BBR Weekly Character Discussion #3: Falco

[Vlade]

I think Snake is a worse matchup than marth from my experience (which you can call pathetic since I live in Australia, but anyway). That statement could also attribute to the fact that I'm doing the snake matchup wrong too.

Ice Climbers technically shouldn't be that bad, you just have to play close to perfect and just adjust your playstyle a lot. MK is really difficult because of his gimping potential which can just ruin you when you're one stock up.

But yeah Ozz basically summed up why Falco won't be #1 (I kinda doubt he could be #2, but you never know) because these weaknesses, although manageable, can be very costly in the outcome of a match. Falco gets juggled too easily and his vertical recovery is very very bad which we've already been through. If Falco accidentally buffers an airdodge offstage while falling he is dead and it is very likely you've lost the match because of something silly like that. I used to think that killing with Falco was also a huge problem but by learning to play patient at high %s you can get around that. It would really help if he had snake's utilt though :S

I like Falco and choose to play him because he has nice ground mix-up options (though not as potent as snake's) but can also bait the opponent into doing certain things very well. Things like jab, ftilt, grab, and charged fsmash are very fun to use to confuse the opponent when you're up close.

EDIT: Wow @ Slashtalon posting here!

 

[Shaya]

Hey Vlade, money match sometime soon? :D

 

[Vlade]

I've gotten bad at brawl because I haven't really played in tournament for a while

But come to Perth and we'll MM ^_^

 

[DEHF]

MM Vlade a REAL game Shaya, like rock paper scissors.

 

[Notra]

tbh, falco has no problem killing at all when hes played right. The best example would be DEHF vs Chu at pound4 i think? though Chu lived til like 200 somehtin like every stock, falco really didnt have a problem getting him there. at 200, 230s we are a killing machine.

Falco is bad at killing early, however he is good at camping and racking up damage fast. +in the air we have frame traps. So there really is no big killing problem.


Also please stop saying icees **** for reasons like the match up is easier for them. cause thats not what its about. However, i honestly think icees may be a little harder than we think when both chars play perfectly just from the new stuff i see lain trying to sharpen up on at our MI smashfests. But i think thats more a problem for everyone vs icees, not just falco. =P

 

[solecalibur]

Ics and Pika hard counter falco get over it, your character has two bad MUs both 65/35 the way you guys are describing your problems

My character doesn't even have the much trouble with 60/40 Mus or "55/45" mus

You guys seem Very VEERY stubborn about it, Looking at results I've seen Falco's lose to ICs and Pika left and right

I believe choice did take a game off espam but a game not a set lol

Falco is very overrated but is hard countered by technical characters ,











But its brawl
LOL

 

[Denzi]

Falco loses hard to Pika.
IC's are by all means beatable, it's just that playing them requires a drastic change in playstyle, and not every Falco can adapt within the set. SK92 and Larry have both gone near even with Lain, the best ICs out there. Yes it's much easier to just pick MK (and a lot of Falcos do (Shugo)), but that doesn't mean that Falco can't win.

 

[dainbramage]

Ics and Pika hard counter falco get over it, your character has two bad MUs both 65/35 the way you guys are describing your problems

My character doesn't even have the much trouble with 60/40 Mus or "55/45" mus

You guys seem Very VEERY stubborn about it, Looking at results I've seen Falco's lose to ICs and Pika left and right

I believe choice did take a game off espam but a game not a set lol

Falco is very overrated but is hard countered by technical characters ,











But its brawl
LOL

Never post here again.

 

[swordsaint]

Never post here again.

I agree.

Ice Climbers are beatable with Falco when you know all the tricks of the trade.

 

[solecalibur]

>.> I present an argument and I get kicked out
Muahaha
Point taken

~cya

 

[I Dair You]

Well, youve surely proven Solecalibur's point on the Falco boards being stubborn. Dude states an opinion on a forum (a place for opinions), and gets jumped on? And for the record, I agree with ICs and Pika hard countering Falco. Seriously, Falco CAN win vs ICs, but its 10X harder for the Falco to win. All the IC player has to do is bait a phantasm or force a grab ONCE, and that stock is gone.

 

[p8nted]

Well, youve surely proven Solecalibur's point on the Falco boards being stubborn. Dude states an opinion on a forum (a place for opinions), and gets jumped on? And for the record, I agree with ICs and Pika hard countering Falco. Seriously, Falco CAN win vs ICs, but its 10X harder for the Falco to win. All the IC player has to do is bait a phantasm or force a grab ONCE, and that stock is gone.

Never post here again.


