Banning Dedede's infinite? FIRST POST UPDATED WITH VIDEO.

[Inui]

I think you can just DI towards Sheik and jump/footstool out of it. I've done that consistently with a lot of characters.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

This thread is getting funny now.

"It's your fault for playing a character that you like!"

Come on. Seriously, get better arguments.

When you get it down to the nitty-gritty, that's what it sounds like. But we're also trying to say this: Adapt or get wrecked. Before this bull**** came up, I was trying to cultivate a solid secondary in either DDD or G-dub so I can avoid instances where Fox is put into a really bad match-up.

I don't know anymore. It seems like this community is getting way too ban-happy. I agree with Cutter; if your character doesn't fare well in the match-up, pick somebody who will. Nothing against your main or anything, but you do what it takes to win.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Flayl]

I think you can just DI towards Sheik and jump/footstool out of it. I've done that consistently with a lot of characters.

Okay I guess I'll stick with Pikachu then. It's lame how Pikachu can get a chaingrab on Fox to 80% and DSmash him out of it. Are we gonna ban that too?

Where are you going to draw the line between bad matchups and banned techniques?

 

[Deleted member]

Is Sheik still proven to have that FTilt lock on Fox where she can up smash him out of it?

it works 30-100 into upsmash, you can DI to make the sheik miss, and if she does miss she gets punished much harder (half weight). for utility, they aren't comparable. DDD's infinite is far superior.

edit: as long as you can do something about it, I wouldn't want it banned.

 

[Inui]

Okay I guess I'll stick with Pikachu then. It's lame how Pikachu can get a chaingrab on Fox to 80% and DSmash him out of it. Are we gonna ban that too?

Where are you going to draw the line between bad matchups and banned techniques?

Pikachu's grab range is tiny and his d-throw isn't infinite and you can DI out of the d-smash easily. Dedede's grab is gigantic and his CG is infinite or nearly infinite and takes away an entire stock with his opponent being able to do nothing.

It's obvious which is more broken here.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ohhhh. Okay. I see where you're going with this, Flayl.

Well, what about the grab-release that Snake gets on Wario? That's a free up-tilt every time. And if it's fresh...woooooo! I can get a kill on a stage at relatively low percents if it has a low ceiling! Yesssssss.

What about the numerous grab releases Ike has on some members of the cast? Hey, free jab combos for me!

Or the vaunted (and disproved? I'm not sure) grab-release infinite Marth has on the Mother boys?

o.o

Edit: **** it. I should pull an Inui and main Snake.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luigi player]

When you get it down to the nitty-gritty, that's what it sounds like. But we're also trying to say this: Adapt or get wrecked. Before this bull**** came up, I was trying to cultivate a solid secondary in either DDD or G-dub so I can avoid instances where Fox is put into a really bad match-up.

I don't know anymore. It seems like this community is getting way too ban-happy. I agree with Cutter; if your character doesn't fare well in the match-up, pick somebody who will. Nothing against your main or anything, but you do what it takes to win.

Smooth Criminal

Of course there should be counterpicks. I even play Diddy as my main and DK is just a secondary, but...

You just don't want to understand.

You have absolutely no chance at winning here.
The game should not be like that.

It should NOT be a 100% loss.

I can't understand how people don't want this banned...

 

[YagamiLight]

Why did Link get annihilated by sheik again?
I think that's one of those matchups that people just kinda made up results for. Sheik doesn't have all the advantages such as cgs and such on link that she has on the other characters o_O.

Since I don't think anyone answered this, I may as well.

Sheik CGs Link to a percentage close to 90% then she gets a tilt->aerial.

Ouch.

 

[Inui]

None of that stuff renders those characters unusable nor are they infinite.

Gay stuff =/= gamebreaking. Being able to grab release into some move doesn't ruin competitive play. Infinites do.

 

[Flayl]

Pikachu's grab range is tiny and his d-throw isn't infinite and you can DI out of the d-smash easily. Dedede's grab is gigantic and his CG is infinite or nearly infinite and takes away an entire stock with his opponent being able to do nothing.

It's obvious which is more broken here.

