1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Ban coaching

Discussion in 'Tournament Discussion' started by Nihonjin, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,855
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    In light of a recent discussion on Facebook I felt the need to properly address this issue (again).

    What I’m against is this:
    Anyone analyzing habits, weaknesses and/or tactics and giving detailed advice to a player during a tournament set in an attempt to influence the outcome.

    When competing in a tournament it’s obvious that contestants should only rely on their own abilities in order to win. I don’t think there is any person who thinks it should be legal to pass your controller to a friend and have him win a match for you. Well, I’m here to argue that coaching is the mental equivalent of handing your controller to someone else.

    To understand why that is we must first answer a simple question. What makes a good player?

    Adaptability
    Everyone makes mistakes. We all get tricked by our opponents. We all get hit. We all make choices that lead to unfavorable outcomes. This includes top players. We’re all human after all.

    So why are they so much better than everyone else? The difference lies primarily in their ability to recognize, especially under stress, their own mistakes as well as that of their opponents.

    Adaptability is by far the most important factor in a match between two people with at least consistent tech-skill (which practically everyone has at this point).

    A perfect example of this is Armada. Someone can dominate Armada the first game of a set and seemingly outsmart him at every turn for an entire game, only to see Armada win the next two games. We’ve seen it happen plenty of times.

    The reason it happens so often is because Armada understands why he lost and adapts his spacing, timing and overall decisions accordingly. He generally doesn’t fall for the same trick twice. So when his opponents try a similar tactic on him in game two, they usually get punished for it. And if they’re stubborn enough to try it again a third time, there’s a 50% chance they’ll get 4 stocked.

    So why is coaching a problem?
    When you coach someone during a game, you’re helping them adapt. If people did this during chess it would be obvious why it’s a problem. Chess is a game of decision making. It’s a mental contest, so if someone’s helping you with decisions, they are playing for you.

    Though execution is clearly an important factor in Smash, decision making is also a crucial part of the game. So if someone is helping you in that aspect, they are playing for you. It's essentially 2 vs 1 at that point.

    If you’re losing because you don’t know how to beat a certain tactic, you should lose. Whether or not your friends know how to beat that tactic should be as irrelevant as whether or not your friends would have hit that Ken-Combo that cost you the set. They’re not the one’s playing.

    Conclusion
    If we as a community value fair-play and want our tournament results to reflect the skill level of individual players as accurately as possible, we cannot allow them to rely on a crutch during tournament sets.

    I encourage TO's to adopt a complete ban on coaching as part of their official ruleset from here on out.


    Lastly, I want to preemptively address a few common arguments I’ve seen.

    If you ban coaching, you should ban the crowd too!
    This is a red herring. There’s a significant difference between having a player calmly and directly explaining to you why you’re losing and how to adjust, opposed to trying to filter out good pieces of advice from a roaring crowd. It’s incomparable.

    We can argue about the crowd some other time, but don’t bring it up here because it has nothing to do with this issue.

    Coaching creates better matches!
    So do steroids. That doesn’t mean it’s fair or desirable.

    Another analogy would be that a student mentor during exams would improve grades.
    Sure, it would. But the purpose of exams is to measure the knowledge and skillset of the individual students. Allowing students to rely on someone else’s knowledge rather than their own flies in the face of why we have exams in the first place. Grades would become meaningless.

    What if both players have coaches? That would be fair, right?
    For it to be fair, every player would have to register with their coach before the start of the tournament. Coaches cannot enter singles. One coach per player and vice versa. This is impractical if not outright impossible given the structure of our community.

    Besides, the goal of tournaments is to find the strongest individual player among the throng of entrants. Even if coaching could’ve been done in a fair and balanced way, it would still be a move away from the skillset that we as a community value and want to test -- execution, adaptability, and mental fortitude. Devaluing adaptability is a step backwards.

    Coaching doesn’t affect the outcome of matches!
    Yes it does. That’s the whole point of coaching someone to begin with.
     
    #1 Nihonjin, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  2. jdmcwombat

    jdmcwombat
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2013
    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Sussex County, New Jersey
    3DS FC:
    0087-2587-4693
    NNID:
    SmashWombat
    If you lack experience in the matchup, it's your own fault. I agree with this post fully.
     
    bellocan, MasterLuigi, otter and 15 others like this.
  3. Slhoka

    Slhoka
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,710
    Location:
    Kourou, French Guiana

    I've always been against coaching. Now, what's hard for me as a TO is to ensure coaching is effectively banned. I don't want to prevent people to have a friend to cheer for them (I mean, I'm often doing that too, even though I'm not telling them anything gameplay-related).
    It's especially hard at European tournaments, as it's hard to make a distinction between coaching and cheering when someone is speaking another language.
     
