1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Ban coaching

Discussion in 'Tournament Discussion' started by Nihonjin, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    but then that falls into a completely different problem: there's still people who play off of what's called "the sound game". some players intentionally have a button that does nothing for this very reason, so they can hit it from time to time and see if the opponent is using those button presses as a cue. this is something asian regions do a lot, that's just a notch in their metagame and can be easily used against them
     
  2. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,635
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi

    Smash Just got E-Sports!

    Every tourney I got to I'm going to take my phone out, place it right next to the TV, set it to twitch and ghost the match I'm playing. That way my opponent and I both get twice the information, so the set will be twice as good. Who needs coaches for a hype set!
     
    Phaazoid and Master WGS like this.
  3. Comprehend13

    Comprehend13
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2014
    Messages:
    34
    Counterpicking should be concurrent with coaching. The point of limiting coaching time is to expedite the matches. If coaching increases the amount of time needed to choose a counterpick stage, then it should be very short.
     
  4. Mithost

    Mithost
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Locked in a safe floating in the Atlantic Ocean.
    why does every smashboards thread turn into an argument
     
    Phan7om and RIP|Merrick like this.
  5. Phaazoid

    Phaazoid
    Expand Collapse
    Basket

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    7,502
    Location:
    Ridin' my mega Charizard
    3DS FC:
    4854-6444-0859
    NNID:
    Mr.Grike
    It's cool. I understand how easy it is to get emotionally pulled into an argument. Especially one that could potentially have a large effect on the future of the smash tournament scene. And I'd be lying if I said it never happened to me.

    I don't disagree behind the ideology of banning coaching. I was just trying to show that there is a lot more underlying complexity to the issue than is immediately apparent, and trying to ban something without proper understanding of that complexity will have negative impacts.
     
    #165 Phaazoid, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    Mithost likes this.
  6. Juushichi

    Juushichi
    Expand Collapse
    sugoi ~ sugoi ~

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    5,523
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    @Nihonjin-senpai, can you notice me please?

    I brought up and tagged you in a real scenario that actually happened. How do you propose that we ban this and many other situations brought up in this thread in order to ban coaching properly?

    I think it has been covered by the OP that you think it should be banned. I think if you believe that it should be done, that there should be a feasible, reasonable way to enforce the rule. Just like how we globally enforce wobbling, hand warmers and the stalling clause.

    Otherwise, I guess we can have the same result with this as wobbling, hand warmers and the stalling clause. : ) Which I think is about as effective and serious as this:

     
    #166 Juushichi, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  7. broho

    broho
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2


    1) In some professional sports such as tennis which is in fact very similar to 1v1 Smash in an analytical sense, coaching is not allowed under any circumstances while on court which includes washroom breaks. It is entirely up to whoever is playing to determine which changes/adjustments need to be made. It is much easier to see these habits and areas of improvement, etc. if you are not the one under pressure playing.

    2) I agree to some extent, but the point is that the competitiveness/mindset should come from yourself as opposed to using a coach as your "crutch". Your response contradicts when you discuss coaching not having as big of an impact. You need to choose a stance versus swinging based on convenience.

    3) I don't think you understand what a circular argument is... It makes sense that his arguments support his point of view (kind of the purpose of making arguments) and he gets extra credit for anticipating some responses and answering accordingly.

    4) I do not like saying this, because I prefer to break down the argument before rebutting it, but this is just plain wrong. As I pointed out, you are contradicting yourself for starters, but in games such as chess or Smash, letting someone else choose your gameplan during a match is essentially like having a partner. One of the things that makes "smart" players so successful is just that versus their tech skill. Players such as M2K are examples of this as they do not have the best tech skill (M2K has really good tech skill, but I would say that there are a number of other players who are better at it) and are not making these ridiculous combo videos, but have such a good grasp of the game that they just know how to win. You are essentially cutting out a large part of that part of the equation if you allow coaching.

    5) This should be obvious in that if a coach is playing, they cannot coach a player at the same time (cannot be at two places at once) - if one player has a coach while the other does not for this reason or that they are coaching another player, it is unfair. By locking pairs together, it ensures that the coach will always be available for that player and that all players who want a coach will have one.

    5) Adaptability is based on knowledge/understanding and as I mentioned in #4, many players are great because they have that ability to combine decent tech skill with the experience/knowledge to adapt - so yes, coaching devalues a player's ability to adapt.
     
    Nihonjin likes this.
  8. Mithost

    Mithost
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2011
    Messages:
    691
    Location:
    Locked in a safe floating in the Atlantic Ocean.
    Just curious, can we currently enforce many of the rules we already have in place? This is a genuine curiosity from a tournament goer to the TOs in this thread, not trying to argue. If someone pauses in a match and quickly unpauses to make someone SD, how do you guys enforce that (outside of turning off pause, of course) assuming a TO or another staff member wasn't present? How do you enforce the "no coaching during a game" rule that is already common place? What is different between enforcing these rules and the rule we are currently talking about here?
     
