Balance Patch

[nuro]

maybe this balance thing is a bad idea lol....

 

[Makai]

Some ideas I see on this thread are completely ridiculous things that I would find in Brawl Minus.

Melee Minus would be hella fun.

 

[ILM]

My only input is this: 1 frame jump cancellable rest.















For Kirby.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

After thinking about it and looking to brawl as an example if you do wish to balance melee try to model your project after balanced brawl in which you try to balance every one while keeping the physics and game play the same.

 

[The_Smash_Champ]

Dont do this, you will be wasting your time, and none one will play it. Melee is already so balanced, all you probably will do is break it.. If you are saying low tiers are unusable, look at Axe and his pikachu, and taj and his mewtwo. If you like whatever characters enough you can be good with them... except pichu...

 

[ss118]

Considering I haven't posted in here since December 18th, why would I?

 

[Acryte]

I agree with making subtle changes and not trying to necessarily redefine the character but then again changing the properties of their moves might be good, like if you made ness yyg easier and the dsmash have set knockback like yoshi dtilt then it could be useful for many things and becomes alot more viable a strategy, now people have to play and be careful of dsmash range or bait it because they know its a bread and butter move for ness. Changes like that are small but change his whole metagame and I'm sure that a few retools of some moves for chars will work overall

but yea Im against nerfing chars, buffing however is great....

But lets for example talk about zelda, the worst part about zelda is that she has so few good moves, whereas characters like marth, fox, shiek, falco etc, almost every move they have aside from maybe 1 move is a good move or a great move. Zelda has many useless moves. If shes not on 1.0 upsmash gets less effective because smash DIing the hits to get grounded, her dair is abysmal, her nair is great but it should have increased priority or just be super L cancelable like her fair bair like 4 frames to land and get out your dsmash that way she has some save shield pressure options. her upair is fine, dins needs retooling, its too slow. if you could speed up the traveling speed of it to 2x it would be quite an effective projectile though still not a gimp, it could be angled above people so that if they use their jump they will hit it like a ceiling and lose out on that height. which is pretty balanced. Dsmash is great, grab needs to be sped up, there is no excuse for a grab that bad.her jab is ok, maybe give it IASA though and I think that's about all zelda really needs to be competetive. maybe make nayrus love slightly more effective aka strengthen up the strong hitbox at the end a tiny bit and idk get some invinicibility frames at the beginning. I mean zelda in this example would still be a fair bair ***** but if you can fix DI issues off upsmash fsmash and make some of the other ones a little more viable options then she can actually compete. ****, then you might have some actual Zelda/Shiek players since both chars are legit options

but yea small boosts to fix whats broken and in some cases small boosts that change the chars metagame and how people play against them without quite redefining the char

 

[Tee ay eye]

NERF PIKACHU

Spoiler

look at my location before raging

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

NERF PIKACHU

Spoiler

look at my location before raging

Pikachu does not need to be nerfed, Axe does.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah.

Can we make a balance patch for Axe?

 

[Nicknyte]

Increase Luigi's Misfire rate to 87.5 percent.

Make Pichu Heavy as Falcon and Electric attacks give him health.

 

[Metà]

Increase Luigi's Misfire rate to 87.5 percent.

Make Pichu Heavy as Falcon and Electric attacks give him health.

I support this notion, in addition to giving Pichu a third taunt.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Most low tiers need 1, maybe 2 things tops to be viable.

 

[Strong Badam]

Hex-editing hitbox properties would be such a pain, and since it takes even more effort than Brawl mods do to be able to play hacked Melee, I don't see the point.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

For G&W all he need is a code to make his hammer come out as nine all the time. With that he would be the new jiggly puff.

Edit:

Most low tiers need 1, maybe 2 things tops to be viable.

Then post them, I am curious to know what you think.

 

[Nicknyte]

I support this notion, in addition to giving Pichu a third taunt.

Pichu has 4 taunts already.

1. Left taunt
2. Right taunt
3. Crouch taunt
4. Slow walk "PIMP WALK" Taunt

 

[Supreme Dirt]

The Pimp Walk should have the same power as Rest.