  4. Mokumo

    Mokumo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 6, 2007
    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Although it is helpful sometimes to get a couple pointers in between games, I can't help but completely agree with you.
     
    EazyDI and Morbi like this.
  5. Keitaro

    Keitaro
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    11,942
    Location:
    Piscataway, NJ
    Always agreed with this personally.
     
    bellocan, | Kailex |, EazyDI and 4 others like this.
  6. Morbi

    Morbi
    Expand Collapse
    Scavenger

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2013
    Messages:
    15,638
    Location:
    Jakku
    After spectating CEO; I would also assert that it should be banned based on the notion that it wastes time, not only does it kill the momentum (which is not inherently detrimental), but you could actually completely and utterly turn the match around with the advice that wasted a minute or two of everyone's time. Wizzrobe is the prime example, as a spectator, it was quite annoying to have to wait a couple of minutes in between matches for him to gather his coaches thoughts on the match-up.
     
  7. MattDotZeb

    MattDotZeb
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2006
    Messages:
    6,122
    Location:
    Quincy, MA
    I probably won't enforce something like this but I'm interested in seeing if this picks up.
     
    youbee and Morbi like this.
  8. Broasty

    Broasty
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2014
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    After attending CEO and seeing the late schedule get put even farther behind (causing Melee losers to be shown in the corner of the room), I really think coaching should be banned, it really should be about the player adapting.
     
    Morbi likes this.
  9. Jam Stunna

    Jam Stunna
    Expand Collapse
    Writer of Fortune

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    6,452
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    3DS FC:
    0447-6552-1484

    This entire argument is based on assumptions and fallacies:

    1) "When competing in a tournament it’s obvious that contestants should only rely on their own abilities in order to win."

    Obvious to who? Why is it obvious? There are plenty of people who think coaching is perfectly fine. It's not obvious at all that players should have to rely only on themselves.

    2) "I don’t think there is any person who thinks it should be legal to pass your controller to a friend and have him win a match for you. Well, I’m here to argue that coaching is the mental equivalent of handing your controller to someone else."

    This is false equivalency. Getting tips from a coach =/= mentally handing over the controller. The mental decisions which truly influence the outcome of the match are made in real time during the gameplay, and those decisions are still made solely by the player. Good coaching helps the player to make the right decision in those moments.

    3) "To understand why that is we must first answer a simple question. What makes a good player?"

    This is begging the question. The OP is not actually asking what makes a good player, but is instead presenting a circular argument about skill to prove the assumption he's beginning with: coaching is bad.

    4) "When you coach someone during a game, you’re helping them adapt. If people did this during chess it would be obvious why it’s a problem. Chess is a game of decision making. It’s a mental contest, so if someone’s helping you with decisions, they are playing for you.

    Though execution is clearly an important factor in Smash, decision making is also a crucial part of the game. So if someone is helping you in that aspect, they are playing for you. It's essentially 2 vs 1 at that point."

    See #2 above. Also applicable to the steroid comparison.

    5) "For it to be fair, every player would have to register with their coach before the start of the tournament. Coaches cannot enter singles. One coach per player and vice versa. This is impractical if not outright impossible given the structure of our community."

    This is an ambiguity fallacy. Why should coaches have to register? What would that accomplish exactly? Why shouldn't coaches be allowed to play in the tournament? The OP has said this needs to happen, but doesn't say why it needs to at all.

    5) "Even if coaching could’ve been done in a fair and balanced way, it would still be a move away from the skillset that we as a community value and want to test -- execution, adaptability, and mental fortitude. Devaluing adaptability is a step backwards."

    How does coaching devalue adaptability? The coach may point something out, but in the end the player either makes the adjustment or doesn't in actual gameplay. There are still dozens of tiny adjustments being made in-match that coaching can't account for. Adaptability is exactly the same whether there's coaching or not.

    Coaching should allowed because there really are no compelling arguments against it. These discussions almost always boil down to the fact that people opposed to it don't like it, but that's not a sufficient reason to ban the practice. As for the people who say that it takes too long and drags out the tournament, is it really that much worse than the hand warmers and button checks which players do as well?
     
