Social Bair is underpowered - Puff Social/Disc Thread

[AppleAppleAZ]

Guys, guys! This isn't the advice thread, let's get back on topic here.

Why is bair so damn underpowered?

Because you can only do it 5 times before you touch the ground.

 

[Bones0]

Because you can only do it 5 times before you touch the ground.

False!

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

False!

I just realized my miscalculation, touche!

 

[Krynxe]

Because ledgegrabs are a thing

 

[Bones0]

Because ledgegrabs are a thing

Not sure if serious...

 

[Krynxe]

No I'm joking

Ledgegrabbing does not exist

 

[ShroudedOne]

Mahone, I feel like your Puff is a little too legit for the world. You need more Kraft Singles, aka cheese.

/nothingtodowithanything

 

[Bones0]

Mahone needs to WD to adjust his spacing before some of his SH/FH aerials.


@Krynxe
I think you can bair like 7-8 times without landing on the stage or grabbing the ledge. >_>

 

[Krynxe]

I never said that ledge grabbing was the only method by which to surpass 5 bairs. I was just claiming the exception that, with ledgegrabbing, infinite bairs are possible without landing.

Don't worry Bones, I wouldn't make an over-sight like that.

 

[Bones0]

Well I would consider grabbing the ledge "touching the ground" anyway.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Technically, it isn't.

 

[MrHazuki]

The ledge is a part of the ground.

 

[Bones0]

If you want to be a smart***, at least say something that's actually true. You could have went with "you could get more bairs by jumping from the top of Corneria's fin and landing down below," or "you could jump off stage and die over and over without touching the ground."

 

[ShroudedOne]

The game counts getting onto the ledge, and being on the main stage as two different things....I don't think I'm wrong here. Otherwise, Marth would get his full height from sideB back upon getting onto the ledge. He doesn't....

Where did I say something false?

 

[Strong Badam]

That's just a coding error.

If your jumps are refreshed, you exited the air.

 

[Anand]

If your jumps are refreshed, you exited the air.

Sure, but is exiting the air the same as touching the ground? Plus, throws also refresh your jumps (including Falcon's and presumably's Bowser's air grabs), and I'm not sure I'd call that exiting the air.

Well I would consider grabbing the ledge "touching the ground" anyway.

Technically, it isn't.

Also, Peach's float doesn't refresh upon ledge grab, as I'm sure ShroudedOne knows.

 

[Mahone]

Mahone, I feel like your Puff is a little too legit for the world. You need more Kraft Singles, aka cheese.

/nothingtodowithanything

did my vids vs pp come out or something? or were u rewatching something?

anyway, i definitely dont get to use legit as a john after watching mango vs m2k in those friendlies... lol, he definitely plays TOOO legit...

i kinda just am... not very good at this game

Mahone needs to WD to adjust his spacing before some of his SH/FH aerials.

I could believe that for sure, i bet thats applicable to most people/characters as well

That's just a coding error.

If your jumps are refreshed, you exited the air.

Anand and me understand the deep philosophical questions that are being brought up here...

what IS the ground?

is it truly just the lack of air? anti-air? WHAT IS IT??????



i think people are talking about 2 diff definitions of ground here anyway, so it should stop

NOW...

or keep going

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As the judge and jury, and after reviewing the evidence, it has been ruled that the edge is not the ground. Samus does not get her grapple back from grabbing the edge but she does for touching the ground. Same goes for peach's float. The edge is the edge, which is different from the ground.

 

[Bones0]

Just because the ledge has different properties from the rest of the stage doesn't mean it isn't still the ground... If I'm hanging on the edge of a cliff, I'm touching the same dirt that would be considered "ground" if I were standing on it.

 

[Jockmaster]

The question is, is the edge any different for JIGGS than the ground?

Like, wouldn't those characters just be special cases? Ones that defy a mold that applies to the majority of characters?

Just a thought

 

[KrIsP!]

Again we got off topic, read the title guys. Bair. Sucks. Why?

Spoiler

does randall count as the ground... Being a cloud and all be is composed partly of air.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach can pull a turnip on randall. He is ground.

