BBR Weekly Character Discussion #3: Falco

[Shugo-Chan]

lol snake vs co. midwest has tons of ics i hate it thats why i use mk for em. falco vs ics is doable but rly hard even played perectly

 

[OverLade]

lol snake vs co. midwest has tons of ics i hate it thats why i use mk for em. falco vs ics is doable but rly hard even played perectly

That makes sense because Lain developed the ICs metagame there early (just like NJ has a ton of MKs and FL has tons of Snake players).

I guess that's partially why regional differences lead to bias often....Because the effectiveness of characters vary region to region.

 

[Shugo-Chan]

Haha what you say redhalberd is very true. midwest is full of wario and ics.

 

[Notra]

Haha what you say redhalberd is very true. midwest is full of wario and ics.

It's a good and a bad thing. There aren't Many falcos, so no one knows how to against him. But there are alot of char that reck falco in the MW. I honestly don't know how uve done it shugo. Maybe Ohio is better. MI is hell, winners finals are ********, cause ur playing the best icee or debatebly the best pika. And there's judge the falco slayer too.

 

[swordsaint]

imo falcos tier placement shouldn't reflect how common his bad match ups are. a tier reflects how good that character is in comparison to the rest of the cast, and not how frequently any one character will play a single bad match up because of other (players) character choices.

the number of bad match ups, including good matchups, and the degree upon which he loses/beats them should mostly determine a characters placing. not that a particular falco player might get lucky in one tournament from lack of his bad matchup.

my opinion.

 

[M@v]

My recent icys encounters:

MLG orlando i ran into one. Won 2-1


/Hope i faced BR's wario/Icys. Lost 3-1(losers finals)

 

[Shaya]

scoot.

Ganondorf has an infite on wario from one grab.
Technically one grab from ganondorf is a guaranteed death on wario (ignoring pummeling out and all the connotations of it).
Not just that, but Ganondorf can easily time wario out by getting him to 300% before killing him.

"Feasibly" Wario may have issues with ganondorf. But what are the chances of ganondorf ever showing up to get in wario's way?
How common characters are in tournaments is definitely an indicator of character viability. Otherwise it would just be purely about match ups only.
And that would mean

1. MK
2. Marth
3. Snake
4. Dedede
5. Diddy Kong
6. Game & Watch
etc

things aren't that simple.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth doesn't have the 2nd best match-up you biased *****

and ROFL @ GWs position

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Marth definitely has the best or second best overall matchup data. That's been a given since like, forever.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

OK, you guys can keep on thinking like that ROFL

Just think about it: If Marth had the second best match-up's HE WOULD BE THE SECOND BEST CHARACTER. MK doesn't hold only him back.

 

[Notra]

Yes.. Have u ever checked the match up chart?

It's just marth is a harder char to be consistent with.

 

[Shugo-Chan]

ik what you mean about mw notra. blue rogue tries to cp me with ics a lot and artys done it too -_-. and yah ive always thought judge was rly good vs falco..hunger said it was his counter but ive been judges only falco loss

 

[MetalMusicMan]

OK, you guys can keep on thinking like that ROFL

Just think about it: If Marth had the second best match-up's HE WOULD BE THE SECOND BEST CHARACTER. MK doesn't hold only him back.

Yes, he would be the second best char on our tier list-- IF we went strictly off of matchup ratios (many games do this). We don't do our list that way though; we have a bit more "gray area" taken into account, rather than straight matchup numbers-- and that's fine, it's just how we do it. There's not really a right or wrong method.

Having the best overall matchup data just means that you have the best average. You'd be surprised how much not having any truly bad matchups does for your overall average in a game like Brawl, where pretty much every character has a few of them.

 

[Shaya]

Hey gheb, isn't Marth almost the most successful tournament character in Europe?
Why you think he so bad?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sorry to deviate from the topic, but is this not a falco thread? Why not try to keep marth discussion to when he comes up later. I too am very interested to know myself where Marth fits. I mean, it seems that with so many good match-ups going for him, it seems like he should have a very good chance at winning or placing high in tournaments, but it does not seem to be reflected in that. I cannot fathom what other characteristics might be holding him back apart from maybe the bad match-up with MK and stages. Or perhaps it is that in combination with unskillful marth players in relation to other characters.

But, I know I cannot go discussing in it in this thread because the focus should be Falco instead of trying to correct people with the proper facts as this thread discussion is heading towards.

However, is there really much else to discuss? Falco seems to be stuck in 3rd/4th place for now until Diddy, Marth, etc. are discussed in more detail. The faults of single character discussion and the rules of having to stay 'on topic'.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Aight, I'll keep it until the Marth discussion comes up.

 

[Marcbri]

Marth is the second best character in the game, and without mk he's obviusly the best char.

lol.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Marth doesn't have the 2nd best match-up you biased *****

and ROFL @ GWs position

True dat

Marth definitely has the best or second best overall matchup data. That's been a given since like, forever.

Not many people have actually studied this game, me included for the moment. Just because it's been given forever or "agreed" upon doesn't necessarily mean it's true. People accept other opinions too quickly w/out actually finding the information out for themself.

Yes.. Have u ever checked the match up chart?

It's just marth is a harder char to be consistent with.

The match-up chart doesn't mean anything. It's practically out-dated and a lot of it is based on opinions w/out much factual evidence. That, and Brawl is still new, so some players don't have enough experience to base their opinions on. This can be said for a lot of character match-up charts.

