Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[Mahone]

Thanks Mahone Can you crouch rest Falcon's grab like you can with Marth/Sheik?



Thanks, I do have a lot of trouble dealing with getting trapped in the air sometimes, especially vs Fox.

Bold: I've kinda noticed that, but I deff need to get better at noticing the little things and mindgames that Hbox is so good at.

Yes, you can rest falcon's grab

Ya, fox is really good at trapping you in the air, but hes also a beast on the ground, so id just try to adapt to what your opponent is doing and see which one works better

 

[Bones0]

How do I recover low vs. Marth? I just get fsmashed when I it looks like I'm way too low to get hit. -.-

Also, getting off the ledge is just as difficult. But I can't honestly say I've tried everything since I just LH fair out of habit every time. x_x

 

[Massive]

How do I recover low vs. Marth? I just get fsmashed when I it looks like I'm way too low to get hit. -.-

Sing ledgegrab for sweetspot or just don't recover low.

Also, getting off the ledge is just as difficult. But I can't honestly say I've tried everything since I just LH fair out of habit every time. x_x

Jump/Pound away from the ledge and recover high if he's trapping you there.
Alternatively you can turnaround bair from the ledge and outspace him.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I only recover low when I have to. I'll try mixing in bairs and pounding away, thanks.

 

[Mahone]

i usually just go risky and use some more jumps low to bait fsmash then jump singgrab...

if he doesnt fall for the bait ur forced to airdodge, but you can usually just di in and get ready to sdi the fmash up and in, so you gain height but no jumps... which can be tricky

im not the best to ask probably, since im super impatient at recovering with puff in all mus

 

[Bones0]

I'm fine with learning to play impatient Puff since it's just for fun. lol

 

[Mahone]

ya, then just go for airdodge/no airdodge mixup which is terribly in marths favor!

 

[Bones0]

Not risky enough. I am now determined to popularize pound-into-stage-ledge-techjump-jump-rest as a counter to fsmash.

 

[knightpraetor]

my fox got ***** soooo bad by mahone's jiggs today....

other than that one life where i quadruple shined him zero to death I think it was just me getting bounced around and edgeguarded the whole time....

You just get bthrown at the ledge and die...and some people would therefore say don't approach the ledge..but then what if jiggs knows you won't approach the ledge, then they know they can take bits of space and then just give the space back if they feel in danger cause they know you won't risk coming to the ledge...

but really..jigg's bthrow is too good but i can't complain, i do the same thing to fox with marth^_^

 

[ShroudedOne]

I always thought that Fox/Puff should be free for Fox, but Puffs make it so hard. And one read off of anything > death.

EDIT: The bravest Puff ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UL0QhruMUs5os&feature=player_detailpage&v=0QhruMUs5os#t=250s

 

[Bones0]

I was messing around in Classic mode with Puff and actually got a No Damage Clear! :D
Check it out.

 

[Zanx8]

Hi guys, I haven't been posting a lot here...and that TAS video was actually pretty entertaining, I watched it all the way through. Recovering against Marth is definitely annoying. I just spam rising pound then try to land safely LOL. As I like to go Sheik vs Marth now so I'll rarely go Puff unless I want to try getting better at the MU. I still love edge cancelled aerials to rest, the best feeling inside after landing one successfully. So is the Puff Skype group never coming back?

 

[Krynxe]

I was messing around in Classic mode with Puff and actually got a No Damage Clear! :D
Check it out.

Taking credit for other people's work is not coolbeans

 

[Mahone]

I was messing around in Classic mode with Puff and actually got a No Damage Clear! :D
Check it out.

that ending was ****

Hi guys, I haven't been posting a lot here...and that TAS video was actually pretty entertaining, I watched it all the way through. Recovering against Marth is definitely annoying. I just spam rising pound then try to land safely LOL. As I like to go Sheik vs Marth now so I'll rarely go Puff unless I want to try getting better at the MU. I still love edge cancelled aerials to rest, the best feeling inside after landing one successfully. So is the Puff Skype group never coming back?

going sheik vs marth is pretty smart, i can't really blame you for that one lol

uhh... all the puffs got busy or jobs or something i guess... u can skype me whenever you want

 

[Zanx8]

Yeah, I'd do it for Fox if I wasn't so bad at that MU with Sheik for some reason. Okay, that's alright, hopefully one day it'll be back. And I'll definitely message you whenever I see you on then!

 

[KrIsP!]