 

[Little England]

Most low tiers need 1, maybe 2 things tops to be viable.

Much agreed. I'd be interested to see a balance patch for melee, but I feel like it wouldn't be done right.

 

[ZIO]

Instead of balancing the game . . .

Why not, unbalance it? For the lols?

I was talking to my friends, and just the silly ideas we were thinking of, like, no matter where falcon is at, if he knees, it hits his opponent (Or everyone on screen if teams), or Fox and Falco's shine encompasses the whole stage right to the boderline. Just the thought was making us laugh.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

^^^^
All of Marths smash attacks should be auto-tippered and his sword should be double its size

 

[The Good Doctor]

Instead of balancing the game . . .

Why not, unbalance it? For the lols?

I was talking to my friends, and just the silly ideas we were thinking of, like, no matter where falcon is at, if he knees, it hits his opponent (Or everyone on screen if teams), or Fox and Falco's shine encompasses the whole stage right to the boderline. Just the thought was making us laugh.

Bump

Anyway, this would make it like Brawl +

 

[hotdogturtle]

Only if Jigglypuff's Rest gets the same treatment.

 

[Brookman]

What's going on with this 'ish??

 

[Sinji]

foxe's shine gets a bigger hitbox.

 

[ss118]

Marth should have a grab that comes out on frame 1. =P

More seriously, I think this would be better if it went a more "lolzy" way where we take lower tier characters and attempt to break the **** outta them. idk, I gave up on this a while ago but considering it got bumped randomly I thought I'd post. =P

 

[Brookman]

I think we could make some really simple adjustments that would help to level the playing field for the lower end characters.

 

[Redact]

Is anyone even attempting to do any work towards this in the first place?

Theory craft is all fine and dandy, but progress is nicer

 

[hectohertz]

yeah i also think it be more fun to make melee+ where characters a lot better / even more broken. just off the top of my head, i think it be cool to:

all characters can wall jump

give fox falco's dair, foward-b, and laser
give falco fox's up-b, upsmash and u-air
give doc/mario the luigi/marth esque up-b that can kill
give luigi some horizontal recovery on his up-b
replace luigi's fireballs with mario's or docs

doc/mario's down-b auto goes full height (or higher!)
and maybe make their dair a spike?

make game+watches shield cover his body
g+w side-b is a 9 everytime
yoshi should be able to jump oos.
kirby's dair into a real spike
replace kirby's fair with jigglypuff's fair
change kirby's air speed to jiggypuff's
pichu's attacks don't hurt him anymore
replace yoshi's up-b with someone elses (or raise the height he goes up)
raise the height jiggs' up-b takes her
young links up-b can kill
link/ylink's dair is a spike everytime
make roy's spike a real spike
luigi's side-b is a misfire everytime
samus/m2/dk b-charge stay charged
samus always has extended grapple
peach pulls a stich (or bomb) everytime
bowser fire-cancels everytime
bowser's fortress should have higher knockback/hitstun
bowser's wavedash should be like luigis (lowww tractionnnnnnnn)
zelda should have sheik's airspeed
sheik's up-b should have no landing lag
sheik's dair should spike
link/ylink's bombs should be full strength bombs
ness's up-b should probably just get replaced with something else
ness's side-smashes should act like homerunbat
ness's down-b should absorb any attack
pk fire should travel further
marth/roy should auto-tipper everything
replace ganon's fair with the knee
make falcon's down-b a spike
make ganon/falcon's side-b able to grab ledges
ness's yo-yo should have some serious knockback (or maybe always does the lost hitbox thing)
g+w's dair is always a spike
m2's forward and down-b's should have bigger hitboxes (and maybe more hitstun/sleep-time)
no more baby knees
puff's dair is a spike
climber's can get full-up b height from single climber
yoshi's nair gets increased knockback or something he needs a kill move
yoshi's dair is a spike



but thats just off the top of my head

 

[ss118]

Is anyone even attempting to do any work towards this in the first place?

Theory craft is all fine and dandy, but progress is nicer

I was learning how to actually edit moves and stuff, but I dropped it a while back when I wasn't making that much progress. at this point I think there's only oneperson who can actually edit moves in melee....