    Doctor X, Vorde, BSL and 18 others like this.
  10. SonuvaBeach

    SonuvaBeach
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Howell, MI
    1. "Obvious to who? Why is it obvious? There are plenty of people who think coaching is perfectly fine. It's not obvious at all that players should have to rely only on themselves."
    - This IS obvious to most players. The majority of the community is of the belief we are fighting in a 1v1 game in singles, not a 1+coach vs 1+coach. This point will be debated unless a poll is done defining what coaching entails and is done at a national to prove one way or the other.

    2. "The mental decisions which truly influence the outcome of the match are made in real time during the gameplay, and those decisions are still made solely by the player"
    - "Solely by the player" yet you're saying that they have a coach aiding them. Last I checked, if someone is helping point out habits and tendencies for another player, then that player is no longer noticing them on their own. In close sets one habit can be enough to swing the set and if noticing that habit came from the aid of a coach instead in between matches then that means I am no longer playing against solely my opponent. I am playing against the opponent and his coach. When in singles I expect to be playing a 1v1.

    3. "This is begging the question. The OP is not actually asking what makes a good player, but is instead presenting a circular argument about skill to prove the assumption he's beginning with: coaching is bad."
    It's definitely convenient for your argument to ignore the questions that invalidate it.

    4. "See #2 above. Also applicable to the steroid comparison."
    You seem to argue from both sides of the fence. Either you believe coaches have weight and provide insight/value to the player’s in their sets, or you don’t. If you don’t believe they have value, then you should have no issue in them not being allowed during sets. If you believe they do have weight, then it is no longer a 1v1 match and should not be allowed. Sets should be a test of a player’s skill and preparation beforehand, not a test of their coach’s ability to pick up habits and point them out for the player. Coaches can swing sets and it would be unfair for one person to have a great coach while the other is just mediocre.

    5. If coaches are not registered it will hold up tournaments. CEO is a great example of this and I am not a fan of anything else holding tournaments up in a time when running them on time is becoming more and more rare.

    6. “How does coaching devalue adaptability? The coach may point something out, but in the end the player either makes the adjustment or doesn't in actual gameplay. There are still dozens of tiny adjustments being made in-match that coaching can't account for. Adaptability is exactly the same whether there's coaching or not.

    Coaching should allowed because there really are no compelling arguments against it. These discussions almost always boil down to the fact that people opposed to it don't like it, but that's not a sufficient reason to ban the practice. As for the people who say that it takes too long and drags out the tournament, is it really that much worse than the hand warmers and button checks which players do as well?”

    How doesn’t coaching devalue adaptability? The coach will point something out, and the player then makes the adjustments in their gameplay. There are dozens of habits that the coach could notice and any single one could swing an entire set. Adaptability is certainly influenced and devalued when there is a coach being implemented.

    Coaching shouldn’t be allowed because there really is no compelling arguments for it. These discussions almost always boil down to the fact that people opposed to it don't like it, but that's not a sufficient reason to allow the practice. As for the people who say that it doesn’t take too long and doesn’t drag out the tournament, did you even watch CEO? The tournament was already behind and coaching completely killed the hype in many of the sets. As if button checking isn’t enough, we now have to wait 2-5 minutes between each game for coaching? Please.
     
  11. Marc

    Marc
    Expand Collapse
    Revival of M

    • Administrator
    • Tournament Organizer
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2002
    Messages:
    16,333
    Location:
    The Netherlands

    The game pits one person with a controller against another person with a controller. While I agree that it clearly is not obvious to everyone that you have to do it yourself, the contrary holds also true: what makes it natural for someone to be allowed to talk you through it? It introduces an external factor that could even be a distraction.

    I have at several times witnessed and experienced someone being talked through the set and pulling it out that way. I have taken advantage of this for Brawl, a game I lacked experience and matchup knowledge in for the level I wanted to compete at, but have good enough basic execution for. There have been sets that I won where I was glad to have a high level player on my side that aided in my decision-making. Of course, Brawl is overall slower than Melee, but I am confident that good coaching makes a difference. This might be more pronounced at lower levels of play, but coaching definitely takes away from individual adaptability and decision-making.

    Amsah is also making the point that coaching isn't regulated at all, except on some of the big stages. As I posted on Facebook, it makes it even harder for upcoming players to beat high level players that typically have access to other high level players for coaching. It's all about who you know and who likes you enough to help you out.

    Those suck balls too.
     