Are you admitting that Pikachu's CG is also broken?

Or are you saying it's possible for Fox to win against Pikachu even with such a huge advantage? Let me clarify here: We all know it's possible for Fox to win the matchup, but would anyone in a tournament pick Fox in a double blind, play against a Pikachu that knew what it was doing, and win?

 

[Deleted member]

Since I don't think anyone answered this, I may as well.

Sheik CGs Link to a percentage close to 90% then she gets a tilt->aerial.

Ouch.

If you full DI the downthrow and ftilt away from sheik, ftilt sheikslap at higher damages isn't a true combo. Link can also escape the CG reliably at about 70%. That leads into a sheik slap, yeah, but it's not nearly as bad.

 

[HeroMystic]

When you get it down to the nitty-gritty, that's what it sounds like. But we're also trying to say this: Adapt or get wrecked. Before this bull**** came up, I was trying to cultivate a solid secondary in either DDD or G-dub so I can avoid instances where Fox is put into a really bad match-up.

I don't know anymore. It seems like this community is getting way too ban-happy. I agree with Cutter; if your character doesn't fare well in the match-up, pick somebody who will. Nothing against your main or anything, but you do what it takes to win.

I understand this point completely and I have no qualms about it. It's just that Brawl ultimately is a quite shallow competitive game where rules that can be applied easily and 'dealt with' cannot be applied as easily in this game.

I doubt this'll get banned and I don't count on it, but I'd take a sigh of relief if it does, and then I'll eat cake.

I got my secondaries for Mario's hardest match-ups, but they're with characters that I enjoy playing as (Ike and Link. Nice secondaries, I know). And that's ultimately why I go to tournaments. Not nessecarily to "win", but to go against the odds. Taking the easy way out proves nothing for me.

Just my philosophy on the whole "counterpick" situation.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you full DI the downthrow and ftilt away from sheik, ftilt sheikslap at higher damages isn't a true combo. Link can also escape the CG reliably at about 70%. That leads into a sheik slap, yeah, but it's not nearly as bad.

Followed by a needle gimp to poor Link, providing the slap sends his heavy Hylian *** off of the stage.

>___>

Smooth Criminal

 

[YagamiLight]

If you full DI the downthrow and ftilt away from sheik, ftilt sheikslap at higher damages isn't a true combo. Link can also escape the CG reliably at about 70%. That leads into a sheik slap, yeah, but it's not nearly as bad.

Ah alright, not as bad as I thought (Though still pretty terrible).

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member]

Followed by a needle gimp to poor Link, providing the slap sends his heavy Hylian *** off of the stage.

>___>

Smooth Criminal

you could just DI the CG towards the middle of the stage when you can escape it, then you either get out or take the sheik slap and DI down and towards the stage and tech and you won't go off of the stage.

Just saying.

By comparing anything to DDD's CG, other than possibly wobbling, you're making poor comparisons. even wobbling, which is also horribly broken, requires both ICs.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

you could just DI the CG towards the middle of the stage when you can escape it, then you either get out or take the sheik slap and DI down and towards the stage and tech and you won't go off of the stage.

Just saying.

There's that.

>______>

*throws in the towel.*

Smooth Criminal

 

[Inui]

Are you admitting that Pikachu's CG is also broken?

Or are you saying it's possible for Fox to win against Pikachu even with such a huge advantage? Let me clarify here: We all know it's possible for Fox to win the matchup, but would anyone in a tournament pick Fox in a double blind, play against a Pikachu that knew what it was doing, and win?

No, it's not. Pikachu getting the grab in the first place is hard and he can't kill Fox at the end of it no matter what he does because you can DI out of his d-smash and survive a u-smash.

I should pull an Inui and main Snake.

I main Snake for certain teams situations and to counter Meta Knights because Snake wins that match-up. Otherwise, I main Meta Knight. Snake is really the best answer to Meta Knight. I prefer going Snake than doing the ditto. Hell, I prefer going Marth or Dedede over doing the ditto...

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

I main Zelda. I routinely play half of the top 10 melee players in the world. I do fine vs them. I'm not *****ing.