 

[nube]

none of this would be very hard to do..you just have to take a look at Magus' detailed posts on hitboxes/attributes/etc. in the mother thread, do a bit of tweaking and voila.

infact before i lost all my stuff, i had a "koopa kid" character that was Bowser, scaled to 1/2 the size, with c.f's dash-dance, luigi's wavedash, and like 40 jumps. but it was too OP, not really fun if you overdo it. Mytummyhertz's list is mostly doable, but like i said, if it's too OP, its not as fun. But something like balanced melee or melee+, without going overboard with souping up characters, is a great idea and definitely doable.

Agree with http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12778076&postcount=98

edit: OP meaning overpowered, not original post, obv.

 

[standardtoaster]

Cf's dash dance? Do you mean you gave him his dash attributes or animation?

 

[crush]

marths sword should be the length of fd, and his grab should come out on frame 1 and also be the length of fd
and falcon and the spacies should both run, fall, and jump five times as fast as fox does normally

 

[hotdogturtle]

I like how the thread about the balance patch turned into a discussion about the unbalance patch.

 

[ILM]

I like how the thread about the balance patch turned into a discussion about the unbalance patch.

Being realistic, lengthening Marth's sword to the size of FD is only a minor adjustment.

 

[NoAh MenQui]

Spoiler

frame speed changes and damage changes should be all we need to change to balance this game.

Making this kill faster, this have a different angle would just change the metagame over all from Normal Top/High tiers vs the Patched low tiers with redicolous changes

Examples being making this move get a better start up and a bit lasting hitbox should be enough (also the damage changes)

Hitbox sizes modifiers... that might be harsh if not done right, prolly leave alone

Melee is fine, I would love complete balance but if you do, no Melee veterans would run this build

They might try it if the changes aren't too clustered and masive.

EDIT:

I heard this in mibbit and was kinda interesting so I kinda mixed it up with an idea.

Top/High/Middle Tier characters unchanged

Low/Bottom tier characters Have a better buffer window on their moves making their executions less tighter to deal with the problematic characters

This doesn't change the game at all, just make it execution more friendly on bad characters, framespeed, damage, hitboxes, etc unchanged, makes the game stay the same.

Givimg my other 2 cents

 

[The Good Doctor]

That is the very definition of changing the game....

 

[NoAh MenQui]

That is the very definition of changing the game....

only giving buffer is changing the game?

if you play the game Frame by frame, that isn't changing the game, playing the game frame by frame lets you play your character perfectly

But that isn't changing the game, all that stuff is possible.

Brawl has 10 frames of buffer, but if it was 0 buffer like melee, it would just be brawl, buffer doesn't change a game, only how and when you do button inputs.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Yes, it affects muscle memory and changes the game to improve certain characters, making them better.
A game were low and bottom tier characters are better, no matter how slight is a change in the game

I know Brawl players that cant due certain things in Melee b/c they are used to the buffer system in Brawl

 

[VietGeek]

also buffer directly affects what player can or cannot do within the engine

if melee had 10 frame buffer (which it shouldn't) then l-cancels would more often than not cancel into shields instead of standing after aerial lag because that shield input would last for 1/6 of a second. there's a reason why brawl feels clunky, and some of it has to do with the decision nintendo made with the buffer system's input interpreter.

also i really question how execution being "laxed" would change a character like kirby in ntsc versions. i have a suspicion it probably won't. i agree in the end changing the game is changing the game.

as for balancing, i doubt people would even agree to balance changes even if they were "official" (oh hello pal version). at this point in the melee community, low tiers and borderline familiars are basically "just there". most of the people who played smash because of character favoritism either moved backed to smash 64, onto brawl, some hack of brawl, or plays a different game altogether.

if any melee balance patch project was ever attempted, i would say that a mentality like "one or two changes is all [low tiers] need" is very limiting depending on how you interpret this. i do understand the fear of slippery slope, in both buffing and nerfing (i've seen this play out both ways) characters, but it is very possible to be conservative with changes while being unrestricted in how many changes are done numerically.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Sad to see something like this gone to the waves of the ocean. I would have loved to see a Pichu with invincibility on more than D-smash.