    #11 Marc, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  12. Engo

    Engo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2007
    Messages:
    865
    Location:
    the dog,the dog he's at it again!
    Ban coaching or regulate it. Completely agreed!
     
    #12 Engo, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    EazyDI likes this.
  13. Labo

    Labo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1
    I'm very new to the scene so my opinion doesn't mean to much. With that being said I think coaching is a great aspect of tournament play. In high school tennis my coach helped me out at changeovers and it was cool to see the same thing happening in esports. The double edged blade is that coaching at my level can help out tremendously, but I would always opt for smashers getting better faster than staying stagnate. Last tournament someone pointed out that my tech against math's d throw was super predictable. Lastly, I think it helps to strengthen the (already thriving) community aspect of the scene to have your homie pointing stuff out for you in between games.

    Also, there should be a maximum change over time of like 60 or 90 seconds that any player can take in between games, to clear up time issues.
     
    #13 Labo, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  14. Jam Stunna

    Jam Stunna
    Expand Collapse
    Writer of Fortune

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    6,452
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    3DS FC:
    0447-6552-1484

    @Marc- I definitely agree that coaching makes a difference, but I'm saying that being coached is not the same thing as turning over mental control of the game to the coach. And your right that it's not natural for someone to talk you through a set, but that in and of itself isn't enough of a reason to stop coaching. To ask for a practice to be banned, the person asking for the ban carries the burden of proof, and to me, the arguments presented here don't meet that burden.

    @SonuvaBeach- The reason why I'm ignoring that question is because the definition of a term will obviously support the position of the person defining it. If I made a post about what makes a player good to prove that coaching should be legal, I would expect you to dismiss it out of hand as well; my definition would be cherry-picked and biased to prove my point, much as the OP's is.

    I believe that coaches have big impacts on sets. I agree that they can swing the course of a match. I don't agree that their influence is a problem though. Both players would have access to a coach; the quality of the coach will vary just as the quality of players does.

    As for the time issue, coaching is not necessarily the problem, or at least it only exacerbates the real problem: Smash sets are long. Removing coaching, handwarmers, etc. doesn't change the fact that sets in this game take 10-20 minutes on average, and no other game even comes close to that. We can shave a few minutes off I guess, but Smash tournaments are always going to run behind schedule, like most other tournaments as well.
     
  15. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,609
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi



    Everything about being a new player is harder. Not only do you have less access to strong coaches, but less access to strong trainer partners, less match up experience, less... everything. If you want a good coach work hard and go get one, just like you practice to get tech skill or travel to practice with good people.
    I've never liked arguments that equate to, "this guy has an advantage and I don't" when the disadvantage is defined by lack of commitment and work and it can be overcome with more commitment and harder work.

    I've been coached a handful of times in my career, but I think I prefer it play without it. Personally I have a difficult time making good plays and I feel like it creates hesitation and second guessing within myself.
    I've lost games to people being coached but I've never felt cheated because of it. It's definitely something I had access to as well and chose not to make use of. It's not the coach pushing their buttons or interfering with my play. He is giving guidence sure, foresight, guess based on my choices, but all the information the coach gain form the match the player has access to as well. There is no fog of war on my side of the screen my opponent can't see though.

    My biggest argument against coaching bans are how impossible it would be to regulate. If a spectator yells from the crowd "He always rolls on stage!" should he be escorted out of the venue? Should I get a free stock? how do you regulate and then enforce a ban like this?
     
  16. Blunted_object10

    Blunted_object10
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    3,301
    Location:
    Burnaby BC Canada
    So from my understanding.. You want coaching to be banned during matches, but in between matches is ok?

    At the tournaments I go to here... We have a rule stating..

    • No coaching during a match. Consulting someone between matches is allowed as long as it doesn’t hold up the next match.
     
    #16 Blunted_object10, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Hitzel likes this.
  17. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,855
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    I'm pretty sure that's the point of competition. You rely on your individual capabilities (or that of your team) to progress as far as possible.



    The bolded part undermines your own argument. If a coach is helping you make the right decisions, he's at least partially thinking for you. The analogy stands.

    You apparently don't understand what begging the question is, or what a circular argument is for that matter.
    I can't even reply to this since you're not actually saying anything.

    #2 doesn't address what I said here.

    No, it's not.

    Why should team partners have to register? What would that accomplish exactly? Is there any particular reason we don't allow 4 players to switch partners mid tournament?