    Juushichi and Engo like this.
  9. trash?

    trash?
    Expand Collapse
    witty/pretty

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    3,475
    Location:
    vancouver bc
    NNID:
    ????
    a crapshoot, effectively. it's like I said with the stalling rule, beyond a handful of obvious situations (pound stalling under FD, luigi ladders in doubles) it's all very subjective, and very much up to the TO's discretion, which is why most rulesets will just have "the TO can DQ you at any time" to cover themselves for such a case

    the only time I know accidental pauses can be easily enforced is EVO and that's because last I remember it's not up to player input at all, the person who didn't pause has to take the win and that's that

    most of the arguments against these bits are all "we'll get to that when we get to that" and that's a very procrastinating mindset
     
    #169 trash?, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  10. <π

    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    • Back Roomer
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2004
    Messages:
    7,635
    Location:
    Woodstock, GA
    NNID:
    LessThanPi

    Even at Evo I saw multiple pauses on stream and no one was DQed. Because no one cared... Just like no one cares about this. there are over 160 people viewing this thread now but its been the same 10 people posting this whole time. Even if coaching is an issue I don't think it is a big enough one to warrant a ban and all the other consequences that would have to go alone with enforcing it.
     
    FirestormNeos, z00ted and RIP|Merrick like this.
  11. Cookiemonsta

    Cookiemonsta
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    517
    Location:
    St. Louis and Rolla, MO
    It still isn't always fair for both players to have a coach. If your opponents coach is Cactuar and your personal coach is ****ing "IplayforLolz27", thats not fair either. Who's to say who's better at coaching? You might get some terrible advice from anyone...js.
     
  12. EnIgma24

    EnIgma24
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    France, Paris
    In all case the player decide himself if he follows the advices or not as cookiemonsta said some could give bad advises since coaching is pretty much theory about what you see so removing it won't be a problem either at this point maybe but to change the rule all have to check if removing that issue won't make bigger ones i guess.
     
    #172 EnIgma24, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  13. Conda

    Conda
    Expand Collapse
    COBBS - Commentator (Toronto region)

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    2,180
    Location:
    Toronto

    Agreed! I also don't like it when the commentators are within earshot of the the players and can hear the live commentary, it can be a distractor. Commentators should always be conscious of this.

    When we commentators say things like "He should really watch his spacing if he's going to survive another stock" or "He's gotta DI out of that down throw" or "He's playing really defensively, but that's not gonna work against his opponent", you're indirectly coaching the players if they can hear you.

    Be conscious of this and don't commentate so close to the players.
     
    #173 Conda, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    Mithost likes this.
  14. Arturito_Burrito

    Arturito_Burrito
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,308
    Location:
    el paso, New mexico
    You know what I think would be awesome, Coaching in teams. Especially now with all the high level sponsored players, in 2v2 their sponsors should get a coach because that is so intense and coaching 2 people in the > 5 minutes it takes to decide a match is a god damn good skill to have.
     
    #174 Arturito_Burrito, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  15. LydianAlchemist

    LydianAlchemist
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Location:
    Antioch, CA
    Regarding armada. Just because he doesn't like coaching doesn't mean he's gonna put himself at a disadvantage especially if the opponent has a coach as well.

    For instance I don't like items on but if my friends insist on having them on I'll still use them. I'm not gonna toss a poke ball off stage on principle.

    EDIT: Unless I'm stylin'
     
    #175 LydianAlchemist, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  16. Shippage

    Shippage
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    94
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    3DS FC:
    3368-1687-8805
    Is coaching in doubles a thing? If it is, should it get banned too? I agree with banning coaching in singles, but I don't mind it in doubles, but I don't know if that's a thing or not. Doubles make smash a team sport (at least it's supposed to) so coaching adds to the team aspect of doubles.
     
    #176 Shippage, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  17. TSM ZeRo

    TSM ZeRo
    Expand Collapse
    CHOICE SCARF

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,295
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA

    The idea of coaches for a tournament, and for them to register for a tournament, sounds actually awesome to me. A new job opportunity in the Smash community. Why not? Sports have coaches during breaks/between games.
     
  18. | Big D |

    | Big D |
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    • Brawl Back Roomer
    Joined:
    May 7, 2008
    Messages:
    3,917
    Location:
    Hinamizawa, BC

    It depends on what you want to test.

    Ideally with coaching, the winner is determined by the better combination of coach/player.

