Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Luigi player]

I should know that indeed. Thank you for the information; I was wrong about the hopelessness of that matchup. I suppose that DK v King Dedede is indeed just about the bottom of the barrel, but saving just one character is still really dubious to me.

I'm not scared of any of those characters, and I never use King Dedede in a serious match for any reason. I just generally don't like banning anything unless it's absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about 40%; are you absolutely sure you're mashing to break the grabs as fast as humanly possible and not just "really fast"? Are you even studied in the optimal patterns for button presses to break grabs? This is my basis for assuming the percentage is that high by the way:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=218847#p218847

Wario broke out after the pummel at 114%, and I doubt that Mario, Luigi, or Samus have convoluted grab break mechanics that make them unable to do the same (it would be really weird if all characters weren't the same in this case). I think the solution is to just mash faster.

Well Dedede can do this to Luigi some D3 mains said that in the Luigi vs Dedede Matchup thread I think. Maybe you can get out, but why would you really come out after juts one pummel attack? Is Dededes really THAT slow?

Also, I don't really want to destroy my controlsticks if you could also just get this banned...

But honestly I don't care that much for Luigi because I use him very rarely (because he sucks), just sometimes for counterpicks.

The infinite on DK really sucks though and should be banned.
I think it should be banned for all others too, but DK has the best reasons so if some people really don't want this banned for the others I guess I can't convince you since you're too stubborn.
I btw also think that his other chaingrabs on the other characters are really unfair too, but everyone just wants to play gay and doesn't care I guess.

But DK/Bowser/others shouldn't be an automatic loss if your enemy has Dedede... that really ****ing sucks.


I really hope this is getting banned, because then I can use DK way more often. And I'm sure some other DK players will show up more often too if this is gone (probably the other characters too).

I can't see any bad thing from banning it, only that Dededes have to work normally to get the win and don't just grab someone and win like that... well that's how it should be.

 

[bobson]

Against Mario, Luigi, and Samus, King Dedede cannot regrab if his down throw is too stale. I have heard varying reports about how high their percentages have to be before a pummel is forced, but I'm pretty sure it's over 100% if Mario, Luigi, and Samus mash really, really fast (which we can reasonably expect them to; it's something the players of those characters can just improve at). I don't understand why this is so frequently ignored; King Dedede can't even transition to the normal chaingrab against Luigi so in some circumstances Luigi is going to be better off being grabbed than, say, R.O.B. (a typical chaingrab victim). All the "infinite" means against them is that King Dedede has the abiltiy to rack extra damage per chaingrab against Mario and Samus and an option to chaingrab Luigi at all, and it means that he can kill from a grab a bit lower than against other characters (but really nothing drastic). I fail to see how it's even remotely bannable in these three cases.

69% is the latest I can break out of a pummel into a dthrow with Mario at 1/4th time in training mode mashing buttons as hard as I can while also controlling Dedede. If it's possible to break out after that, you would need to start mashing buttons four times as fast as what I was doing there immediately after getting grabbed, something I can't see happening consistently enough in a tournament atmosphere to be in any way reliable. Dedede can get in five dthrows before he has to pummel to keep the infinite going, which is 33% with staling factored, placing the limit for a grab meaning a death for Mario at roughly 37%.

Despite this, I am obviously biased, and that GIF with Wario breaking out 114% disagrees with my findings, so there must be something more to the situation. Are grab-break mechanics different for each character? Has anyone tested for the most effective way to break out of a grab?

 

[Matador]

......*Facepalm*.....

Tell me...where were you reputable pro-ban posters a few months ago when Patsie and I NEEDED you on this **** thread? Geez, seems like everyone flipflopped to the other side the minute I decided that the infinite really wasn't THAT bad.

Basically, I'm against the infinite being banned because:

1.) There are ways around it. Be it mashing the controller during the grab, playing the edge so that you can auto-break the grab, counterpick, or play the matchup mostly by baiting grabs.

2.) People are currently beating the infinite in tournament settings. BUM, Boss, Fear and Xyro (I think) are a few names.

