1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Ban coaching

Discussion in 'Tournament Discussion' started by Nihonjin, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    This is why I pointed out that one of my problems with "banning coaching" is I wanted specifics. If "Play him like he's Zelda" isn't coaching, where do we draw the line? If this comment, shouted from a crowd, had the undesired result of changing the tide of a match, how do we quantify it? How do we enforce it?

    I AM against wasting time between matches. I think, beyond coaching, we as a community need a hard-and-fast rule of "You can't spend more than x time between matches in a set figuring out counterpicking." I understand this WILL be difficult to enforce, but it's a good start and can at least be specified and quantified.
     
    randomnerdchris and Phaazoid like this.
  2. Phaazoid

    Phaazoid
    Expand Collapse
    Basket

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,548
    Location:
    Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
    3DS FC:
    4854-6444-0859
    NNID:
    Mr.Grike
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

    And several of these people have been to many tournaments themselves and experienced it first hand. That's enough for me.
     
    Thor likes this.
  3. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    Directly from my first post.

    If you ban coaching, you should ban the crowd too!
    This is a red herring. There’s a significant difference between having a player calmly and directly explaining to you why you’re losing and how to adjust, opposed to trying to filter out good pieces of advice from a roaring crowd. It’s incomparable.

    We can argue about the crowd some other time, but don’t bring it up here because it has nothing to do with this issue.

    It's a separate issue.


    Wait, are you really saying we should allow stalling because it's too hard to enforce?
     
  4. Kneato

    Kneato
    Expand Collapse
    Totoro Joe

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    New Ontario
    That's exactly what I propose be done. It is unreasonable to believe coaching can be completely stopped, but it is possible to minimize its effects this way. No opportunity to kill momentum by leaving your seat to go talk to someone in the crowd. In depth coaching is also prevented if no one sits by the players. Advice may be yelled from the crowd, but at least a player can no longer get stuff like "He keeps doing U-tilt into F-air so DI this way".

    These two things are easily enforceable and help minimize the negative effects of coaching.
     
    Mithost likes this.
  5. Mithost

    Mithost
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Locked in a safe floating in the Atlantic Ocean.
    Oh how I love smashboards
     
  6. Phaazoid

    Phaazoid
    Expand Collapse
    Basket

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,548
    Location:
    Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
    3DS FC:
    4854-6444-0859
    NNID:
    Mr.Grike
    So you're suggesting a complete removal of the players from the tournaments themselves? While this would definitely solve the coaching problem, it brings up another host of problems. First of all, it removes the human element from tournaments. Second, why would anyone pay to go to a tournament at all if they aren't going to see the pros play? Why not just stream from home? That would kill at least some revenue.

    I'm not saying you're wrong. I kinda do lean toward your solution, because I'm not the type to go to tournaments physically anyways. I'm just saying it's a complex issue, with many things coming into play, and there might not be a universally 'right' solution that makes everyone happy on all fronts.
     
  7. Juushichi

    Juushichi
    Expand Collapse
    sugoi ~ sugoi ~

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,523
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Also, to add to the arbitration (and I am not sorry for this, get rekt nerds):

    What about phones and the beauty of 20XX telecommunication?

    Here is a real scenario: Apex 2013 rolls around and I am spectating from my good ol' friend @SoulPech's apartment in Ohio. A particular set comes on --- Ally vs Zhime in Top 8 of Project M. I see Ally struggling to adjust to Zhime tricky and pretty effective style in Game 1 iirc. What people don't know is that I think of Ally and his coach/moral support Xatic as homies and I wanna see MW (as Ally spent most of his time in MI that year) do well. Also that I have loads of experience vs Zhime in particular and vs Zelda in general with online play through many Zelda iterations. I highlight a few short concepts to Xatic and send a text. Now, we know the result of the set (Ally won), but I got a text about 5 min afterwards telling me that Ally didn't need it and Xatic didn't actually tell him anything. This is ok by me, my homie won.

    But what if I had texted Ally personally?
    What if Ally took notes on Zhime ahead of time and reviewed them (as many SF/Marvel players now practice, actually) between matches? Is this a bad thing?
    SHOULD you police this?
    How do you police this in either case?

    I'm almost 100% certain that something similar to this happened before.

    @Nihonjin-senpai?
     
    #127 Juushichi, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    Thor and Phaazoid like this.
  8. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    In my opinion coaching isn't against the 1vs1 rules in the fact that if you compare it with boxing or other kind of sports like that, having a coach between the round and here the sets is legit and yet it´s still considered as a 1vs1 fight: the one who fight have the glory. Of course both side have a coach but not necessarly as competent and yet it is still considered as fair. If the problem of one not having a coach is an issue just ban coach only if one of the player does not have one dońt you think?
    On tye other hand i quite agree with some of your arguments player can sometimes have some disavantages but i think everyone can overcome them with practicing and trying to know more and more smasher.
     