Hey mahone you still running your own minecraft server? don't know if you feel like playing but I've been freaking bored lately. If I set up my own server would any puffs or puff afficianados be down to play?

 

[Mahone]

naw, i don't have my own server... if u hosted, i guess i could play, but id have to remember my username/password

 

[ShroudedOne]

Mahone (or KP) teach me how to get it so that I can watch vids in 1/4 (or maybe 1/2) time. I need to take some notes, and Melee is too fast.

 

[Anand]

Mahone (or KP) teach me how to get it so that I can watch vids in 1/4 (or maybe 1/2) time. I need to take some notes, and Melee is too fast.

http://www.youtube.com/html5 (enable HTML5)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Thanks, Anand.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Quick question everyone: Do you guys think that aggressive-combo-heavy puff is still viable in today's metagame? Or is it all but extinct?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Mango's Puff is still at least the 2nd best puff in the world so I don't see why not.

 

[Mahone]

Mango's Puff is still at least the 2nd best puff in the world so I don't see why not.

mango is winning not mainly due to his playstyle but because of the skill gap in spacing/reading/etc.





it's really too hard to say whether an aggressive style will win cuz i don't even know what that means...

ofc u should be aggresive when you have ur opponent pressured/pinned, but not when they are throwing out easy-to-grab aggresive attacks of their own...

and of course combo heavy is going to be objectively good, unless you mean vs. taking the rest eariler instead, which again will depend greatly on the stock count, matchup, position on stage, etc.

my advice to all puffs would be to stop worrying about how you are playing and just adapt to how your opponent is playing. That type of playstyle will always be viable.

 

[ShroudedOne]

my advice to all puffs would be to stop worrying about how you are playing and just adapt to how your opponent is playing. That type of playstyle will always be viable.

This is top tier advice. Everyone should adhere to this.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

mango is winning not mainly due to his playstyle but because of the skill gap in spacing/reading/etc.





it's really too hard to say whether an aggressive style will win cuz i don't even know what that means...

ofc u should be aggresive when you have ur opponent pressured/pinned, but not when they are throwing out easy-to-grab aggresive attacks of their own...

and of course combo heavy is going to be objectively good, unless you mean vs. taking the rest eariler instead, which again will depend greatly on the stock count, matchup, position on stage, etc.

my advice to all puffs would be to stop worrying about how you are playing and just adapt to how your opponent is playing. That type of playstyle will always be viable.

I think what I mean by aggressive would be consistently being on top of your opponent and trying to limit their options and force bad decisions with different mixups instead of hanging back creating a wall and capitalizing on mistakes that way. (I'm still a beginner and haven't played in a tournament in a while so I'm not sure if players like Hbox and Mango already do this, but the contrast between their play-styles seems vastly different at a glance idk)

Edit: Also that is very good advice Mahone. Just a little hard to practice when playing alone.

 

[Mahone]

You don't have to tell me about playing alone... i definitely know how hard that can be for puff

mango and hbox definitely do play much differently i'll agree with that

I think what I mean by aggressive would be consistently being on top of your opponent and trying to limit their options and force bad decisions with different mixups instead of hanging back creating a wall and capitalizing on mistakes that way.

see, mango and hbox both do everything you said, but the ratios are different

mango likes to force mistakes more, hbox likes to limit options more, but to be successful player you always have to be doing both

mango's more likely to condition you by grabbing your shield and pressuring it a lot... then resting you when he thinks ull roll

hbox is more likely to time aerials and uptilt/upsmashes around ur shield so you cant do anything productive out of it


this is all just my opinion, if hbox or mango ever posted they could correct me, but thats how i see it... ya ofc at the end of the day mango is more aggressive but if you watch hbox matches more closely ull see that hes usually the one chasing his opponent around the level and comimtting pretty hard to some options, although he does have moments where he likes to play defensive, again though, aggressive and defensive are a little too abstract of terms for me to say if one is better or worse...

it kinda looks like i copped out and didn't answer ur question lol, but i don't really know what else to say