Sheik is good. DDD is dumb. I can't see the comparison.

Very random: Umbreon, I really like your Zelda. : ) You were an inspiration to me in Melee ^.^ thanks.


Anyways,
I understand your argument.

One cheap tactic is making 5(4 if you can do the Samus-->Zamus taunt change) characters completely unplayable.

I have absolutely nothing against banning the infinite other than:

1)people being ban-happy,

2)it is hard to establish a happy medium that is easily enforcable. Bowser can be walked to the edge, unless you ban that too. How far does Dedede have to walk before he can grab again? Does he have to run? There seems to be alot of gray area.

3)And lastly, should we accept that some characters **** other characters?
Is there really no (non-DDD) matchup worse than Dedede-Mario?
Is it "fair" that sheik will win against a ganondorf? (I'm very sorry Choknater for keep bringing this up >.<)

I agree with alot of what you say Umbreon, and you have ALOT more tournament experience than I have (as well as insight in the game). I do hope you can understand my thoughts, however. I think it is Uber-lame. Is it ban-worthy?

 

[Inui]

100/0 matches shouldn't be allowed to exist.

There's a difference between getting ***** and having a 0% chance of winning.

 

[Flayl]

Just to note that I'm mostly playing devil's advocate for the reason that I don't want to Brawl to go down the "slippery slope". There are plenty of characters who have a very low chance to win against others due to some technique.

 

[Deleted member]

from my above posts, you can see that if there is ANY feasible way at all to defend yourself from a tactic, I will NOT ban it. I voted to ban wobbling and this and nothing else. I voted to keep MK legal against almost everyone I talk to.

1. I am not ban happy, and neither is the SBR. I don't see why banning this could possibly hurt the game. It's not like Bowser and DK are amazing vs DDD without the infinite in the first place.

2. I would say to just eliminate the CG on these characters completely to avoid the middle ground. No 2 consecutive downthrows on them. Everyone else he can CG normally, no changes. Downthrow to backthrow, no changes.

3. yes. horrible matches are bound to exist. elements that remove game play or do something easily and indefinitely have no place in competitive play. The only 3 things that have this in smash at all are melee freeze glitch, wobbling, and this. So why is only one banned?

I take that back, you can combat the freeze glitch by doing smash DI up when hit during the glitch to the point where the ICs can't grab you, then call your opponent to the ref and have him disqualified for stalling by not killing you. You can combat the freeze glitch better than DDD's downthrow infinite.

This has to go. Really.

 

[Flayl]

2. I would say to just eliminate the CG on these characters completely to avoid the middle ground. No 2 consecutive downthrows on them. Everyone else he can CG normally, no changes. Downthrow to backthrow, no changes

Huh? I don't think that's the right way to go around it. Banning the regular CG against those 5 changes the matchup a LOT. it would make more sense to say the only way you can regrab an opponent in hitstun after a DThrow is to dash first.

 

[Luigi player]

Just to note that I'm mostly playing devil's advocate for the reason that I don't want to Brawl to go down the "slippery slope". There are plenty of characters who have a very low chance to win against others due to some technique.

No. Only Dedede has this 100 % win advantage.

I don't know about Ganondorf vs Shiek but Ganon is imo the worst character in the game so it isn't THAT bad.... it also isn't 100 % that he loses. Ganon can beat Shiek at low % and Shiek probably has to have Ganon up to 150%.

So it isn't an infinite or a zero to death thing... that's not the case with Dedede.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

I'm sorry to have insinuated it, I didn't mean to direct the "ban-happy" at you, or even any of the back room. It just seems like a common sentiment on the brawl boards.

and you gave a good answer for number 2, that is a clear way to enforce the ban.

And if the smash back room does decide to ban this, then I would support them. I know i sound like a sheep saying that, but I don't personally feel like I have the knowledge or authority to say that dedede shouldn't have those **** matchups.

Thank you for your reply,
I believe I have nothing left to argue in this thread.

"No. Only Dedede has this 100 % win advantage." -Luigi Player
If dedede isn't mario's worst matchup, then he can't be 100-0.