Look at the match-up from IC's perspective. You have little range and no projectile (ib's don't really count). Falco is shooting you with lasers to keep you sync'd up and your movement speed is slow so you can't approach quickly. Air speed is slow and your grab range is one of the smallest. If Falco lasers all day and phantasms sparingly and unpredictably, ic's have a tough time even getting close to falco let alone actually landing something.

solecaliber was shut down so hard because he made a post without doing his research first.

And for the record I've played 3 ice climbers in tournament during my last two tournies and beat all of them. The outdated opinion that IC's hard counters falco is something scrubs cling to because they don't know how to play the match-up so they decide to blame the character for their loss.

 

[I Dair You]

NO **** Falco can camp ICs. It doesnt matter bc in a match with 2 competent players, Falco WILL GET GRABBED. Ive come hella close to beating good ICs, however all of Falco's work with lasers and side b is negated from ONE grab.
tl;dr- If your'e Falco, and you beat an ICs player, YOU ARE THE BETTER PLAYER OVERALL.




BTW done posting here, I guess its much easier to tell ppl to "not post here anymore" instead of logically stating facts as to why they're right.

 

[p8nted]

NO **** Falco can camp ICs.

This is a big deal dude. Being able to camp means being able to avoid getting grabbed. Also, even if falco gets up close to ic's his quick jab, seperating throws, and a ftilt that is safe on their shield are all effective tools for preventing the grab. You're right it can all be undone with one grab but that's why it's 45-55 instead of 70-30 falco's favor.

 

[solecalibur]

solecaliber was shut down so hard because he made a post without doing his research first.

The outdated opinion that IC's hard counters falco is something scrubs cling to because they don't know how to play the match-up so they decide to blame the character for their loss.

Hold on lemme go to my research lab in my basement

Oh yeah , Every video I've seen a IC is more then callable of countering a falco , Im well aware a better player will beat someone even in the MU (sometimes by a small margin) but if you have read some of these past BBR threads they are giving lain **** for not stepping up his game yet he still can beat the best falco

And for the record I've played 3 ice climbers in tournament during my last two tournies and beat all of them.

I've beaten more falco's then I've lost to that doesnt mean squat (ZSS main =D )
and I dont see a mention of WHO you beat and HOW, if you'd like to enlighten me

 

[p8nted]

wb sole. Look, everything we would talk about has already been covered. If you're still confused or have questions go here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263777

 

[solecalibur]

Im not arguing with a statue
~cya once again

 

[gunterrsmash01]

The fact that Falco has a bigger grab range than ICs helps a lot lol, and simply walking up to ICs and grabbing them does wonders... You just can't be impatient vs ICs and have to make right decisions when they are seperated..

 

[swordsaint]

First thing - we have no problem with discussing Ice Climbers with you. It's how you said it in the first post, insulting our opinions and then finishing on 'but it's Brawl LOL". That was just silly.

Anyway, there are a couple of reasons why Ice Climbers, have the advantage over Falco, but a huge one like unknowledgable players will suggest. As for that DEHF statement, he's actually not good at that matchup, and will plain out admit that.

1 - We can 0-death Ice Climbers as easily they can us. Providing our grab hits Popo, any dthrow laserage will hit Nana, rubberband her back to Popo and hit her with another dthrow laser, because of this effect they stay desynced, and the chain grab spike completely kills Popo without a chance.

2 - Laser tricks, it can be difficult to out spam Ice Climbers with this because of desynched Ice Blocks. ( I don't care what anyone says lol. desynced Ice blocks can go under lasers, and still have the newer ones block the lasers) The laser tricks include lasering Ice Climbers Squall hammer when they're forced to recover. Not a difficult to understand concept, but you'll only be hitting one Ice Climber with that move. THE OTHER ONE will just go in to freefall for FREE SMASH/SPIKES/GRABS etc. A rather decent kill set up, and it's good whether we get Popo or Nana.

3 - Reflector tricks, can work the same way as laser on Squall Hammer, but this option here also removes Ice Climbers blizzard tricks. You can hit Ice Climbers with it, and reflect the blizzard for more damage than their blizzard is worth.

4 - Camping (not spamming) is very effective on Ice Climbers. We need to play patient and wait for openings. Ice Climbers bad range specifically makes a camping Falco hard to hit/grab.

5 - Jab, particularly good and ALMOST unpunishable. Very good as an alternative GTFO to Phantasm, because both Ice Climbers will have a hard time not getting hit. So even if you hit one, it's relatively safe in not being 0-deathed.