  9. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    because, functionally, they're the same thing, because they can accomplish the same task

    trying to just dismiss it as a "red herring" or "irrelevant" because you don't want to take it too seriously isn't a good look, you know
     
    Thor likes this.
  10. ShortFuse

    ShortFuse
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,523
    Location:
    NJ/NYC
    It would be too draconian to ban coaching before and after a set but during a set (or double set in terms of bracket resets) should be banned.

    Why?

    Because players can't truly sit there and analyze our opponent as well as somebody who is just watching. Picture somebody like Taco, Prog, etc that analyze numbers. They can sit and scout a match. They can say how well they've been LCancelling, what directions they've been favoring when recovering (high, edge, straight), what directions they have tendances of teching, how they DI, how they recover from the ledge, etc etc.

    When we're playing it's impossible to filter all that data, but a coach can tell you what to exploit since they were sitting analyzing their opponent. The best players, as Armada said, have a great subconscious/automatic gameplay so they can split their focus analyzing their opponent. Its a skill that pros need to develop and coaching seriously dampens that.
     
    #130 ShortFuse, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  11. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    Yes, that's exactly what we're suggesting. [/sarcasm]
     
  12. Kneato

    Kneato
    Expand Collapse
    Totoro Joe

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    New Ontario
    Since you seem to love logical fallacies, here is yours.

    I didn't say remove people from the tournament. The two additional rules I suggested are:

    1: Players must remain in their seats for the entirety of the match they are playing.
    2: Spectators must not sit in the direct vicinity of players to ensure no whispered or discreet coaching is given.

    These, I think, are perfectly reasonable and enforceable, and will be effective in cutting down excessive coaching.
     
    Nihonjin likes this.
  13. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    y'all still ignoring one of the points I've made
    that was coaching. that was a tip that was the reason justin wong started to stand a chance. what you're considering "coaching" is arbitrary, and doesn't help much at all to deter what you consider to be an unfair advantage.
     
    #133 trash?, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    Phaazoid likes this.
  14. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    What do we do in scenarios with very cramped venues? I've been to plenty of tournament finals where people are crowding around a TV because that's the only way you're going to watch the match. You're all elbow-to-elbow, players included. In these situations, is it more important to hold to the coaching ban and tell people "Sorry, but only a few/none of you are going to be able to see what's going on in this match," or forget the ban and say "People are still here because they want to SEE this match. Let them sit/stand where they like?"
     
    Phaazoid likes this.
  15. Phaazoid

    Phaazoid
    Expand Collapse
    Basket

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,548
    Location:
    Mr. Sakurai's wild ride
    3DS FC:
    4854-6444-0859
    NNID:
    Mr.Grike
    I'm sorry, I mis-interpreted what you wrote. You quoted my entire chunk of writing and I thought you were agreeing with a different part of it. I'm trying to argue, not insult.

    And those rules are seemingly fine. But there have been several points in this thread that make them not quite perfect. Such as text messages/evolving technology. Such as the fact that at a starcraft tournament players were able to hear the crowd in sound proof rooms.

    Sure, those may be extremes. But that still means it's possible, and if it ever does happen you're in a pickle, because suddenly tournament results could be in question and you have no one you can properly penalize.

    also, gonna quote @Canon - "
    note that, also, coaching doesn't even need to be spoken; in evo 2009's SF4 grand finals, justin wong knew to pick balrog at one point after losing, because someone on the front row was doing boxing motions to him, with the intent of telling him to switch
    "
    @Master WGS also brings up an excellent point - different venues have different accommodations - are we to standardize buildings just for smash tournaments? That would be extremely limiting and strangle the community.



    Doesn't even have to be sound. there's a LOT that can cause accidental quoting.


    I apologize only for mis-reading a post. I legitimately thought that's the part of my post he was agreeing with.
     
    #135 Phaazoid, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  16. Kneato

    Kneato
    Expand Collapse
    Totoro Joe

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2013
    Messages:
    395
    Location:
    New Ontario
    Sorry, I thought you were attempting to twist my argument. No hard feelings.
     
  17. Aldwyn McCloud

    Aldwyn McCloud
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    808
    Location:
    My home (in Italy :D)
    As hard as this may be to enforce due to the language barrier making it hard to assess whether people are coaching or not using their foreign language, I totally agree on every single point of Amsah's post.
     
  18. ToxicSis

    ToxicSis
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1
    If we're going to compare SSB to physical 1v1 sports like boxing or wrestling, it absolutely seems fair to have a coach between games in a set. Personally, though, I don't even agree with coaching in boxing and wrestling in between rounds against the opponent, and both of those are LONG-established sports. Coaching on personal time as well as in between sets seems completely reasonable, but to me, it really does seem to take away from adapting on your own when you have someone next to you giving you advice.

