Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[idea]

lol i can see why hbox and mango say so little, after all this time i'd much rather shorten things to the point where they're barely useful

puff vs. peach = outspace her, grab her, don't get faired (even on shield)

 

[ShroudedOne]

plus SHROUDEDONE is gonna come in here and help you out, im sure of it

Are you making fun of me?

Anyways, it's important to know what Peach wants to do vs you:

1) Turnips: She wants these. They give her leverage over you, a decent out of shield option, and force you to approach. So just hang around bairing in a range where you can't get downsmashed/naired/hit by her good close range moves, but where you can start to go on the offensive if she tries to pull a turnip. I'm in favor of being threateningly close to her, but not going full in until she tries to pull a turnip, then going for bairs/grabs. If she pulls a turnip and then shields, always grab her. Uptilting/bairing her shield is bad here because she can throw turnips OoS, and even if you catch an OoS jump with an uptilt, the turnip will sometimes dislodge itself from and hit you, making a followup impossible.

Generally, camping her will only be bad for you. Stay in her face.

2) Shield: She doesn't want to get rested. No one does, really, but Fox/Falcon/Falco/Doc/Marth all have decent punishes on it. Peach does not (I shouldn't tell you this secret, but it's in your best interest to always ban FD vs her). So she's going to be shielding (and crouching) a LOT vs you, so that you can't pop her up via utilts/bairs/uairs into rests or offstage chains. Once you get her in her shield by bairing a bunch, you can start mixing up between late and early aerials on her shield, tomahawk grabs (jump over her shield > grab from behind), tomahawk uptilts. She has some solutions to this, but don't worry about those for now.

For rest combos, just rely on utilt and maybe uairs below 20%. You can CC her dash attack into rest, or rest OoS below about 40-45.

3) Trades: Without rest, you die earlier than she does. You both are really floaty, but she's got weight on her, which helps her live longer. Space bairs and don't let her trade with you. Her fair is really good, if you see her trying to get above you in order to fair, just bair her jump, and bair before fair comes out. If she's bairing to catch your bairs, just time your bairs after hers.

Mahone covered everything else. You probably won't get edgeguarded unless you go low (again, ban FD [unless you really don't like Yoshi's/DL/PS vs her] ), so don't recover to the edge, and you're fine.

To add a bit to what Idea said: Don't shield vs Peach. Never a good idea for you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shield with Puff is mostly pointless vs Peach unless her pilot likes to dash attack on ambiguous 'openings' despite the opponent having an OHKO OOS on it because I don't know - maybe they have spasm attacks in their hands and just can't help themselves. At any rate, a certain lack of quality is needed and resting dash attack isn't even impossible if you jump over it and fall towards her back. As a bonus, the jump is usually the better defense setup from her other stuff too. I think it winds up working better in the long run; since this MU is a lot of attrition, you should probably respect long-term things more than you normally would.

Actually, I want to talk about how mediocre Puff's shield is a bit more because I hate it when people say it's good, especially vs Peach. Against everything else Peach does vs Puff, I don't see how shield helps more than movement or attack based defenses (with the aforementioned exception of dash attack). Puff's shield gets stabbed by d-smash a surprising amount if you don't shield DI it, and her slowish OOS options (aside from ultra 2-frame invincible roll, which is probably her best option vs Peach OOS a lot of the time) makes it difficult to counter attack during spaced pressure sequences. Her shield grab can be outspaced in a variety of practical and comical ways; her slow jump startup and relatively slow sex kicks limit the utility of aerial OOS. Furthermore, Peach's hits through a shield are mostly all solid hits too (nair, dair into something, d-smash, grab), so it's not like vs Fox when you're about 1/3rd to 1/4th away from the edge and you can kind of go, "Oh, even if I get shined after his aerial I'll just preemptively DI to edgecancel it and then recover - as long as I avoid bairs and crap it's only 4% but if I grab him here in this position then he'll probably just die outright to u-throw so the risk-reward is with me". Peach's hits through shield are basically the same hits she gets in normal combat, so you're not mitigating damage if you get stabbed in any way. Her hit confirms are also stupid easy so comboing is easy when it's possible whereas spacies need to kind of 'know' or 'guess' that their shine is gonna hit Puff to do anything with it so you can't stop damage that way either.

Anyway, now that I'm done ranting I think Mahone is correct with play aggro. If you don't let her get the veggies she needs to zone you when you start running low on jumps or are forced to go to the ground, she's basically limited to footsie and Puff has a clear advantage in that. If you do offense well, you also get to force her to the edge more - this enables better bair chain setups (bair chain is basically your main combo in this MU) and you also force her to recover more for extra percent during punishment. The hardest part is that you're sacrificing your spacing a bit so you have to have sick aim with your moves; if you don't then you'll basically lose to trades. Also, since she likes to shield, be liberal with grabs.