 

[M@v]

I've been holding this in a while, but I can't take it anymore. Gheb you are the biggest thinks-he-knows-it-all poster on the ENTIRE BOARDS. You disagree with almost everything, almost as if your word is law, yet you fail to put little to no facts, especially based on proven data and results, to back up your claims. Stop posting like an idiot. How many tournaments have you been to? Your posts make you look like your a theory-crafter that never goes to tourneys. If that's the not the case then I apologize for saying that, but the way you post makes you look like that.

 

[OverLade]

Diddy has better matchups than Marth.

Do something.

 

[Denzi]

WHY THE **** ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE TIER LIST IN THE ****ING FALCO DISCUSSION THREAD!?

Just take it somewhere else guys, there's no point in arguing about it here anyway.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mav, I've been to LOTS of tournaments. But I'm not from the US so that auto-exculdes me from being knowledgable about Brawl. You win. GGs

 

[Shaya]

Diddy has better matchups than Marth.

Do something.

Screw you man. Luigis and Peachs get at me.

Really should wait for marth discussion.

 

[SlashTalon]

So uh how bout that Falco?

Anyway, to me, I think Falco just falls to having so many stages "counterpickable" against him. If this game only had FD, BF, SV, and like Yoshi's or PS1, Falco would be used much more IMO. But alas it doesn't so every time I get taken to Rainbow Cruise, Del fino, and Lylat I risk having to use my UpB just a bit more often.
In this argument I would also say characters like Marth and MK have less stages that really hamper what makes them good as a character as a whole. Stage counterpicking should definitely be taken into consideration when talking about where a character ranks in this game. Falco's speed, power, and versatility at any range really helps his character, but some of his tough matchups are not helped by some stage selection. And yeah beating MK or Wario on RC is possible but its a totally different match then if you faced them on Battlefield.

And to argue against my own point characters like Snake definitely have stages that work against them (work with me here lol) its just he aint givin a **** and will kill you at 90%(maybe 4 good hits? not including grenades)

Is it safe to say:
Snake<DDD
Falco>DDD
Profit?

 

[M@v]

Mav, I've been to LOTS of tournaments. But I'm not from the US so that auto-exculdes me from being knowledgable about Brawl. You win. GGs

Read my post correctly please. I said you post LIKE you don't know anything. I dont know if you actually do or not.


AND LOL what does being from the US have to do with anything?

 

[Denzi]

AND LOL what does being from the US have to do with anything?

First of all recognize his sarcasm. Secondly, we do have a (significantly) better Brawl scene than Europe.

And third, QUIT ARGUING ABOUT NOTHING IMPORTANT

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Lol.

Someone didn't read Ally's blog or check how Ally just didn't get first in our low tiers event D:

 

[BluB]

I hope Ally won't get 1st in singles either
*Wish I could be there >.>*

 

[Ussi]

If there are not as many MKs there compared to a USA national, i wouldn't be surprised

 

[Darkmusician]

MK is too be feared, he does not discriminate!!!

 

[Notra]

Lol.

Someone didn't read Ally's blog or check how Ally just didn't get first in our low tiers event D:

ally doesnt get first here either. San does.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And third, QUIT ARGUING ABOUT NOTHING IMPORTANT

The thread has gone to the public Denzi, it's beyond repair now. Besides, the thread has served it's purpose since they are on week 6 now.

 

[Denzi]

The thread has gone to the public Denzi, it's beyond repair now. Besides, the thread has served it's purpose since they are on week 6 now.

I hate to just see things fall off like that though.

 

[Vlade]

Falco's only BAD matchup is Pikachu.

Agree/disagree?

 

[Denzi]

Agree. The other ones are just difficult.

 

[OverLade]

Falco's only BAD matchup is Pikachu.

Agree/disagree?

Marth/MK/ICs.

 

[M@v]

Marth/MK/ICs.

Marth is probably 55:45 Marth, 60:40 at worst. MK is even in the current ruleset imo, with mk having an advantage on some cps. Icys yes.

 

[I Dair You]

Sadly even a scrubby ICs player that can't even 0-death can shut down Falco. Dthrow can chain grab Falco to like 70% =/

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Falco can potentially become 3rd on the tier list. His strong points are his side b, lasers, jab, CG and spotdodge. His weaknesses are his fall speed in the air which makes him very prone to juggling because falco has no disjointed moves in the air or stalling moves (like fox's shine) that make it harder to read him in the air, all he has is airdodge and dair, both which can be very telegraphed. While is illusion is very good both offensively and recovering, his up b is horrible meaning falco can never be too low or he will be gimped.
I think falco only loses to Pikachu and ICs, but both matchups are very winnable.

To summarize I would say his strongest factor is his defensive play with his lasers/side B/spotdodge, with his weakness being his predictability when being juggled or recovering. Falco needs either a stalling or disjointed move in the air (Foxs shine, wolfs bair).
I also think Falco goes even with Marth and MK (MK with proper rules in effect)

 

[SlashTalon]

The Marth Matchup entirely depends on how well you know how to zone effectively against a quick-long reaching character.

Knowing how you can damage him in your first 0-50% is a big concept too. That way if he manages to get a grab (Spacing!) on you at 0%, the free 45% (or potential kill) is him trying to catch up. That, and as always: safely recovering.