    However, that's just my own opinion. Some people might not think that learning to adapt against your opponents on your own is what playing the game is about. They may be more concerned with just winning, and that's totally reasonable, since that's a major reason we humans compete in anything. I just feel like there should be some regulation to it at the very least.

    For instance, we'll say I took a pretty convincing game off of my opponent, and I'm really feeling some momentum and I can't wait to get into game 2. However, my opponent happens to have a coach available, and he spends a minute or two discussing the previous game with him, meanwhile I have no one to talk to and I'm twiddling my thumbs while I wait for them to finish their discussion so we can get on to the next game. I don't even mind that he's getting some advice, but during those few minutes where I'm not doing anything, I'm just losing momentum that I had gained from the last game.

    I guess my point in that scenario is just that if one person doesn't have a coach, the wait time between games can really get to them since they're just sitting around. I personally believe that there should be rules/regulations on coaching if it's ultimately decided to not ban them, and that may not mean much from a new player looking to get into the scene, but these are just my 2 cents. From a spectator's perspective, specifically when concerning larger tournaments that are on streams, it's really frustrating for a set to last 20 minutes because of a 2-minute hand-warmer and two 3-minute coaching sessions.I like what was done at CEO, where they had a timer for before the set and in between games to make sure that the sets were going on in a timely fashion.

    I know this debate may be more about the ethics of coaching than about the time strains, but ethics are hard to determine between each individual. In the end, people will disagree with it and people will agree with it. Either decision will upset someone.
     
  19. tekkie

    tekkie
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,134
    Location:
    Shpongle Falls
    "during a set the two/four players may only discuss the game/set amongst themselves" this really isnt difficult

    by the way, this is a much bigger deal for smaller/amateur tournaments
     
    #139 tekkie, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  20. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,664
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi

    making rules is easy.

    enforcing them is the hard part.
     
    Master WGS likes this.
  21. tekkie

    tekkie
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    3,134
    Location:
    Shpongle Falls
    if someone doesn't have the stones to DQ/ban people from the venue/future tournaments for breaking the rules they shouldn't be a TO

    get people to help
     
  22. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,664
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi

    Or... we could just keep doing it the same way we have been for 10+ years.
     
  23. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    Those ideas sould be applied by an open minded person so that all smashers can be satisfied, also all tournaments have to agree so of course it's hard if the rules are too drastics or if it don't change much things, in any ways the decision must be shared by most of the players.
     
  24. FreeVelocity

    FreeVelocity
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    13
    Location:
    The Mitten State.
    R.I.P Hungrybox
     
    FirestormNeos, Thor, Ryuma and 5 others like this.
  25. sneakytako

    sneakytako
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Cincinnati OH
    People have already said this, but enforcing any anti-coaching rule seems to be a hurdle.

    Imo it creates more problems than it solves.
     
    Thor and Overswarm like this.
  26. kujibiki57

    kujibiki57
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Messages:
    52
    Notice how most of this thread can be addressed in this single post? In the first page?!

    Create this rule that a person can request no coaching on a set, and voilé, all is fine (except for the crowd, but that's impossible to control, and generally not that noticeable).
    This lets TOs keep some control, since it's very unlinkely that all players will request banning the coaching.

    Personally, I don't really have a problem with coaching, and while it probably isn't anyone's intention in here, people arguing against it seem like those people that won't tell anyone that there's a flaw in something they do just because they don't want to lose or adapt.

    I'll exemplify: I had a friend who, in another fighting game, had a setup that was a 100% guardcrush into a free combo. This setup, however, wasn't actually 100%, and in fact, if you knew how to avoid it, it would never work. He knew this, but hid it from all other players just to have the advantage. Of course, in this particular case, he was much better than everyone else, so it didn't really matter, and he did tell us in the end.
    However, the problem with things like this is that it doesn't help the community grow. Sharing knowledge is what makes the metagame go higher and higher, and coaching contributes to this, though at the POSSIBLE expense of someone's win.


    Also, I'm a HUGE Armada fanboy, but I can't help but feel a bit mad at his post in here, since he has been coached numerous times over the years and yet he comes here saying that people who get coached should lose, wtf bro?

    In the end, getting coached doesn't give anyone a necessary advantage, and if it does, that means that you could just lose anyway.
     
  27. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    Because change is bad and tradition is good! Yaay slavery! Wait..what?

    I already addressed why that's still fundamentally unfair.

    We're not trying to improve the metageme during tournaments. We measure who's the strongest.
    Improving the metagame and sharing knowledge is what smashboards and smashfests, friendlies, FB and anything other than tournaments or money matches are for.

    OMG HE CHANGED HIS MIND! WTF!

    If you don't think it does, you either don't understand what coaching means or you don't understand what an advantage is.
    It's inarguable.
     