    1) So players don't end up playing matches without their coach because they're away playing their own matches. That would create an unfair environment.

    Example:

    Player A + coach beats Player B due to coach's advice
    Player A then progresses and plays Player C without his coach.


    This would mean that Player B played a different (better) opponent than Player C, even though Player C was supposed to play the winner. B got screwed and C has an easier opponent. B might get seeding he only deserves when his coach is actually present etc. It creates a whole bunch of problems.

    2) Players can end up facing their coach. Which would mean their Coach has a coach, but they don't, or they'll have a different one, which as I already pointed out, is fundamentally unfair.

    How does it not? Adaptations can be divided into three parts:

    - Recognizing what's going wrong
    - Figuring out how to fix the problem
    - Executing your new gameplan

    A coach is responsible for 2 out of 3 those three factors. Which means that players with a good coach only have to focus on perfectly executing whatever the gameplan is, rather than think for himself.
     
  18. infzy

    infzy
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Scientist

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    5,460
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    With coaching, you are at a disadvantage if you don't have a friend willing to help you out during your set. That's dumb IMO, so I would like coaching to be disallowed/banned.

    That being said, I very much appreciate the way @Jam Stunna has been contributing to the discussion here, like carefully picking apart logical fallacies etc. in the counterarguments.
     
  19. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    We're pretending coaches are completely right in all of these scenarios. Having a coach doesn't automatically give you an advantage. They could offer up advice that turns out bad, putting you in a worse position. Or, you may focus too much on the advice, let it affect things that were working for you, and fall apart. Or you might just ignore the advice. Being coached =/= instant advantage. You may consider this implied, but I think it needs to be stated for this argument to continue.

    I think, rather than ban coaching outright, we should regulate it. Set a rule that between each match in a set, you have, say, two minutes to get counterpicking and coaching stuff out of the way. I don't know how much time we should allow, this is just an example. I look at it the same as a time-out in something like basketball, where the coach changes plays and tells the team what they're doing right/wrong, or what to look out for. No one considers this foul play, and I think it's fair in Smash in the same sense.
     
    Saito, Thor, randomnerdchris and 2 others like this.
  20. Broasty

    Broasty
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2014
    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Orlando, Florida
    One of the nice things about Fighting game tournaments is that unless it's a less often held invitational, anyone can enter...and anyone could theoretically win. This opens up the excitement that anyone can become someone within the fighting game community...no connections BS before hand. As such, you are removing that possibility with coaching since we can all agree that coaches give a player an advantage over one who doesn't have a coach. Because of this, if you're a new player who has no access to experienced coaches, you're already at a disadvantage that makes the game less approachable.

    Come on guys...do we really want to go the route of making this game all about who you know rather than the game itself?

    Also, if you DON'T think coaching gives a player an advantage over one who doesn't have one...why even have coaches? If they provide no benefit then all they are doing is holding up the tournament they're partaking in.
     
    #20 Broasty, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    otter, Signia, Shadic and 2 others like this.
  21. Hisry

    Hisry
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 30, 2014
    Messages:
    167
    You know, that makes sense. People do still have the right to have a coach, and they can certainly have one on their own time, but at tournaments the coaches need to let the players play and stay out of it.
     
    Broasty likes this.
  22. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    I just think it's ridiculous that we have this idea that something like a friend coming up between matches in a set and going "Hey, you recover high a lot and he punishes you for it," or something should be banned/grounds for disqualification. But that's just my opinion, so I'll move on to something more objective.

    What about unsolicited coaching? If I wanted Mango to lose in finals or something, could I jump up to him and start going "YOU MISSED A BUNCH OF FOLLOW-UPS FROM YOUR THROWS AND YOU SHIELD TOO EARLY!" within earshot of a judge or something to just get him DQ'd outright? If it's his word against mine, what's stopping players getting coached anyway and saying "I never asked for that, so you can't ban me?"

    I think we're making mountains out of molehills here, and I think it opens a door to abuse of the rules. I think in the interest of speeding up events it SHOULD be regulated to a degree for time, but putting a ban on it just sounds silly.

    Or, maybe my real issue is this is too subjective. Can we at least define coaching clearly before we all grab our pitchforks and rally against it?
     
    #22 Master WGS, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    FirestormNeos, Thor, otter and 3 others like this.
  23. infzy

    infzy
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Scientist

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    5,460
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Nonono you don't ban the player because someone is coaching. First you warn the coach, then you escort the coach off the premesis.