    Ideally without coaching, the winner is determined by the better player.

    So whether you ban coaching or not depends if you want to find the best player or the best combination of coach/player.

    Obviously the skill of the player contributes the most to that combination, but you can't argue that coaching doesn't alter the outcome.
     
  19. Sarth

    Sarth
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2014
    Messages:
    23
    Location:
    Roxbury, New Jersey
    I think people need to stop being salty about losing. All I see this argument as is a giant excuse for people who couldn't get the job done and they need to find some reason as to why, rather than accepting the lost.

    I wrestled throughout middle-school/high school at the state caliber level, and when I lost I never blamed it on my coach or the other kid's coach. I sucked it up, accepted my loss, and used it as fuel to get better. I use the same mind-set for Smash.

    The fact that miniscule stuff like this is being debated is just limiting this community from being the professional esport everyone wants it to be. Be mature, own up to your losses regardless of coaching or no coaching, and get better.
     
  20. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    Comes down to what I said previously. From the moment they start stage striking until they shake hands there should be no direct communication with the players unless except among themselves. In other words, once the set starts, no phones. You're competing.

    It's the same when you take exams at school isn't it? You're allowed to study before the exams, up until the point that you actually start taking one. At that point, you can't ask anyone else for help.

    Nope, what you do during your private time is entirely up to you.

    No.

    See first response.
     
    #180 Nihonjin, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  21. jayeldeee

    jayeldeee
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    292
    I thought this was common sense to not coach or tell someone anything during a tournament. Apparently not.
     
  22. Nihonjin

    Nihonjin
    Expand Collapse
    Striving 4 Perfection

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2005
    Messages:
    2,867
    Location:
    Amsterdam, Holland

    There is no differnece, which is why it's such a horrible argument from their side.

    We already have hard to enforce rules in place because they're necessary. Even if we couldn't enforce a rule at all, officially making it against the rules discourages its use. Which is ultimately what we're aiming for.

    There will always be people who (try to) break the rules or abuse loop holes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.



    So you're saying we should not have an official ban on stalling? It should be perfectly tournament legal to get a percentage lead with Jiggs and Rising Pound under the stage for 8 minutes?

    I'd love for you to honestly answer that question.


    I don't mind it in doubles at all, so long as your team partner is the one coaching you and vice versa. It's a team effort after all as you've pointed out yourself.
     
    #182 Nihonjin, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  23. polypuff

    polypuff
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2014
    Messages:
    18
    As long as nobody is getting an unfair advantage during a match that the other player doesn't have, then everything's fine.
     
  24. Zylo

    Zylo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Location:
    Tuscaloosa, Alabama
    One of the main arguments presented throughout the thread had been that coaching is an unfair advantage.
     
    LydianAlchemist likes this.
  25. Flippy Flippersen

    Flippy Flippersen
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2014
    Messages:
    233
    I'm confused about what kind of coaching is actually what amsah wanted banned since people are argueing about so many different kinds of coaching. I understand it's not crowd support but is it coaching during the actual game, coaching in between rounds or both? In between matches seems easy enough to call out since it requires the second round to start later and during the actual games it should be pretty easy to spot someone leaning in a player or if he's not hear him.


    I'm personally not against coaching as long as it's quick. I've been coached once (started in januari) which was when I didn't have a main yet and quickly asked my friend what to play, I still lost. On low level I don't think it matters cause no low level player realistically has the chance/expectations to win. On high level I don't think a quick you should do x more is enough to make the difference. So for this a "don't stall in between games" should be plenty. As for ingame advice this is easy enough to call people out on. It's easy to ask them to stop it. I wouldn't really put some instant dq on it just a warning and if it keeps happening then put some negative penalty on it.

    I'm not against coaching in between games (as long as it's short) I am against coaching during games. Moreso for being a distraction than for his amazing insights.
     
  26. YoPoYo9100

    YoPoYo9100
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    133
    I agree with the OP for the most part, I am in no way against coaching as
    a whole, but I am against coaching during play and during sets.
     
  27. ElectricCitrus

    ElectricCitrus
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    496
    Location:
    Utah Valley, UT
    NNID:
    ElectricCitrus
    I feel that coaching in between matches or sets or whenever their is downtime is a great thing, especially if the coaches have to register for the tournament and are bound to their player the whole time. It adds another layer of what people can do to get involved in the scene, and if a player retires from playing they can still find relevance by coaching a new generation of smashers.
     
  28. Comeback Kid

    Comeback Kid
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Champion

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,433
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    It seems a good distinction was made mid-thread between people giving you unsolicited advice mid-match/set and the player asking for advice from a fellow player.

    One is unintentional help and the other is help your actively seeking to cover your weaknesses.