3.) The reasoning for banning THIS infinite would apply to so many other currently exploited mechanics in the game that give certain characters huge advantages over others but are still beatable.

Honestly, if the infinite WERE banned, I wouldn't mind too much. But it's just a bad matchup at this point.

Melee CGs =/= Brawl CGs. Same deal with the infinites. You can DI and try to screw up your opponent when you're the victim of a CG in melee. That's not the case with Brawl. That is a HUGE difference.

The difficulty of performing the D3 infinite does matter, I dont see why people are trying this argument. If it's easier, more people can/will do it. That being the case with D3, someone could easily CP D3 and have a pretty decent chance at winning vs a pro Luigi or Samus because of how easy the infinite is. You can't just CP with the ICs and think you'll have a good chance vs anyone if you don't know how to use them.

 

[bobson]

2.) People are currently beating the infinite in tournament settings. BUM, Boss, Fear and Xyro (I think) are a few names.

Do you have videos of these players VS King Dedede mains?

 

[zwab]

Lemmee explain when banning happenes

It Happens when some ****** thinks he is the game god but he cant beat sommat so he deems it unfair brainwashes the masses into tinking the same way so that it gets banned.

Seriously people don't add ANOTHER ******** rule to this game

 

[Jupz]

i dont think that the infinites should be banned, i play a lot of dk and marios and well it helps me a lot but i mean its not the whole game... well maybe it should be banned but at least keep bowsers one. but i dont want it banned because its fun

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

**** the ban, what of Ddd players. Just not do it? Might not help the random cpers but maybe they should be able to beat a none ddd main anyway? I duno this arguing just isn't getting anywhere and I'm getting tired of hearing the same points over and over.

 

[Master Raven]

Don't get hit, hurr hurr hurr hurr

Let's use that as an excuse for not banning MK

(I'm neutral as far as MK is concerned btw)

Also, does Bum travel OOS? His state has infinites banned.

Lemmee explain when banning happenes

It Happens when some ****** thinks he is the game god but he cant beat sommat so he deems it unfair brainwashes the masses into tinking the same way so that it gets banned.

Seriously people don't add ANOTHER ******** rule to this game

If it breaks the game in such a ******** fashion then it should be banned, and I'm sorry to say it but Brawl is a pretty busted up game.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

loop loop loop, thats all this thread is turning into now lol.

@Matador
yeah where were they in that thread that lasted for months on end lol. the last bit even was exclusively on DDD, mostly me (antiban) v. Veggi(proban).

oh well if its decided banned great for those 5 characters in that one matchup. if not oh well cp ftw like the low tier mainers do. although one thing i'd like to say is anyone saying "don't get grabbed" is a poor argument and w/e bs they put after that, i hope your considering what the whole "not get grabbed" means and not just requoting it and taking it literally. and have a banhappy day everyone

 

[Naucitos]

as a luigi main,

Variations of this sentence are probably the most annoying thing i've seen on any ban threads. Why do most people not get that it does NOT matter who they main? How can you rationally use that even for motivation to try to get this banned?

Brawl is a fighting game, and a competitive game is not supposed to cater to the whims of every character and save them whenever they are in a bad situation. In this case it isn't even that bad of a situation, which most of you seem to be ignoring anyway.

 

[choknater]

Banned or not, will have no affect on DDD tournament results LOL!

The only character who can really benefit from this is Luigi, because he can't be normal-cg'd. Dedede destroys Luigi without cgs lol.

Oh well.

Just saying. I am neutral to this issue.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Banned or not, will have no affect on DDD tournament results LOL!

you mean MKs

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

*waiting for M2K and Aero to help ban*

 

[Luigi player]

Lemmee explain when banning happenes

It Happens when some ****** thinks he is the game god but he cant beat sommat so he deems it unfair brainwashes the masses into tinking the same way so that it gets banned.

Seriously people don't add ANOTHER ******** rule to this game

Uh, and you are? Mr. 3 posts who has no idea >_>

Let me explain to you when banning happens: If something is really unfair and makes it impossible to beat someone.