This next bit is separated 'cuz it's mostly theory but IMHO her answers to tomahawk grab kind of suck vs Puff because there's huge, enormous penalty on her for getting her defensive option read (even if you don't rest her, teensy charge f-smash or dair > u-smash at like 105%+ is often a kill, and it's a kill 40-50% earlier than an aerial) and Puff can cover some of these options with fairly low commitment (air mobility plus frame 1 air KO move to the rescue!). Peach also sucks at coming back from deficits created by rest so... yeah, she'll be shielding a lot 'cuz it's safe from most rest setups for a long time if she knows how to not be shield poked by u-tilt. But, again, this means more emphasis on block so you get to grab her more. This too becomes more useful when she's near the edge (severely nerfed roll away option and WD back is weakened too).

 

[Mahone]

Why would u think i was making fun of u? I was just hoping ud namesearch or see it and help me out

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh. Ok.

Well, you should know, I don't namesearch. Who'd ever be talking about me at any point in time?

 

[Bones0]

Is there a trick to JCing rests? I know it's not a true JC, but it seems weirder than multishining and other OoS stuff. Does it matter if you FH or not? The last time I tried it, it felt like I kept going with FH momentum even though I rested really low. If that's not my imagination, then I would guess SHing into the rest would be better, but I'm not sure how much difference there is in the first 3 airborne frames.

Also, how do you jump for uthrow rest? Again, I'm wondering how the FH affects it, and also if I should be DJing at all.

 

[idea]

imo in general the easiest way to hit rests is to jump straight up and rest immediately. that's what i do for jab reset rest, after running on top of them as they stand up. if you try to rest as you're falling instead of as you're rising, the momentum is kind of weird and it becomes possible to miss with it since rest has such a tiny hitbox.

i usually double jump for upthrow rest, above maybe 10%. for the same reason as ^. it lets you rest as soon as you jump instead of having to time it. not that the timing is hard or anything, but doing it this way removes even that small chance of missing it since the buttons do the timing for you.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Oh man KK and Puff/Peach.

I have this amazing memory of KK talking about the Puff/Peach matchup when I went to Impulse. He was walking me and Otto back to his house and explaining that matchup to me. Suddenly, these two girls maybe 10-20 yards behind us on the sidewalk started screaming like banshees and making really weird writhing motions like they'd been possessed. Me and Otto were kind of surprised but KK didn't miss a beat and kept talking about the matchup. It was kind of surreal. Maybe he's just used to that sort of thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Demonic possessions are just kind a normal occurrence here now. You get used to them.

 

[omgwtfToph]

After hearing about the "bathhouse," nothing really surprises me anymore.

 

[Strong Badam]

oh god not the bathhouse

 

[-LzR-]

Would you give me a critique if I posted a match or two?

 

[KrIsP!]

I'm sure someone would. I'm not sure Strongbad would.

 

[Strong Badam]

yo I'll do it

 

[Bones0]

Oh man KK and Puff/Peach.

I have this amazing memory of KK talking about the Puff/Peach matchup when I went to Impulse. He was walking me and Otto back to his house and explaining that matchup to me. Suddenly, these two girls maybe 10-20 yards behind us on the sidewalk started screaming like banshees and making really weird writhing motions like they'd been possessed. Me and Otto were kind of surprised but KK didn't miss a beat and kept talking about the matchup. It was kind of surreal. Maybe he's just used to that sort of thing.

I thought you were going to say this:
"...but KK didn't miss a beat and said 'Hear those girls screaming and writhing like they've been possessed? That's what the Puff/Peach matchup looks like.'"

 

[-LzR-]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashfinland/b/336629352

This whole thing is 40 minutes long and it's full of me vs Novi matches. It has matches against Marth, Falco and Fox. Fox being his actual character so I guess the Marth and Falco matches don't matter much. Don't be fooled by the title, there is no SDRemix on this video. Just pick a few matches on random and critique those. These are only friendlies, but they should give a pretty good show about my play. I need to know what to work on.

 

[KrIsP!]

I was watching Duck vs. Mango and this video showed up in related videos. Being a person with an opinion who loves to watch everyone try to scream over eachother, I clicked it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npvWGCPv2j0&feature=context-vrec

The video itself isn't important, just the fact that this was the day of Impulse finals and just a few blocks down Mango was facing HBox. Talk about straight vs homosexual

Edit: I also love when HBox used the Bane tag. Miss a tech? Your punishment must be more severe. *rest*

 

[Blubby]

i want to kno everything about samus vs puff

 

[Krynxe]

Protip: dair

 

[Bones0]

Protip: If you use a sing stall while she is hanging from the ledge by her grapple she falls asleep and freefalls to her death in that weird tumble state that Doc's cape sometimes causes.

 

[KrIsP!]

R-really? I've never thought to try that.

 

[Keblerelf]

I hate fox. I'm switching to marth just to learn marth vs. fox because puff vs fox is SO ****ING AWFUL

Got knocked out by Twebb and Zoso in bracket. I choked so hard in my last stock vs twebb.

Why can't jigglypuff have a sword.

 

[Massive]

Fox vs. pretty much everyone is a hard match.