 

[Anther]

Since I don't think anyone answered this, I may as well.

Sheik CGs Link to a percentage close to 90% then she gets a tilt->aerial.

Ouch.

I really don't think that worked. XD. Plus the said counter... but I don't think sheik cgs link XD. Pika and others yes, Link no...

Anyways, yall are *******s ;p. Who brought up grab releases x.x. Number 1, MK isn't getting banned, and this thing completely removes characters. If I really wanted to win against a luigi player that takes was going even with my Pika, I don't think I should auto-win a match by choosing DDD and infinite grabbing them. I'm just not seeing the logic most of you are throwing out there.

2. I would say to just eliminate the CG on these characters completely to avoid the middle ground. No 2 consecutive downthrows on them. Everyone else he can CG normally, no changes. Downthrow to backthrow, no changes.

I think the dash one is acceptable, as it works... and I'm pretty sure that's how regions that do ban it handle it.

Also, fox avoiding pika's cg until he gets about 40%, removes the dthrow cg from play, and the rest of that matchup isn't that bad for him at all. Just the early parts of every stock sucks really badly, but he's better at baiting pika into mistakes than the other way around.

 

[Flayl]

Anther, what is your experience with Fox players?

 

[Calixto]

If the community seems more ban happy these days it's simply because these types of things in Brawl are more common.


In Melee there were no mindless infinites that removed entire stocks. CGs were something you had to get the timing down, and even then DI still factored in making them usable but not the unstoppable, ridiculously easy powerhouses they are in Brawl.

 

[FreakingMethodiC]

I really don't think that worked. XD. Plus the said counter... but I don't think sheik cgs link XD. Pika and others yes, Link no...

Anyways, yall are *******s ;p. Who brought up grab releases x.x. Number 1, MK isn't getting banned, and this thing completely removes characters. If I really wanted to win against a luigi player that takes was going even with my Pika, I don't think I should auto-win a match by choosing DDD and infinite grabbing them. I'm just not seeing the logic most of you are throwing out there.


I think the dash one is acceptable, as it works... and I'm pretty sure that's how regions that do ban it handle it.

Also, fox avoiding pika's cg until he gets about 40%, removes the dthrow cg from play, and the rest of that matchup isn't that bad for him at all. Just the early parts of every stock sucks really badly, but he's better at baiting pika into mistakes than the other way around.

This is true ZSS and Pika vs fox isn't a horrible situation for the fox player. With ZSS if the Infinite D-smash thing happens late in a stock like above 30 ( i don't remeber the %) fox pops up to far for it to work. Same with pika after a certain percent being 30 or 40 fox can get out of the CG.

 

[Naucitos]

I think it's unfair for a dedicated main of the infinited people to have to switch just cause of an infinite, even if they are clearly better than the DDD player.

I was going to wait and finish reading the whole topic before responding to this, but if its anything like the MK topic (Which it is, alot.) this has been rebrought up at least 15 times.

If you are all clamoring over this, why does no one propose to ban yoshi's infinite on wario? Should the wario mains be forced to counterpick, like the mario/luigi/dk/samus mains? Yes. If they want to win, and they don't think they are good enough to not get grabbed, they should counterpick. Balancing the game does not mean being some kind of nanny and stopping characters from bullying certain other characters.

For that matter, falcos laser can bounce people across FD, or wall infinite, should we ban falcos laser if people are off the floor, or in hitstun, or near a wall?

(Ice climbers have been covered)

 

[Naucitos]

Huh? I don't think that's the right way to go around it. Banning the regular CG against those 5 changes the matchup a LOT. it would make more sense to say the only way you can regrab an opponent in hitstun after a DThrow is to dash first.

What if the D3 sucked, and grabbed before dashing? Would he forfeit for missing the control stick? If not, how would the leniency work? Would he be allowed to miss once per grab? per match? If they are allowed to miss at all, then people will "Miss" the maximum number of times, and that doesen't stop the fact that its possible to miss multiple times, you sure as hell aren't going to forfeit a match for missing the z button, whhy would you forfeit for missing the control stick?