6 - Quite useful, don't overuse it, don't underuse it. It can be punished hard yes, but hence the don't overuse it. Most phantasms are going to be safe in this matchup providing you haven't gotten predictable with it. Mix up cancels well, and you'll be well on your way to winning. Ice Climbers to successfully punish a Phantasm have to commit. Properly cancelling can lead to some good mindgames. A successfully landing phantasm pops Ice Climbers up in to air, a very good tool for seperation when used properly.

7 - Using the clock. When you have a substantial lead, and Nana is dead, DON'T kill Popo. Waste the clock via camping, and other weak attacks like grabs that won't kill, things that specifically will make Ice climbers take a while to return to Falco.

8 - Use your platforms properly. Uair isn't particularly safe on shield from below, no matter what you think, up smash and (rarely) grabs can land on this. In either case, any uairing on your shield from below while jumping etc means you've conditioned Ice Climbers. Falco can beat Ice Climbers in the air.

9 - Ftilt is safe on shield. As well as most cross ups.

10 - We can spike Popo out of his tether with relative ease using either dair/or bair stage spike.

Overall that's most of Falco's side of the matchup. Most of Ice Climbers side is prediction for grabs, as he doesn't have much else here. It's just that Falco can be grabbed easily when you do the wrong things. It's a HARD matchup, but don't let that confuse you between what's a HARD matchup and what's a BAD matchup. They're quite different, because Falco has the tools to keep this matchup relatively even/close it just takes more effort on his side. More effort doesn't always mean it's bad.

A bad match up implies that character DOESN'T have the tools to deal with the matchup.

I hope this is enough for you to understand our perspective on this matchup now. And I apologise for the rudeness before.

The 10 tips to beating Ice Climbers with Falco.

 

[solecalibur]

Mind me asking what the ICs have against falco?
What still makes it 5+ in IC's favor , What you stated is either theory or just wonderful on paper or even correct

The lol brawl was about not many ppl being technical , dont take it offensively even though i was a bit harsh lol

 

[swordsaint]

Everything I said is completely viable and correct. The reason Ice Climbers are still +5 is because that despite all our positives, one chain grab can undo all our work. The thing is though, that with all positives in the match up, it's enough to break down Ice Climbers positives for a near even match. It's just that with the way Falco moves around, something as simple as his airspeed can SOMETIMES make it difficult to avoid a grab, but suggesting that it's impossible or anywhere near a hard counter is insane when we have all these benefits in the match up.

Ice Climbers chain grab
Blizzarding our recovery (phantasm usually has a hardtime making it past blizzards at the edge)
ice block desyncs mostly beat our lasers
sopo chain grab can potentially kill us too (dthrow x * > dtilt at edge)
They can deal heavy damage using dsmash to beat phantasm

but as i said, for the most part, they dont have a huge AMOUNT of positives on falco, but the ones they do have are rather substantial.

again i still feel it's necessary to remind people a hard matchup isn't always bad.

 

[Notra]

Well, youve surely proven Solecalibur's point on the Falco boards being stubborn. Dude states an opinion on a forum (a place for opinions), and gets jumped on? And for the record, I agree with ICs and Pika hard countering Falco. Seriously, Falco CAN win vs ICs, but its 10X harder for the Falco to win. All the IC player has to do is bait a phantasm or force a grab ONCE, and that stock is gone.

No what u two are saying is why u need to gtfo. LIKE ****ing a million times we said the match up isnt a matter of hard or easy. but at top lvl.

If u two idiots cant see that then take a hike and eat a dyck. im tired of dumb *****. leave please if ur gonna say more dumb**** w/o reading.

We arent stubborn, cause about a year ago icees did **** us. however falco has SIGNIFICANTLY raised its percentages vs icees. just cause all havent learned the mu doesnt mean the ratio sucks.


**** GTFO RE RE'S

 

[swordsaint]

No what u two are saying is why u need to gtfo. LIKE ****ing a million times we said the match up isnt a matter of hard or easy. but at top lvl.

If u two idiots cant see that then take a hike and eat a dyck. im tired of dumb *****. leave please if ur gonna say more dumb**** w/o reading.

We arent stubborn, cause about a year ago icees did **** us. however falco has SIGNIFICANTLY raised its percentages vs icees. just cause all havent learned the mu doesnt mean the ratio sucks.


**** GTFO RE RE'S

No need to get so worked up Notra. It's easy enough to handle things maturely. Sometimes the boards can be a bit messy and hard to find good information on things. So why not just explain it to them like I did?

 

[solecalibur]

my only presented argument now, is every character's work is destroyed after one grab vs the IC's, I assume since the MU was bad b4 so the "bad" is still present , like a predicted Foward b is putting you into a blizzard wall , A lazor missed at the ic block so you get hit / stunned into grab instead, I dont think lazor is hard to aim but still how much of the human factor is missing if any?