    Edit: In case it's not obvious, what we're really doing is stopping coaching from being an intentional, established part of tournament play. An off comment from the crowd here or there isn't going to instaban a player, but dedicated coaches sitting next to each player during every match is something we don't want to degenerate towards.
     
    #23 infzy, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  24. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    "Cool [insert pro player]. If you win, give me a couple hundred bucks and I'll get kicked out of this venue real quick. I'll keep my eyes open for anything he's abusing you with."
     
    Thor and Hitzel like this.
  25. infiniteV115

    infiniteV115
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2010
    Messages:
    6,444
    Location:
    In the rain.
    I think if anything, a rule should be implemented stating something along the lines of "If, before the set begins, either player requests that coaching be banned for the set, the request cannot be denied by the other player, and neither player can be coached for the duration of the set". This way both players can be coached if it's not a problem to them.

    This gets rid of the coach accessibility issue; one player having the advantage over his opponent because of things like
    - Opponent's coach(es) couldn't make it to the tournament for whatever reason (this would include something like somebody travelling from afar alone to this tournament. What if aMSa and Vectorman weren't buddies at Apex 2014? What if there's a language barrier?)
    - Opponent has fewer friends that can serve as coaches (so far I haven't seen any tournies outside of Apex 2013 where each player could only have one coach in a given set)
    - Opponent's coach(es) couldn't be beside their coachee (dunno if that's a word) during their set for whatever reason, even though the coach was AT the tournament
    - Any other things that apply that I can't think of right now

    Point is, I don't think factors like these should affect (even slightly) the outcome of a match. Like sure, if somebody has a totally ****ty personality and nobody likes him/her because of it (and thus he/she doesn't have a coach), I'd want him/her to lose too. But I don't think he should be forced to a disadvantage during the set because of his behaviour outside of the game.
     
    #25 infiniteV115, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    Thor, Dakpo, randomnerdchris and 11 others like this.
  26. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    I like @infiniteV115's idea better than anything I've heard so far.

    That said, I can't wait for players to have their phones confiscated to keep friends from texting advice during uncoached sets.
     
    #26 Master WGS, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  27. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,609
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi

    LOL.

    Phones confiscated so they can't ghost the stream while they play.
     
    Djent, melon_bread, Jaedrik and 5 others like this.
  28. infzy

    infzy
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Scientist

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    5,460
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I guess I don't really care if it's one tidbit of advice getting in between matches by some douchebag who's risking getting kicked out of the venue. We probably can't stop that sort of thing. But we can stop people from preparing for and intending to spend a minute between each match chatting with their coach.

    Major matches that have good supervision / livestream setups, it can be pretty obvious how to separate the players' chairs from the spectators so that coaching isn't a problem.
     
  29. SonuvaBeach

    SonuvaBeach
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Howell, MI
    I'm actually not opposed to the Gentleman's Coaching Clause - both players must agree to having a coach or not having one. If either disagree's, no coaching will be allowed during that set.

    This and a clear definition of coaching seems to solve the issue to me and is easily enforced. I don't consider yelling or texts to be in the same realm of coaching as a coach sitting by your side giving you advice.
     
    Thor, otter, Jaxas and 5 others like this.
  30. Dad's Home

    Dad's Home
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Home.
    Why shouldn't there be coaches? If smash is considered an esport, it should be treated like a sport right? It gives a great opportunity for the community. Maybe someone doesn't have the physical dexterity, hand eye-coordination, etc. to really play the game at a high level, but can watch and analyze the game properly. Just because you have a deep understanding of the game doesn't mean you're good at it, and vice versa.
     
    randomnerdchris and GaretHax like this.
  31. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,855
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    That's just you and it's not the issue.

    Already addressed regulation. It's impractical to do in a way that's completely fair. If we could, I wouldn't be against it in principle, but we can't as far as I know.. Not with the way our community is currently structured.

    If you think we can, feel free to explain in detail how we'd go about it.

    This is one giant straw man.. So is the part about confiscating phones.

    I'm quite sure that's the first thing I did..

    I'm also against coaching between matches. Pretty much for the same reason I'm against it mid game, though it obviously has less of an impact.
     
    SUNG475 likes this.
  32. scottguitar28

    scottguitar28
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Location:
    Chicagoland area
    Coaching is something that is done primarily in practice when it comes to non-team sports. Study the information you need to win before going into the competition. If you're losing it's because you're unprepared and you ought to lose that match.