 

[Massive]

From a melee code perspective, your character isn't in a "grounded" state on the ledge (there's actually a bit that says if you're grounded or not), which explains why everything is insane and flyguys molest small children at night.

 

[Bones0]

You don't have to be in a grounded state to be touching the ground.

 

[ShroudedOne]

@Mahone: I was watching your set vs Boss. You try to apply an aggressive style to her that I don't think works anymore. I don't know if my Puff knowledge is credible enough for me to elaborate, so I'll leave it there.

Also what Bones said. You don't adjust your spacing through WD often enough, and I feel like that loses you pressure options that you could otherwise have. Whatever it is Puff does for pressure.

ITT: Semantics. So many semantics.

 

[Bones0]

Only reason I pointed out the WD thing is cause I was watching Hbox matches, and then I rewatched our vid from my minifest, and I realized it was super easy to outspace and counterattack stuff like AC bair/fair because I knew his trajectory before he jumped. Jiggs can't DD to adjust spacing or simply dash towards the opponent in order to overshoot, so WDing towards someone before going up with those aerials seems really important. If I have to respect SH fair and quick WD forward into SH fair, I am much less likely to be able to capitalize on either, and much more likely to get hit by either while trying to predict. Not sure if WDing back would be applicable in the same way.

 

[Massive]

You don't have to be in a grounded state to be touching the ground.

I have actually forced a character to be at ground level but not in grounded state before. It is literally impossible to do in non-hacked gameplay.

You will trigger a landing animation of some kind and your "grounded" boolean will flip.

 

[Bones0]

It's not impossible. Just grab the ledge.

 

[Mahone]

@Mahone: I was watching your set vs Boss. You try to apply an aggressive style to her that I don't think works anymore. I don't know if my Puff knowledge is credible enough for me to elaborate, so I'll leave it there.

Also what Bones said. You don't adjust your spacing through WD often enough, and I feel like that loses you pressure options that you could otherwise have. Whatever it is Puff does for pressure.

ITT: Semantics. So many semantics.

oh ok, i just hate that mu as puff, i have always done significantly better at it with falco and actually used falco vs boss in a tourney like 2 weeks ago... unfortunately there are no vids, but there is like no way i could do that well with my puff

however i think falco is boss' least favorite and probably worst mu, so im not sure how much of my success is due to that, but it does feel like falco just stomps the mario bros pretty badly


anyway, i recently dropped falco as a secondary for fox, but boss/vist **** fox really badly, so i might have to start practicing puff in those mus again, which makes me want to throw up, but in that case we should talk on skype about what u think about those mus, or ofc u can post ur thoughts here.... even though u dont know jiggs, jiggs mains arent *******s like everyone else on smashboards, so if u say 100 things wrong no one will care

although, really it doesnt matter cuz melee is dying

tryin so hard to play with people, but it seems like im the only one willing to travel anywhere to play this game nowadays (outside of tournaments), so i dont really get to practice anymore

Only reason I pointed out the WD thing is cause I was watching Hbox matches, and then I rewatched our vid from my minifest, and I realized it was super easy to outspace and counterattack stuff like AC bair/fair because I knew his trajectory before he jumped. Jiggs can't DD to adjust spacing or simply dash towards the opponent in order to overshoot, so WDing towards someone before going up with those aerials seems really important. If I have to respect SH fair and quick WD forward into SH fair, I am much less likely to be able to capitalize on either, and much more likely to get hit by either while trying to predict. Not sure if WDing back would be applicable in the same way.

ya that makes a lot of sense, i definitely need to work on my movement a lot as puff.... i think its the weakest aspect of my puff game




will u guys shut up about the ground... lets not become awful like every other board...

although tbh, the puff mains arent the ones ruining things here

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm really surprised that I haven't destroyed this board.

Mahone let's talk on Skype or something. I'm bored.

 

[Mahone]

Ok, you have to add me again though, i sent you a message

 

[knightpraetor]

mahone we should record sometime. like sunday or tuesday or something

 

[SirWangster]

i have had trouble against fox cause of his speed. what are some good tactics besides back air?