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

You don't have to tell me about playing alone... i definitely know how hard that can be for puff

mango and hbox definitely do play much differently i'll agree with that



see, mango and hbox both do everything you said, but the ratios are different

mango likes to force mistakes more, hbox likes to limit options more, but to be successful player you always have to be doing both

mango's more likely to condition you by grabbing your shield and pressuring it a lot... then resting you when he thinks ull roll

hbox is more likely to time aerials and uptilt/upsmashes around ur shield so you cant do anything productive out of it


this is all just my opinion, if hbox or mango ever posted they could correct me, but thats how i see it... ya ofc at the end of the day mango is more aggressive but if you watch hbox matches more closely ull see that hes usually the one chasing his opponent around the level and comimtting pretty hard to some options, although he does have moments where he likes to play defensive, again though, aggressive and defensive are a little too abstract of terms for me to say if one is better or worse...

it kinda looks like i copped out and didn't answer ur question lol, but i don't really know what else to say

No way Mahone, you da bess. You answered really honestly and explained it thoughtfully. I couldn't have asked for more haha. Thanks

 

[KirbyKaze]

Offense at this point is just aggressively controlling the stage. You establish your position and use it to threaten.

I think Puff can do it but it's harder than defense. Mostly because her ground game sucks and being in the air forfeits a lot of traditional defenses that allow you to hold your ground and exert pressure on them. Air mobility is generally useful to move around or away from someone, so it's inherently more defensive. It can be used aggressively... but watch how hard it is to hit HBox with a non-spacey and talk to me about how great offense is. That said, offense is probably underrated. It might even be better in the long run if you can figure out all the quirks of the style; Mango was best Puff for a long time. HBox's Puff is only better 'cuz Mango quit the character IMO but HBox is still very good. At any rate, I think they both can work. When HBox first broke out he was kind of an oddity IMHO and it's not like people switching to the gay style has created an influx of bracket-totting Puffs...

Combo heavy is harder though. Puff's punishment game is limited at the moment and nobody's really figuring anything out aside from u-tilt > more u-tilt > rest / f-smash (f-smash is the mindgame) and other DI manipulation BS like that. I think there's potential in edgecancels and linking repeated SH aerials Fox style vs FFers and semi-FFers to create tech chases that lead to uairs off the ground and such but that's largely speculation.

If we're counting opponent is airbone > bair > opponent can't beat bair in the air after being hit by it > more bair > see after "bair" > more bair then sure the sky's the limit. Combo heavy Puff for life.

 

[Bones0]

I think Puffs could gain a lot from using WD off platforms as an aggressive maneuver, and ledge cancelling in general is so ridiculous. The WD off seems REALLY fast, and it's compounded by the fact that people don't expect Jiggs to be attacking from the ground (obv you are airborne, but people, or at least me, are looking for that jump constantly). If you ever do something like bair-LC-bair or bair-LC-uair it covers mad space and people are always looking for Jiggs to whiff so you can cover yourself as you move to the ledge while simultaneously baiting their punish on your first aerial. Then you hit them with the second and completely catch them off guard.

I'm theory bros'ing really hard here, so just use this as inspiration. :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

And ledge cancelling makes it harder for people to track how you're moving through space, and constantly refreshes your jumps so that you are less limited when exerting pressure.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, wouldn't want to run out of all 11 thousand jumps.

jk Those were good points.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Puff's best offensive features are that she can't be shield grabbed or immediately hit by most characters when crouching in front of one and her fall zone is ridiculous. She has a lot of presence when the opponent is slightly below her or sideways to her (or a mix). She has problems when they try to play around her bair by jumping over it or going under it, but I maintain Darc's random uairs did a decent job of policing the former while simultaneously cheesing spacies that thought they were clever for using a standard strat (unless he phantomed the rest after hitting it LOL).

 

[Krynxe]

I miss Tekk

 

[omgwtfToph]

I miss Tect.

The man who would win 2nd place (to Mackadotious) in a Toph-lookalike contest.

 

[knightpraetor]

"She has problems when they try to play around her bair by jumping over it or going under it, but I maintain Darc's random uairs did a decent job of policing the former while simultaneously cheesing spacies that thought they were clever for using a standard strat (unless he phantomed the rest after hitting it LOL)."

i think this has some potential when fox tries to get over with bair (or the full hop nairs but i only used like 3 of those the last time we played). anyway we should play thursday or friday mahone. I have hw due thursday so i can't play till then probably

 

[Mahone]

im gonna be in nova, sorry man, i can play today if u want

 

[Landry]

Hey guys, I was wondering if you have any advice for the Peach matchup? I know it's not supposed to be that bad for Puff but I've been having a bit of trouble because I don't really know the matchup very well and am having a bit of trouble out-spacing some of Peach's aerials which has been leading to me getting shield grabbed a lot. I'm also having trouble killing Peach with anything other than fsmash or rest so she ends up living longer than she probably should. Any advice would be great.