You can't just tell people they're not allowed to play this character because he has no chance at winning... that's just ********.

 

[choknater]

You don't have to respond to that stuff lol.

Heck, I didn't even have to respond to your post.

But hey, if it really frustrates us that much, then perhaps that's good enough motivation.

<--- my post count is too good

 

[bobson]

Variations of this sentence are probably the most annoying thing i've seen on any ban threads. Why do most people not get that it does NOT matter who they main? How can you rationally use that even for motivation to try to get this banned?

It gives the idea that they have some experience with it and know what they're talking about. If you look closely, the people pushing for the ban are primarily mains of King Dedede or the affected infinite characters; those who have first-hand experience with how much bull**** it is.

 

[HeroMystic]

I do find it kinda amusing that even the DDD mains says it should be banned.

 

[Matador]

Do you have videos of these players VS King Dedede mains?

Nope, sorry. Just word of mouth and tourney results.

Variations of this sentence are probably the most annoying thing i've seen on any ban threads. Why do most people not get that it does NOT matter who they main? How can you rationally use that even for motivation to try to get this banned?

Brawl is a fighting game, and a competitive game is not supposed to cater to the whims of every character and save them whenever they are in a bad situation. In this case it isn't even that bad of a situation, which most of you seem to be ignoring anyway.

Except...if you are pushing for the ban and you use Snake...and haven't even touched any of the unfortunate 5...

You see where I'm going with this?

 

[choknater]

We feel guilty when we do it.

 

[SothE700k]

Uh, and you are? Mr. 3 posts who has no idea >_>

Let me explain to you when banning happens: If something is really unfair and makes it impossible to beat someone.

You can't just tell people they're not allowed to play this character because he has no chance at winning... that's just ********.

Wow, you're the ******** one for judging off of POSTS. n00b.
I have 400+, does that make me the most intelligent smasher alive? No. You have over 1,000, and you're not even giving us half a good argument. I swear I think someone is playing this video over and over and over because I'm seeing the same argument from you.

 

[Jenkins]

ban that garbage. it should only be limited to like four successive grabs. Any more is totally unfair, and you could do it with your eyes closed.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Let's see.......it's a glitch....it requires no skill.....it completely destroys some characters just like what Pit's arrows does to heavyweights at the very least.

Yep. Ban it.

 

[Luigi player]

Sorry smashboards was down and I didn't know I already posted.

 

[Sudai]

El oh el time.

Let's see.......it's a glitch....

lol no

it completely destroys some characters just like what Pit's arrows does to heavyweights at the very least.

So you also advocate a ban on Pit's arrows?


I'm not pro or anti-ban, just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of this guy's post.

 

[cutter]

ban that garbage. it should only be limited to like four successive grabs. Any more is totally unfair, and you could do it with your eyes closed.

How is the infinite "unfair" when it only works on 5 characters? Just counterpick. D3 infinites only a small handful of characters. Plenty of characters are not victimized by the infinite.

 

[Luigi player]

Wow, you're the ******** one for judging off of POSTS. n00b.
I have 400+, does that make me the most intelligent smasher alive? No. You have over 1,000, and you're not even giving us half a good argument. I swear I think someone is playing this video over and over and over because I'm seeing the same argument from you.

lol, but 3 posts really is not much >_>

Like I said it's not understandable for me that some people don't want this banned o_O

1. It takes no real skill
2. it completely destroys some characters and nearly making them useless
3. it's an infinite that WILL happen unless you're a spacing GOD and WAY better than your opponent.

This stupid **** should be banned.

This is argument enough and some people seem to be too dumb to get that it is really stupid and should be banned (which I can't understand because how can someone be such an egoist?).

Even if there would be ways around it I'd still want it banned because it's too unfair.


Like seriously how stupid can one be to not want this banned? I just don't get it in my head.
It just makes no sense...


The only reasons you could have to not want this banned:
1) You have a problem with those characters and want an easy and gay way to win over people who are better than you WHICH SHOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE
2) You're an egoist and/or hate those characters

 

[Master Knight DH]

El oh el time.