Is there any good video examples I can see with BOTH sides winning with BOTH sides doing something right?

I can carry this to general discussion , I just wanna get some thoughts on this MU , as swordguard has convinced me ICs can deal with snake , Im just looking at some others MUs that where crap awhile ago and what makes this one better as I have seen things like this on paper but not really executed on the battlefield per say

 

[swordsaint]

I'm not really sure who's particularly good at the matchup. DEHF's mentioned a player who he thinks executes the match up better, but I can't remember the name.

And yeah, that's part of the reason it's still in Ice Climbers favour, it's just that even though Falco has tools, he's still slightly easier to be grabbed than most character. It was so bad before, saying it's changed so much would be massively wrong. It has changed, but only to the fact it's closer to even than a hard counter.

Anyway, I don't think a predicted forward b would be a blizzard wall. I've seen Ice Climbers who predict this properly pivot grab it. (seriously they pivot grab and beat out the phantasm as it's moving) but thats precisely why you shouldn't abuse it in this match up.

the laser isn't hard to aim, but the ice blocks very easily block the laser and travel under. the deync ice block has a better rate of fire.

We can deal with Ice Climbers it's just hard. As I've stated though, hard isn't necessarily bad. It just means the options we have to deal with the matchup take more precision. A bad matchup implies we dont have the tools.

I can't think of anything right now that I haven't said already, but you'd be better off asking DEHF who he thinks is better at the Ice Climbers match up than him. I don't think he's bad at it though, he goes pretty even with lain. the best of the two characters going even is a good indication, but it's not the whole reason. (unless someone has surpassed lain, like meep)

I think the reason you don't see this on the field a lot though, is because some Falco's are still fearful of Ice Climbers. They either resort to other characters, or have already given up hope on defeating Ice Climbers that they just don't try to learn it.

I was once one who saw the matchup pretty harshly in Ice Climbers favour, but having been told a bit of the matchup by DEHF, and my own experimentation with his advice and my own tactics I've really seen the light here. It's such an overrated matchup I think, and it's just people having the disbelief that a MU can change from hardcounter to even.

I also find it kinda ironic that swordguard convinced you of that, and now swordsaint is the one trying to convince you of this lol.

but yeah, if you can, ask dehf who he thinks is better at the match up, otherwise you're gonna have to refer to dehf videos to convince you. which it doesn't truly sound like it will.

 

[Notra]

This is a teeny bit aged and Lain has figured out how to stop me now cause i told him before MLG, but if i put the effort back in brawl I could get back to new strats and trixies to fool him.

but anyway, ignoring the trip, this is how falco can whoop icees ***. Its all consistency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh4SO9MhHqM



and this video, the first time i ever played a good icee climbers at my first real tourney shows what happens when u suck vs them and try to improvise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxpKM-VNmoI&feature=related

 

[swordsaint]

Nah dude, you phantasmed way too much in that first game. They were hella predictable. The fact Lain didn't punish them so easy is just stupid. He didn't even punish a Fair on shield. He didn't desync ice block either, and he upsmashed you after a sopo chain grab to the ledge when he should've dtilted and KILLED you.

Like no offense Notra, but that first match is a REALLY bad example considering Lain was doing the dumbest things and not punishing the most predictable and easy things.

You should've grabbed him heaps more to waste the clock too. Grabs, pummeling as long as possible then using throws that make it so it takes a while for Popo to catch up to the running Falco is a better option to just purely running away. Grabs won't kill.

Lain even suicided his first stock, and dropped a chain grab. Oh, he also suicided his second stock.

You grabbed Nana and he fsmashed twice letting you switch your grab to Popo. It was easily the dumbest thing he did.

You got a lucky trip with Nana as well which helped you escape it.

Even when your phantasms hit, you didn't use them much to attack and seperate the Ice Climbers.

How were you even winning? The ending was the most lucky thing for you too with nana tripping again, and then YOU suicide.

No offense Notra, but that's a bad example if I ever saw one. That's easily the worst I've ever seen Lain play.

The second match, despite being heaps older, Lain played heaps better. You tried the same things and he just ***** them. You could see him covering those phantasms in the old game more than in the newer one where it looked like he didn't give a **** and was just pointlessly aggressive.

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh4SO9MhHqM
is why i am arguing the MU , Lain was stupid as hell in that match

I'll just lurk some where else to find it

 

[Notra]

Nah dude, you phantasmed way too much in that first game. They were hella predictable. The fact Lain didn't punish them so easy is just stupid. He didn't even punish a Fair on shield. He didn't desync ice block either, and he upsmashed you after a sopo chain grab to the ledge when he should've dtilted and KILLED you.