 

[Mahone]

well if you're getting sheildgrabbed you aren't playing to your strengths

i tend to stay in the air pretty much the whole match since your aerial mobility is better than hers

when peach is off the stage recovering you should be able to keep hitting her away and get some kills that way, just don't force it, be patient, watch what she's doing and then BAM, hit her, just like my wife

oh also, upair kills nicely if you can catch her when shes above you, the spacing to hit with the tip of it is ideal and will take some getting used to...

also upsmash helps in killing her, dair-upsmash being the best way to set it up, but that might be a little too advanced for you, you can play around with upsmash a little though and see if u can get it to work for u

your bair is longer than any of her aerials so if you just try to hit with the tip of it, you shouldnt be able to get hit unless you get predictable

sorry this advice is vague, if you can provide more details as to what problems you're having im sure i could help more

plus SHROUDEDONE is gonna come in here and help you out, im sure of it

 

[Landry]

Thanks for the help Mahone!

I'll try to be a bit more specific about problems I'm having -

I've been trying to play this matchup pretty campy (should I be more aggressive?) but what ends up happening is that when I poorly space a bair (not getting in and out quick enough, basically) I end up get naired OOS or eat a dash attack.

I also have trouble keeping Peach off stage. When I get her off with some bairs she usually floats up really high. I've been trying to follow her up there and hit her since it doesn't seem like she can really do much to hit me but what has been happening is that she'll just wait me out and then try to come down when I run out of jumps. I'm probably not using uairs as well as I should since I haven't been able to keep her in the air as well as I would like to.

My main killing moves right now come from chaining some bairs together and sneaking a fsmash in there that catches her before she can react. Otherwise I just try to wall her off the stage with bair. I know I should be resting more but I haven't really been able to set up rest combos on Peach as well as I normally do. I'm afraid to go behind her and utilt because I don't want to eat a dsmash. Should I be trying to rest her dash attach OOS?

Also - how the heck do I deal with turnips? They're not that bad to get around but they definitely give her an advantage with the campy style I've been trying against her. I avoid most of them but when I get hit by one it usually gets quickly followed by a dash attach.



Thanks in advance for any advice you could offer me!!

 

[Mahone]

i think its better to play it aggressive because: 1. You can, since jiggs outmaneuvers her and 2. I don't like giving her room and time to pull turnips

it sounds like you are doing the bair too early, just again really make sure ur hitting with the very tip (practice in training mode) and to avoid getting dash attacked, the second you land from your bair do SOMETHING

this is one of the things that seperates mid-high level jiggs from mid level jiggs (i guess? the point is its really good)

always do something after your attacks, its normal to just land and shield but thats TERRIBLE... the second you land JUMP IMMEDIATELY and BAIR... or immediately just jump away, or immediately dash away

now that ive said that... you can go watch some vids on youtube and you'll notice that top level jiggs are always doing something right away when they land or just choosing not to land and continuing to stay in teh air while doing more aerials

well like i said, upairing her high up is pretty hard, what you want to do is recognize when she is too high up for you to get to her and don't waste ur jumps... try first just jumping to a side platform and then maybe the top platform instead of going straight at her, so that you will get a full 6 jumps from the top/side platform and be able to go higher

if she really is too high and just waiting you out, there is no rush in killing her, just wait for her to come down and then guess/react to where shes going and try to catch her with an aerial

side platforms just really help in these types of situation, so lemme know if ur using those and if u think they'll help

ok, so if you are afraid to go behind her because of dsmash, you shouldn't be going for uptilt... either go for all falling upair on her, or just use another jump and REST THE DSMASH... its kinda tricky to space, but if u practice ull get the hang of it

uptilt is more used when she's shielding, since then she cannot dsmash, she can only grab or roll or jump oos, all of which lose to a properly timed uptilt (at first just doing it immediately when u land next to her sheild will probably work because they will panic, but once they get used to it, they will start to wait and ull have to guess when they'll try to get out of shield)

I used to be terrible vs turnips until i foudn out nair cuts straight through them... just try it, nair completely wrecks her because it goes through the turnip and hits her, also like i said, i try not to play too defensive and allow them to pick a lot of turnips, but it'll still happen a lot no matter how you play

oh also, after writing this i realized that some of these questions are answered by idea in the mu guide on the first page, you should check that out if u havent yet: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=298777