What's so funny.

lol no

lol glitch spprt3r

So you also advocate a ban on Pit's arrows?

Pit's still viable close range to begin with. And the arrows are just over the top. Why Sakurai didn't make them have a severe knockback penalty when he put in anti-knockback armor is beyond me.

I'm not pro or anti-ban, just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of this guy's post.

You're ridiculous. I should not be cheated out of working with heavyweight options when I don't get allowed suitable practice against other players. EVER.

 

[Calixto]

How is the infinite "unfair" when it only works on 5 characters? Just counterpick.

They can counterpick, but they'd still be playing with a first round loss handicap. It discourages the use of a characters like DK and Bowser that are completely viable otherwise. Causes Metagame stagnation. How is this not ban worthy?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How is the infinite "unfair" when it only works on 5 characters? Just counterpick. D3 infinites only a small handful of characters. Plenty of characters are not victimized by the infinite.

The point? "Choose Another Character" should not be a valid argument of any sort.

I am personally torn on this argument, but if had to choose a side I'd go with ban. Making 5 characters useless against a DDD counterpick is just wrong. Add the massive grab range, and you've got a broken technique. The ice-climbers argument is faulty because of the need for both climbers, and the low grab range of the both of them. DDD is good enough without this technique.

I also saw that it was mentioned "(char X) demolishes my char (char Y), ban (Char X)". This argument can only really work if it's an auto-kill as soon as it starts and works by 0%, has a good range, and virtually no startup lag.

 

[Hive]

2.) People are currently beating the infinite in tournament settings. BUM, Boss, Fear and Xyro (I think) are a few names.
.

this isn't right...
BUM was discussed a lot, earlier in the thread and i've talked to xyro...
the matchups between these characters and DDD is completely imbalanced...
ask any of them.

from CO18 concerning this...

Dedede's down throw has a set knockback its not a grab release.

IC's infinites are taken into account yet they are only mid-high tier and barely do good at tourneys.


A Person does not have to MAIN Dedede to simply change their c-stick to grab in which case its almost IMPOSSIBLE to mess up meaning no matter who a DK/Mario/Luigi/Samus/Bowser main plays they WILL lose because all the opponent has to do is set their c-stick to grab and its over.

This needs to be banned and it's ********. It helps me and I know its ********. It is impossible for me to lose to any character that can be infinited if I choose to infinite them basically.

So you're telling me its completely unfair for lets say me to play BUM somewhere where infinites arent banned and I would win 99.9% of our matches yet im not a better player than Bum because he wins basically every tourney he attends(with d3's infinite banned) btw.

Which just proves these characters would be much more tourney viable if it wasnt for d3's infinite.

I dont think its a coincidence that basically the best/ one of the best tourney placing people with the given characters DK(BUM) Mario/Luigi(Boss) Bowser(Vex) are all from places where infinites are banned otherwise they would have little to no chance of winning ONE match for that matter if someone just decided to change their c-stick to grab and infinite them with d3 unless they changed characters which is unfair to them.

 

[cutter]

They can counterpick, but they'd still be playing with a first round loss handicap. It discourages the use of a characters like DK and Bowser that are completely viable otherwise. Causes Metagame stagnation. How is this not ban worthy?

Umm... this happened in Melee too.

 

[Calixto]

It happened in Melee but in melee these losses were not guaranteed. There was still skill involved, you could still try, still have a chance.


In Brawl, you get grabbed three times and you lose. There is no chance for you to win, unless the other player spontaneously combusts into flame while he is grabbing you.

 

[Andurian]

Well... there has been quiet of bit of chatter about this ^^.

If MetaKnight gets banned, then I am for this ban as well. If MetaKnight does not get banned, then I am against this ban as well. I do not want to get into the MetaKnight ban at the moment so I won't.