EDIT: SOrry double post >_<

 

[Anther]

I'd just release the grab if I douched it up, and the timing and technique is kinda way different.

 

[Naucitos]

Avoiding being a douche isn't a problem if you are trying to judge, there has to be a set leniency or none, or else people who are playing to win will abuse the leniency as much as possible. Unless you want to try banning "Being a douche".

None of that stuff renders those characters unusable nor are they infinite.

Gay stuff =/= gamebreaking. Being able to grab release into some move doesn't ruin competitive play. Infinites do.

Does that count yoshi's grabs on falco/ganon? 40 to 3 or 4 grabs and a kill isn't an infinite, it travels practically a quarter of the stage, but it still ends a stock

 

[Flayl]

Timing is very different, anybody who does a standing chain grab instead of a dash chain grab did it on purpose. At that point, you call a judge, which will disqualify him if he does it again.

 

[Anther]

By the word "Douching" I meant making a mistake by doing something that's obviously timed very differently. Not to be confused with being a douche and doing it on purpose.

 

[Naucitos]

Sorry, i'm not too well versed in the how tos of his chain grab.

Anther: I figured you meant doing it by accident, but if you can do it by accident and get away with it, you can do it on purpose as well. (Invalidated in this case by the above post, however)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm going to point this out again because I was ignored the first time for no apparent reason. This information is essential to considering the utility of King Dedede's standing chaingrab.

King Dedede only has a true infinite against ONE character: Donkey Kong. No one can deny it; it sucks for Donkey Kong.

Against Bowser, King Dedede creeps forward slowly while regrabbing which means that Bowser can position himself on the stage closer to the ledge to not die when grabbed. It's analogous to the old Marth v Ness chaingrab (Marth actually can't chaingrab Ness if Ness DIs right, but the correct DI was unknown for months so the parallel with it before the DI was known is probably easy to understand). It really is completely terrible for Bowser, but it's not a true infinite and makes the matchup noticeably easier on Bowser than a true infinite would.

Against Mario, Luigi, and Samus, King Dedede cannot regrab if his down throw is too stale. I have heard varying reports about how high their percentages have to be before a pummel is forced, but I'm pretty sure it's over 100% if Mario, Luigi, and Samus mash really, really fast (which we can reasonably expect them to; it's something the players of those characters can just improve at). I don't understand why this is so frequently ignored; King Dedede can't even transition to the normal chaingrab against Luigi so in some circumstances Luigi is going to be better off being grabbed than, say, R.O.B. (a typical chaingrab victim). All the "infinite" means against them is that King Dedede has the abiltiy to rack extra damage per chaingrab against Mario and Samus and an option to chaingrab Luigi at all, and it means that he can kill from a grab a bit lower than against other characters (but really nothing drastic). I fail to see how it's even remotely bannable in these three cases.

I hope to be able to get my hands on a turbo controller relatively soon to confirm just how soon King Dedede gets a forced pummel. I suppose I could be surprised, but I suspect what will really happen is that I'll establish that it's only forced at some insanely high percentage from which he could have killed them easily in a variety of other ways anyway.

I also repeat that almost everyone is going to count Zero Suit Samus as a separate character from Samus. That means there are 36 characters, not 35. The ratio of characters affected by King Dedede's standing chaingrab is 5/36 in reality, and that's not only lower than 1/7 but treats both the Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Sheik as single characters.

If there's going to be a topic fishing for support on banning this tactic, it really needs to have accurate information in the first post. The first post makes King Dedede's standing chaingrab sound way better than it actually is. Even in the case of DK, is it really the worst matchup? I think I'd rather be on the wrong side of DK v King Dedede than on the wrong side of Captain Falcon v Pikachu. Unless we're talking about "saving" Captain Falcon from that bad matchup too, I don't see why we should consider improving DK in his bad matchup.

 

[Luigi player]

I'm going to point this out again because I was ignored the first time for no apparent reason. This information is essential to considering the utility of King Dedede's standing chaingrab.

King Dedede only has a true infinite against ONE character: Donkey Kong. No one can deny it; it sucks for Donkey Kong.