    But it seems that point got lost in a discussion about crowds yelling things, logical fallacies that weren't logical fallacies and all kinds of ways people may be able to hypothetically break the rules.
     
    #188 Comeback Kid, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
    Smapps, Engo and Mithost like this.
  29. Jessup124

    Jessup124
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Jesup, GA
    But the OP is NOT , repeat NOT against coaching as a whole! He is only against it DURING PLAY AND DURING SETS.
     
  30. Scamp

    Scamp
    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Messages:
    4,353
    Location:
    Berkeley
    I think that the effects of coaching have been greatly exaggerated. Not a single person in this thread has given a firsthand account of how coaching has helped them during a match, and only one person has provided an example of when it helped their opponent.

    How many people arguing against coaching in this thread have actually been coached.?
     
  31. Zylo

    Zylo
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Location:
    Tuscaloosa, Alabama
    During one of my first tournaments I went down 1-0 in a set against a luigi as marth. A guy I didn't know too too well talked to me for about 2 minutes about the matchup and my opponent's habits. He told me things I was doing wrong that I was getting punished for. He also told me what stages to pick. I would not have known or picked up on any of this by myself due to my inexperience, but I went on to bring it back and win, and I do not believe I would have without his coaching. So there's a first hand example.
     
    #191 Zylo, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  32. Espy Rose

    Espy Rose
    Expand Collapse
    No but Ѽs tho.

    • Wii U Backroomer
    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    30,595
    Location:
    Sweet Apple Acres, Texas
    NNID:
    EspyRose

    Coaching during a set? No thanks. That's the time where the decisions taken should, ideally, be up to the interactions between player and player, not coaches or audience (though the latter will happen from time to time; there's nothing we can really do to regulate something like that unless it can be proven to be intentionally damaging to the integrity of the match).

    Coaching after each game in a set is something I'm actually okay with, given that there are restrictions on how long they can coach the players. Sets take forever to transition between games because of how much time players use to get advice and decide their counterpicks based on that, plus character availability of their opponent. So long as there's a time limit to the combination of getting coached, and counterpicking level, then it's a good tactic that doesn't cross over any lines.

    My two cents, is all. :applejack:
     
    #192 Espy Rose, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  33. Scamp

    Scamp
    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Messages:
    4,353
    Location:
    Berkeley
    Thank you for your first-hand example, but I think this shows a reason not to ban coaching. Some guy you barely even know is willing to help out a new, inexperienced player? I don't think we should take away the ability to do that.

    I think for a rule to be added such as the one proposed in this thread it needs to be a significant problem. Certainly mid-set coaching might influence a match, but it looks to be a minor advantage at best (or perhaps a major one to an inexperienced player, but we should be providing help to these players). As a TO, I simply don't see the problem. Along with more first-hand accounts I would like to hear of some evidence that coaching in the middle of a set strongly influenced a significant match. Otherwise, along with not being worth the trouble to enforce I also think that this kind of rule would make the game less enjoyable to play.
     
  34. FlamingForce

    FlamingForce
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Nobody ever said there was a problem with that, just that there's a problem with this happening in the middle of a set. There's plenty of time to receive critique and helpful tips from guys you barely know after you lost your set due to your own inexperience and shortcomings, as you should.
     
  35. YoPoYo9100

    YoPoYo9100
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    133
    Thats what I thought I was agreeing with, let me make myself clear. I believe that coaching OUTSIDE of play and sets is great thing. What I don't think is fair is if someone coaches a player DURING play or DURING sets. Clear things up?
     
  36. Scamp

    Scamp
    Expand Collapse
    BRoomer

    Joined:
    May 30, 2002
    Messages:
    4,353
    Location:
    Berkeley
    Again, that's not really a problem. Or it's a very minor problem that isn't worth making a constrictive rule over.
     
  37. FlamingForce

    FlamingForce
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Well I'd say that's a hasty conclusion to jump to, someone jumping in and making the difference between someone winning or losing a set is nothing minor. Especially since the story in question doesn't talk of anything similar happening for the other player.
    An unfair advantage is far from minor and most definitely something to make a constrictive rule over.
     
  38. Jessup124

    Jessup124
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Jesup, GA
    Ok but Earlier you said you partially agreed with the OP, I'm curious to know which parts you didn't agree with ?
     
    #198 Jessup124, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
  39. Dakpo

    Dakpo
    Expand Collapse
    Brawl Backroom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,912
    Location:
    Denton, Texas
    OMG YES, this is the perfect solution. A player must request coaching be banned BEFORE the set starts.
     
  40. YoPoYo9100

    YoPoYo9100
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Messages:
    133
    I agree with all of the OP, sorry if i misspoke. lol.
     

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?