Like no offense Notra, but that first match is a REALLY bad example considering Lain was doing the dumbest things and not punishing the most predictable and easy things.

You should've grabbed him heaps more to waste the clock too. Grabs, pummeling as long as possible then using throws that make it so it takes a while for Popo to catch up to the running Falco is a better option to just purely running away. Grabs won't kill.

Lain even suicided his first stock, and dropped a chain grab. Oh, he also suicided his second stock.

You grabbed Nana and he fsmashed twice letting you switch your grab to Popo. It was easily the dumbest thing he did.

You got a lucky trip with Nana as well which helped you escape it.

Even when your phantasms hit, you didn't use them much to attack and seperate the Ice Climbers.

How were you even winning? The ending was the most lucky thing for you too with nana tripping again, and then YOU suicide.

No offense Notra, but that's a bad example if I ever saw one. That's easily the worst I've ever seen Lain play.

The second match, despite being heaps older, Lain played heaps better. You tried the same things and he just ***** them. You could see him covering those phantasms in the old game more than in the newer one where it looked like he didn't give a **** and was just pointlessly aggressive.

desync ice blocks dont really work. u can lazer in between, and u just gave me reasons why the mu is better then ppl say. stating things i did wrong.

the second match was my first real tourney, so i mean i didnt even really know what to do. Also i was sand bagging cause i knew i was gonna lose. If u watch other matches in the set ull see taunt battles. I just wanted to show why ppl THINK icees **** falco. And as predictable as those phantasm looked they werent. phantasm is alot harder to predict than it seems. I didnt use any patterns, just waited for openings. But i mean it doesnt work anymore anyway. The point is to show that falco has the tools. Not that I couldve done better, i already knew that.

 

[swordsaint]

desync ice blocks dont really work. u can lazer in between, and u just gave me reasons why the mu is better then ppl say. stating things i did wrong.

the second match was my first real tourney, so i mean i didnt even really know what to do. Also i was sand bagging cause i knew i was gonna lose. If u watch other matches in the set ull see taunt battles. I just wanted to show why ppl THINK icees **** falco. And as predictable as those phantasm looked they werent. phantasm is alot harder to predict than it seems. I didnt use any patterns, just waited for openings. But i mean it doesnt work anymore anyway. The point is to show that falco has the tools. Not that I couldve done better, i already knew that.

lol thats a fair point, it can definitely be played a bit better than what you did and I'm glad you didn't flame me as hard as others. You took that well, and if you already thought the matchup was decent I hope these a re a few thins you can take on board a little.

And yeah I was aware of the second match being your first, I didn't watch the rest of the set so I'm not really sure how serious you were, but to deny you were sandbagging would go against something that's objective which I don't like doing. Good point though that it's a good example why people think he ***** Falco.

Well, I kinda thought they were, but I guess different people pick up on different things. I'm sure Lain would've picked up on things I didn't....a lot more. I just found that if he covered a second phantasm every time he would've done a lot better. You always used your phantasm from the edge too, and did this little "run backwards slightly offstage phantasm back through" almost every time, but I'll admit that when you used it a majority of the time it was safe, just that Lain didn't cover it as well as he could've since multiple phantasms were a mixup of choice you had.

You make a good point with saying that it wasn't to show you could do better. It definitely showed you had the tools. (no matter how poorly executed.trolololol)

but yeah, you're cool and shiz

question though. I've had NO such luck timing the lasers to beat desynch ice block, in fact I'd say it's the most irritating thing in the match up for me...I guess I don't know the height. I'll be sure to stop thinking it's impossible now, and that just adds one more thing Falco has against Ice Climbers rather than vice versa.

@sole - all the things we said are completely viable, as bad an example that reccording was as a 'proper' set. some of the tools that can be employed were showcased there. Lain was playing badly. Notra was playing badly. there were so many luck based things going on in that match, and misreads that don't really matter. a misread isn't a character flaw or positive. it's a player flaw.

JUST A PS. Notra - I think you would've won that game should Lain have not suicided twice. He was not showing any such intention before those accidental ones and his clock was getting slaughtered lol.

 

[Vlade]

MM Vlade a REAL game Shaya, like rock paper scissors.

Pure match of epic mindgames

 

[SN Viper]

i am going to start learning the ic falco match up at first was just like alt marth but i still lost so i might as well take it with my bread and butter any tips besides dont get grabbed

 

[pulse131]

dont do what i do and footstool to escape. at least not more then once or twice. when you footstool one the other can reverse grab you before you leave their head :S