 

[Krynxe]

Hello SirWangster, please visit this thread to ask/talk about actual gameplay and tactical discussion for Jigglypuff, this is just a social thread. The first post of that thread has a very useful guide with several matchups, including Fox, so I would highly suggest reading that first and using it as a resource. It should help you greatly, especially given how vague your question is, since it covers the Puff vs Fox matchup as a whole, along with several other characters. Remember that it's generally better to ask more specific questions on the boards, so we can give you more accurate and specific answers.

Hope this helps, feel free to ask any other questions here or via PM if you need anything.

 

[Mahone]

crinks is alive?

 

[SirWangster]

how do you feel about a DDng marth and fox?

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

Are there any particular matchups (character-wise) where it would be more viable to be close to the ground (mango) instead of in the air 80% of the time (hbox)? Or does it not really matter, and depend more on your own playstyle more than anything?


*I wasn't sure whether to ask this in Mahone's thread or this one, but whatevs.

 

[Mahone]

i prefer playing grounded in most matchups, and id say that it works best when you are playing a character that can't grab your crouch (marth/sheik/falcon)...

this doesnt need much explantation, if they cant grab you, they lose a huge part of their ground game

id definitely try not to stay grounded vs falco since he can laser above you to stop you from jumping and just generally gets to pressure you WAYYY better if u stay on the ground

fox is weird, i think it just depends on your style and what your opponent is doing really since fox is so versatile

you can dominate peach so well in the air that i wouldnt stay grounded in that mu

 

[idea]

Are there any particular matchups (character-wise) where it would be more viable to be close to the ground (mango) instead of in the air 80% of the time (hbox)? Or does it not really matter, and depend more on your own playstyle more than anything?


*I wasn't sure whether to ask this in Mahone's thread or this one, but whatevs.

marth, unless he's dtilting a lot
fox, when he's just kind of dd camping and waiting for you to land
sheik usually because crouch
ganon, imo
falcon when he's spamming aerials in place or when he's going for grabs a lot (but aerials can be good vs. his grab too as long as you're not being too predictable with how you retreat to the ground)


yeah, i guess a lot of matchups it's good to start out on the ground...jiggs might have 6 jumps but she also has no fall speed, so you can trap yourself just by being in the air.

and if you watch hbox play, he might spend lots of time in the air, but he also usually wavedashes around beforehand, to set up spacing, see if they're trying to attack, see if they're going to wait in shield and he can grab, etc.

 

[AppleAppleAZ]

i prefer playing grounded in most matchups, and id say that it works best when you are playing a character that can't grab your crouch (marth/sheik/falcon)...

this doesnt need much explantation, if they cant grab you, they lose a huge part of their ground game

id definitely try not to stay grounded vs falco since he can laser above you to stop you from jumping and just generally gets to pressure you WAYYY better if u stay on the ground

fox is weird, i think it just depends on your style and what your opponent is doing really since fox is so versatile

you can dominate peach so well in the air that i wouldnt stay grounded in that mu

Thanks Mahone Can you crouch rest Falcon's grab like you can with Marth/Sheik?

marth, unless he's dtilting a lot
fox, when he's just kind of dd camping and waiting for you to land
sheik usually because crouch
ganon, imo
falcon when he's spamming aerials in place or when he's going for grabs a lot (but aerials can be good vs. his grab too as long as you're not being too predictable with how you retreat to the ground)


yeah, i guess a lot of matchups it's good to start out on the ground...jiggs might have 6 jumps but she also has no fall speed, so you can trap yourself just by being in the air.

and if you watch hbox play, he might spend lots of time in the air, but he also usually wavedashes around beforehand, to set up spacing, see if they're trying to attack, see if they're going to wait in shield and he can grab, etc.

Thanks, I do have a lot of trouble dealing with getting trapped in the air sometimes, especially vs Fox.

Bold: I've kinda noticed that, but I deff need to get better at noticing the little things and mindgames that Hbox is so good at.