Having been a marth main in a previous life, the marth/fox matchup feels about the same as the jiggs/fox matchup. He can still random usmash you and run-away laser. Uthrow to Uair is still great against marth. The biggest positive difference is you've got low % KO potential. The biggest negative is that your recovery is predictable, punishable, and oh so easy to shinespike.

 

[idea]

I hate fox. I'm switching to marth just to learn marth vs. fox because puff vs fox is SO ****ING AWFUL

Got knocked out by Twebb and Zoso in bracket. I choked so hard in my last stock vs twebb.

Why can't jigglypuff have a sword.

try falco too, that's what i did. went from a losing matchup to arguably a winning one :D

also, falco counters fox camping, marth does not. (except platform camping)

 

[omgwtfToph]

jigglypuff has a sword in brawl. and a mask and a cape too

 

[Keblerelf]

Fox vs. pretty much everyone is a hard match.

Having been a marth main in a previous life, the marth/fox matchup feels about the same as the jiggs/fox matchup. He can still random usmash you and run-away laser. Uthrow to Uair is still great against marth. The biggest positive difference is you've got low % KO potential. The biggest negative is that your recovery is predictable, punishable, and oh so easy to shinespike.

oh god those shines at the edge. It makes marth feel like a bottom tier character.

try falco too, that's what i did. went from a losing matchup to arguably a winning one :D

also, falco counters fox camping, marth does not. (except platform camping)

Falco? Maybe...

 

[Bones0]

Just get better.

 

[Tarv]

Hi Puffs. I'm not a Jigglypuff main in any sense of the word but I do enjoy playing her and she's probably my 4th or 5th best character. Furthermore, I do like to improve with every character whether it's marth, Jigglypuff, or even Yoshi. One thing I've noticed with Puff is that her aerial mobility seems to be easier to control with the control stick rather than a button. Any thoughts on this? Is this inherently a bad habit to get into with puff?

 

[KrIsP!]

What? You mean using up to jump?

Puff has great aerial mobility, as in being able to change directions in air and go further while falling than most chars...kinda like megaman in the NES games and using that is necessary for weaving and spacing. As for your question...jump with what your comfortable with if that's what your asking, most people don't use the stick to jump but HBox does. Of course it's a bad habit for a spacies main but your stick will be in constant motion with jiggs so if you can actually do it then who cares?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Puff indeed has better aerial mobility with the stick than with the X or Y buttons. With the control stick, you can move up, down, left and right; with the buttons, alas, you can only move vertically.

 

[idea]

Puff indeed has better aerial mobility with the stick than with the X or Y buttons. With the control stick, you can move up, down, left and right; with the buttons, alas, you can only move vertically.

Quite a tragic oversight

 

[Tarv]

Alright, sounds good. Thanks guys

 

[KrIsP!]

Wait, don't go. I'm still ****ing confused : (

 

[Tarv]

Wait, don't go. I'm still ****ing confused : (

Hm? What about? You and toph answered my question. I was more or less asking if there was any subtle problem with using the stick for aerial movement with puff since when I use marth, falco and fox the only time I use the stick to jump is to jump out of a shine to pillar at higher percents with falco. Judging by your confusion I'm guessing that there isn't any reason I shouldn't be using the stick, so... thank you. I don't know it just seems like it's easier to keep afloat with puff by using the stick and not having to keep tapping x/y in order to keep yourself mobile with puff while in the air.

Although, now that I think about it I switch between a button and the stick when using puff more than I thought. Like I said though I only play puff casually so I probably shouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[_wzrd]

lol i think toph was kinda messing with how you phrased your question.

since you literally can only move UP with the jump button. no matter what you use to jump, you are using the control stick for aerial mobility.

using the jump button is totally fine, if not *slightly* better since you can start moving with the control stick more instantly instead of jerking it to a direction after you jump.

that being said - it doesn't really matter, do whatevers comfortable, as long as you can execute what you want to do, you're doing fine.

 

[KrIsP!]

No I was just confused by what you meant with aerial movement and jumping. Aerial movement with puff makes me think weaving, jumping is part of that but...lol don't worry about it.

 

[Tarv]

Well... that was certainly a poor way to phrase my question in retrospect. I guess what I was trying to get at was is it better to use only the control stick to weave through the air or is it better to weave in the air with a button and then control horizontal movement with the stick And the general consensus seems to be, "Do whatever works for you"

Like I said before though, now that I'm actually paying attention to it I use both tactics when weaving.


But you know, don't mind me I'm just a silly marth main.

 

[ZoSo]

Just get better.

+1

Picking up a secondary specifically for one matchup is ultimately counterproductive, imo. I'm not saying never play or learn other characters, but you will grow more as a player if you just work harder on your problem matchups.

 

[Bones0]

I think up to jump makes a lot of scenarios easier to aerial in because you can just use the C-stick right as or after you jump. Doing stuff like fade away bairs as you DJ is pretty hard with X or Y (unless you claw).

 

[-LzR-]

So who would be a nice secondary for Puff? There are some MUs I would rather not want to deal with using Puff (spacies, possibly Falcon and so on) and I would like to know some options. My Falco is probably my 2nd best character, but as a Puff player, my other characters are ****.