I am a Lucario Main and Falco secondary (although I suck with Falco still ^^). I can chain palm and chain grab Dedede, so overall the chaingrab/ infinite doesn't both me all that much. It does force players to learn a new character when they fight with their main, but that kinda makes sense. If you are going against your worst match-up, you swap characters. You also generally know who does the Dedede chaingrab during the double-blind pick.... watch their earlier matchs/ listen to the complaints against then. Dedede players tend to pick Dedede. That should give you a hint if you need to be careful .

Something that could be done is to limit the amount of times Dedede is allowed to chain grab the enemy... say 3-4 (change the number of times if you have a problem with it) times. It still deals damage but now the Dedede will have to regrab again. It is still possible.... but it makes it slightly harder.

Eitherway, it doesn't really effect me that much.

 

[cutter]

It happened in Melee but in melee these losses were not guaranteed. There was still skill involved, you could still try, still have a chance.


In Brawl, you get grabbed three times and you lose. There is no chance for you to win, unless the other player spontaneously combusts into flame while he is grabbing you.

Matchups like Sheik vs. Bowser and Marth vs Ness/Kirby/M2 were pretty **** close to impossible.

 

[Gindler]

Let's see.......it's a glitch....it requires no skill.....it completely destroys some characters just like what Pit's arrows does to heavyweights at the very least.

Yep. Ban it.

Boy you really hate pit's arrows

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I didn't read all the 24 pages, so sorry if i missed that: How can you ban Dededes infinite without banning ICs infinite?

 

[Luigi player]

Well... there has been quiet of bit of chatter about this ^^.

If MetaKnight gets banned, then I am for this ban as well. If MetaKnight does not get banned, then I am against this ban as well. I do not want to get into the MetaKnight ban at the moment so I won't.

I am a Lucario Main and Falco secondary (although I suck with Falco still ^^). I can chain palm and chain grab Dedede, so overall the chaingrab/ infinite doesn't both me all that much. It does force players to learn a new character when they fight with their main, but that kinda makes sense. If you are going against your worst match-up, you swap characters. You also generally know who does the Dedede chaingrab during the double-blind pick.... watch their earlier matchs/ listen to the complaints against then. Dedede players tend to pick Dedede. That should give you a hint if you need to be careful .

Something that could be done is to limit the amount of times Dedede is allowed to chain grab the enemy... say 3-4 (change the number of times if you have a problem with it) times. It still deals damage but now the Dedede will have to regrab again. It is still possible.... but it makes it slightly harder.

Eitherway, it doesn't really effect me that much.

I'm sure you don't have the expierience getting infinited. If you choose DK or a other character that can be infininted you have like 0 chance at winning.

There should be CPs, but they shouldn't destroy each other unless the game will be "who will have the better character at the blind pick" because after that everyone could CP the other player and beat him.

It's only with those characters like that but it's so ****ing unfair to them.

I didn't read all the 24 pages, so sorry if i missed that: How can you ban Dededes infinite without banning ICs infinite?

The ICs have sooo bad grab range and it's REALLY hard with them to grab their opponent. You also can knock Nana away and you're out of trouble. It also at least takes a bit of skill and there's a high chance your opponent will not be doing it completely perfect to make it a grab to KO thing.

With Dedede you just stand there and grab and dthrow. I takes like no skill and completely shuts down those 5 characters. This is TOTALLY broken and should be banned because even if the infinited character player would be much better than the other one he will probably still lose if the Dedede just knows how to chaingrab you.

 

[cutter]

*post*

Just to let you know, it was quite unfair for a character like Bowser to fight Sheik in Melee.

We don't ban stuff just to increase a character's viability; we ban stuff when said thing becomes the ONLY viable option in tournament play.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

this is the kind of things that happen when you play badly designed games competitively
either pick the play to win everything is fair side
or pick the casual i don't care who wins i just wanna have fun side

BRAWL IS NOT FUN AT A COMPETITIVE LEVEL UNLESS YOU REALLY LIKE CHAINGRABS, CAMPING, LEDGECAMPING, AND HAVING BADLY BALANCED CHARACTERS LIKE METAKNIGHT AND SNAKE PWN VIRTUALLY ALL THE CAST.

 

[rehab]

I like Snake.