    #147 Nihonjin, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  28. JPRyan04

    JPRyan04
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Youngstown
    Why are you guys so against improved gameplay?
     
  29. Shokio

    Shokio
    Expand Collapse
    Netplay 4 Days

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    570
    Location:
    Dallas/College Station, TX
    NNID:
    Shokio
    1) Allow coaching for Top 8 only.
    2) Both parties must agree on coaching, as suggested before.
    3) Put a time limit on coaching. Run an actual 30-second timer in-between matches. Once the timer has run out, coaches must immediately return to their seats.

    Or we could scratch out #2 and just have 1 and 3. As the OP stated, the main problem with coaching is how much time it takes up. The simple solution to that is to just limit the time. I don't see what's so complicated here, but maybe I just think too simply. *shrugs*
     
  30. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    you genuinely just compared a racist tradition spanning over centuries to a ruleset in a game

    europe's best is filled with a bunch of scumbags, apparently. screw y'all, I'm out
     
  31. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    Do you mean that ban coach only at big tournaments would be fine?
     
  32. NickRiddle

    NickRiddle
    Expand Collapse
    #negativeNick

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    9,904

    Coaching banned?
    I'm going to go on stage with a bluetooth headset attached to my phone and call my coach before my match.
    I'm going to have him talk to me as the match goes on without responding at all.
    I've found the loophole, we can ban it.
     
  33. Overswarm

    Overswarm
    Expand Collapse
    is laughing at you

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    Messages:
    21,329

    Excuse me, mr. TO? There's a man in the crowd that appears to be using sign language but I'm not entirely sure because I don't know enough about it. Do we... do we remove him from the venue? We're just not sure.
     
    FirestormNeos and Juushichi like this.
  34. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    Haha that situation would settle all this : what now? Controlling players phones? :D
     
  35. festizzio

    festizzio
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,896
    Location:
    Alhambra, CA
    I haven't read a lot of this, but I personally have no problems with the act of coaching at all. The problem, in my opinion, comes from fairness and equality. If only a few people in a tournament have dedicated coaches, then it creates an unfair environment where those players have an advantage (the significance of which is arguable, however even the smallest difference can lead to lost stocks/matches). If every player had a coach, then you could work as a team, train as a team, and eventually grow as a team. This would be very interesting to see, and I think it would create a much different atmosphere/metagame.

    Of course, the above point could theoretically stem from TOs encouraging coaching. If suddenly coaching was not only allowed, but encouraged, we could see a rise in players searching for coaches within their region. The problem with this is consistency. The player base in each region would be very limited when it comes to players exclusively coaching. We all love to play these games, and it could begin to turn into more of a job than a hobby, as sports coaching is.

    The other end of the spectrum is banning coaching entirely, or at least attempting to ban it. Implementing bans on coaching would be difficult I agree, but something being difficult isn't a solid argument against doing it. We're all smash players after all, we've all learned to play 64/Melee/Brawl and play it well. Even creating clear consequences for coaching mid-match would be more than enough to deter most coaching in tournaments. Shouting, "You shouldn't roll towards the edge!" among a sea of cheers is worlds apart from calmly whispering, "When he's pressuring your shield near the edge, you have a tendency to roll towards the edge," in between or during games. I don't see any problems with crowd coaching except maybe in smaller venues (where it would be a lot easier to warn that person).

    My official stance is that coaching should not be allowed at tournaments, and actual consequences should be explicitly stated in the official tournament rules to deter anybody from doing it. Personally, I hate when people try to coach me during matches, as it subtracts from all the hard work I've put into the game, and takes away from the feeling of accomplishment if I win. That's just me, and doesn't really have any bearing on what I've stated above.
     
  36. NickRiddle

    NickRiddle
    Expand Collapse
    #negativeNick

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    9,904

    My last post was sarcastic, but I guess it got the point across.

    Coaching should be legal between matches with a time limit of 30-60 seconds depending on the size of the event.
    Afterwards, in order to prevent in-game coaching, players should be forced to wear headphones that receive the game-audio, at least at big tournaments.
    No possible way to coach mid-match, while still allowing help.
     
  37. Comprehend13

    Comprehend13
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    34
    I think the time limit should be decreased, but otherwise I agree with this sentiment.
     
  38. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    There is so many good ideas that limit coaching for the game to be fair at tournaments so why people still argue to ban coach? :/
     
  39. NickRiddle

    NickRiddle
    Expand Collapse
    #negativeNick

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2006
    Messages:
    9,904

    Less than 30 seconds? I've taken longer than that to consider a CP choice WITHOUT somebody helping me.
     
  40. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    No, I used the exact same logic to justify something we all agree is horrible.
    Since I can do that, it means the logic is flawed.

    It's a quite effective way to expose dumb arguments.

    Byeeee
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?