Against Bowser, King Dedede creeps forward slowly while regrabbing which means that Bowser can position himself on the stage closer to the ledge to not die when grabbed. It's analogous to the old Marth v Ness chaingrab (Marth actually can't chaingrab Ness if Ness DIs right, but the correct DI was unknown for months so the parallel with it before the DI was known is probably easy to understand). It really is completely terrible for Bowser, but it's not a true infinite and makes the matchup noticeably easier on Bowser than a true infinite would.

Against Mario, Luigi, and Samus, King Dedede cannot regrab if his down throw is too stale. I have heard varying reports about how high their percentages have to be before a pummel is forced, but I'm pretty sure it's over 100% if Mario, Luigi, and Samus mash really, really fast (which we can reasonably expect them to; it's something the players of those characters can just improve at). I don't understand why this is so frequently ignored; King Dedede can't even transition to the normal chaingrab against Luigi so in some circumstances Luigi is going to be better off being grabbed than, say, R.O.B. (a typical chaingrab victim). All the "infinite" means against them is that King Dedede has the abiltiy to rack extra damage per chaingrab against Mario and Samus and an option to chaingrab Luigi at all, and it means that he can kill from a grab a bit lower than against other characters (but really nothing drastic). I fail to see how it's even remotely bannable in these three cases.

I hope to be able to get my hands on a turbo controller relatively soon to confirm just how soon King Dedede gets a forced pummel. I suppose I could be surprised, but I suspect what will really happen is that I'll establish that it's only forced at some insanely high percentage from which he could have killed them easily in a variety of other ways anyway.

I also repeat that almost everyone is going to count Zero Suit Samus as a separate character from Samus. That means there are 36 characters, not 35. The ratio of characters affected by King Dedede's standing chaingrab is 5/36 in reality, and that's not only lower than 1/7 but treats both the Pokemon Trainer and Zelda/Sheik as single characters.

If there's going to be a topic fishing for support on banning this tactic, it really needs to have accurate information in the first post. The first post makes King Dedede's standing chaingrab sound way better than it actually is. Even in the case of DK, is it really the worst matchup? I think I'd rather be on the wrong side of DK v King Dedede than on the wrong side of Captain Falcon v Pikachu. Unless we're talking about "saving" Captain Falcon from that bad matchup too, I don't see why we should consider improving DK in his bad matchup.

Luigi can be infinited if his % are 40+. (Which Dedede can easily make if he grabs Luigi once, so 2 grabs= death)
Don't know about the others.

This Dedede thing is still totally unfair and should be banned.

I honestly can't understand how someone wouldn't want this banned. It's just impossible. You're probably so ****ing scared of the character and always use Dedede or something, I can't think of any other explanation...

 

[The Real Inferno]

Ampharos, you should know Captain Falcon found a way out of Pikachu's CG by DIing to Footstool to escape it after the very first throw.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I should know that indeed. Thank you for the information; I was wrong about the hopelessness of that matchup. I suppose that DK v King Dedede is indeed just about the bottom of the barrel, but saving just one character is still really dubious to me.

I'm not scared of any of those characters, and I never use King Dedede in a serious match for any reason. I just generally don't like banning anything unless it's absolutely necessary. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about 40%; are you absolutely sure you're mashing to break the grabs as fast as humanly possible and not just "really fast"? Are you even studied in the optimal patterns for button presses to break grabs? This is my basis for assuming the percentage is that high by the way:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=218847#p218847

Wario broke out after the pummel at 114%, and I doubt that Mario, Luigi, or Samus have convoluted grab break mechanics that make them unable to do the same (it would be really weird if all characters weren't the same in this case). I think the solution is to just mash faster.

 

[chic]

as a luigi main, i would love if it was banned. the whole, "dont get grabbed" thing is just stupid. its just not possible to not get grabbed. ive been in too many situations where im destroying a DDD and keeping my dmg low/doing my best to avoid grabs and he eventually get grabbed and receive 0-100+ dmg with nothing to do about it... that really makes me want to drop brawl sometimes. counter picking to moving maps helps some, but the first map is a nuetral map so he can grab me there, if i beat him once he will pick a map that he can chaingrab me on.