    Claiming you need a coach is, in a weird way, johnning without johns. Let's say everyone bans coaching and the only non-john reason for losing is "I lost because I suck and need to get better." In that case, claiming you lost because you didn't have a coach is a john. Essentially, by allowing coaching in tournaments, we are allowing nearly everyone to get away with johnning behind our backs without actually uttering a true john. It's existentially blasphemous.

    In all seriousness, though, and even as someone who is more new to smash than baby mango, I support the banning of coaching. I believe that any type of coaching should be done on one's own practice time or free time, NOT tournament time. My opinion may change once Smash and other esports start getting prime-time slots on ESPN channels.
     
    Walbytamer11, Jessup124 and Nihonjin like this.
  33. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    let's ban coaches from boxing while we're at it, clearly they're hurting the metagame. actually, let's just ban coaches from every single sport and competitive game, because having a second opinion is CHEATING and WRONG and I HATE IT

    if you can be blown up from a single person pointing out a flaw, then your gameplan has problems, kids
     
    #33 trash?, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  34. ElectricCitrus

    ElectricCitrus
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Utah Valley, UT
    NNID:
    ElectricCitrus
    Coaching during a set is a pretty iffy subject, but I don't see how a player getting advice from a coach after their set is over and they are waiting for their next one is that bad. In the first situation you have a real-time issue of distracting the second player who isn't being coached AND affecting the current match outcome in a dramatic way.

    In the second situation you merely have a second party giving you advice for what you could possibly improve on/watch out for in your next set. Whether you apply those is up to you.
     
    #34 ElectricCitrus, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
  35. Mike_Tha_Hero

    Mike_Tha_Hero
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Georgia
    NNID:
    mikexxieaf
    I agree. If you want to analyze the match then grab a recording and do it afterwords. It's pretty disingenuous to have someone who has a more complete view of the opponent give you advice in between sets.
     
  36. Dad's Home

    Dad's Home
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Home.
    Let's refer to the oldest sport, wrestling, and look at how coaching works there. Your coach literally sits mat side and talks you through the entire match. As a wrestling coach, saying a command or a move to my wrestler doesn't automatically make them do it, it's just me seeing something they might not necessarily see in the heat of the moment. An extra set of eyes that each player should be entitled to. Maybe I'm a good player who hasn't studied matchups, how stages effect different characters, etc. so a coach can really be of use to me.
     
    rpotts, randomnerdchris and GaretHax like this.
  37. ElectricCitrus

    ElectricCitrus
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Utah Valley, UT
    NNID:
    ElectricCitrus
    So while I previously stated I don't like coaching DURING sets, I would like to imagine a sort of gentlemen's coaching agreement where each player agrees to a coach during the set. If both parties do not agree then coaching will be relegated to getting advice in between your sets.

    I don't think we should outright ban coaching, especially in between sets because that's where it'd mostly happen anyways.
     
  38. Dad's Home

    Dad's Home
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Home.
    That's like saying one person isn't allowed to drink water unless both players agree to it. It's not like its an expensive piece of equipment that makes you physically play the game differently, it's a dude talking to you.
     
  39. Master WGS

    Master WGS
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,736
    Location:
    Canal Winchester, OH
    Then I guess I want you to be more specific. Having three to five minutes of pow-wow time with your coach between every match of this best-of-five set? I get that being detrimental (more for time reasons than thinking it'll have any real impact on the match, but still, I agree with the important part that it needs to stop). Me sitting next to my buddy in finals going "Hey, do x less/more," seems perfectly fine. Both could be called coaching. I just don't want people getting yelled at for acting like human beings to one another and talking/giving offhand advice.

    Also, if we're banning coaches, I want to ban headphones. Maybe some people can't afford headphones, so it isn't fair they get to block out noise/listen to music while some don't. /sarcasm /iknowthisisn'tanargument /jokes
     
  40. ManoxMano

    ManoxMano
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    285
    Location:
    Toronto, ON
    Only allowing one coach, and for them to must be beside their buddy for the whole duration of the set would greatly decrease the time taken for coaching in between sets. And of course, coaches (the official coach a player chose in this case) should NEVER talk during the match - encouragement and advice should be given at the select screen

    I personally am for coaching, but it 100% needs to be regulated as in the FGC. You still have to put in leg-work to implement advice, the advice of the coach could always be wrong, and adaption still exists in-game.
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?