B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Nausicaa]

Oh, ok then. lol
Still... epic name for an epic kill is epic.

Edit: I'm not sure this got any attention, but it's worth bringing attention to.

UpB Oos is also the same speed as your jump squat. It hits FRAME 4.

I approach with this thing because it's so good. Given approaching with Shield is my favorite approach in all of Smash (except for Yoshi, but PM is gonna be sweet somehow I'm sure), this is even MORE awesome than most 'awesome' Up-B's.

D-Throw > Blaster > Dash > Up-B the back of their head. Hilarious. Not exactly efficient, but I love the thing!

 

[TreK]

Hey, I am training my ZSS right now, and I'm wondering if there are videos of good ZSS videos out there.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

Oro has quite a few vids out there, probably one of the more experienced Zero suits from what i've watched

 

[batistabus]

This might be an odd request, but would it be at all possible to make ZSS...I don't know...a little more filled out? I don't mean like a bigger **** and ass, but I'm talking about just making her body have more of a plausible athletic build. She's skinny as a stick, and compared to her head and feet, her body looks extremely weird, especially in comparison to other characters. Sheik and Snake don't have this problem despite being realistic looking human characters with skin-tight outfits.

I'm not trying to be progressive or anything, I'm just trying to make an aesthetic argument.

 

[SpiderMad]

This might be an odd request, but would it be at all possible to make ZSS...I don't know...a little more filled out? I don't mean like a bigger **** and ***, but I'm talking about just making her body have more of a plausible athletic build. She's skinny as a stick, and compared to her head and feet, her body looks extremely weird, especially in comparison to other characters. Sheik and Snake don't have this problem despite being realistic looking human characters with skin-tight outfits.

I'm not trying to be progressive or anything, I'm just trying to make an aesthetic argument.

Dude, I totally agree with you: but your first point of what you don't mean is the exact fix though. She looks great with the enhanced versions you see on Brawlvault. Wii-fit trainer is also the epitome of that where they try to make them as child friendly as possible, luckily in Brawl they at least put ZSS in and gave her that backwards crawl.

 

[batistabus]

Here are some pictures that emphasize how weird she looks.

Spoiler

She looks like a child compared to other human characters with skin-tight clothing.

Look at the size and width of her feet compared to her calves and thighs.

Sheik looks much more natural and realistic, while still looking feminine.

Look how skinny her waist is.

Side-by-side comparisons with Samus and female MMA fighter Gina Carano.

Verdict:

-Increase the size of her waist significantly.
-Increase the size of her butt significantly.
-Increase the size of her thighs slightly.
-Decrease the size of her feet slightly.

This research was very enjoyable.

 

[SpiderMad]

That was a wonderful post lol, we don't want her to look like SF4's Chun-li though

 

[Burnsy]

That was a wonderful post lol, we don't want her to look like SF4's Chun-li though

Speak for yourself

 

[SpiderMad]

X_<

 

[ph00tbag]

I also just realized that all of these characters' heights are way off. Snake ought to be shorter, ZSS ought to be much taller.

I think Zelda's also technically supposed to be a little taller as well. As I recall, Link is pretty short, on the other hand.

 

[Yeroc]

Dem Melee character heights. Snake is up for grabs, I guess, but ZSS matches regular Samus as she appeared in Melee. Metroid characters just come from a smaller universe, apparently.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

Being smaller makes it easier to infiltrate clearly

 

[?.?]

Being smaller makes it easier to infiltrate clearly

Sheiks dashing animation comes to mind here, many a time in brawl I've been able to approach simply by running up to them... Cough.. Yoshi... Cough

 

[Vixen]

I'm normally a supporter of tapjump, being that I main spacies in melee and abuse the **** out of every jump option I have in the game, is there any benefit to disabling tapjump on zet suit samus for an easier time with up b gimps? I keep seeing situations where I could dropzone upb but I double jump and it ****s me.

let me know opinions.

 

[ph00tbag]

It forces you to be a bit more input-savvy when it comes to up-B and usmash out of shield, and I struggle to do JC Plasma Wire out of runs, since you have to tap y then actually cancel the jump before you leave the ground. Other than that, I've found it to be all-around beneficial to my ZSS game.

 

[Yeroc]

ZSS needs tap jump off. It's pretty much mandatory. You give up a lot of options because the execution requirement is just too high. Learn to pseudo-claw M2K style and your OoS game will still be on point.

 

[SpiderMad]

Or B-stick, which'll ruin your aerials.

If you want to transverse the stage like this you're gonna need either of the two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJm0Wi5O2-U#t=37

 

[Vixen]

i don't think those are enough reasons to justify no tapjump. I'll try it thogh

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

tried messing around with tap jump on.

personal preference that i keep it off, though i can see benefits to getting used to it

 

[Oro?!]

I use tapjump and I think Vidjo does as well. Tap jump off might make things easier in the short run, but I don't feel like there is anything I cannot do without tap jump off.

 

[Vixen]

as a melee vet tapjump is ingrained in to my head.

I literally jump with tapjump, Y, X, and c-stick up. Every jump option has its use and I've incorporated them in to my game.

up for fj aerials, jump cancels, instant DJS.

X for different types of instant double jumps (usually samus and spacies)

c-stick up to make sure i jump on the first possible frame during hitstun.

 

[Nausicaa]

So... how do you Up-B OOS with Tap Jump off?

 

[ph00tbag]

 

[Nausicaa]

So with X/Y > Up-B... cool, I've never used X/Y for that, and Claw-all-day.

Can you do the Up-B reverse stuff just fine with Tap-Jump on, but it's just a tighter timing?
I haven't really had trouble preserving jumps or anything with it, and it seems to work fine for everything I've attempted, but is there actually a specific maneuver that can't be done WITH Tap-Jump on, or what?
If it's just tougher, I give no ****s, if there's something significant that's impossible with it on, then consideration may come into play.

Otherwise, just learn your timings.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

So.. them 3.0 changes, no more clanking all the things!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Question: was usmash always whiffing on grounded characters who are below ZSS' belt in PM? It whiffs now in 3.0, on Kirby and MK among other characters... possibly related to:

- Fixed a bug related to Stage Collision Detection (landing detection) that caused characters to lose height while in certain animations

 

[Oro?!]

SCD only applies on interactions of air moves.

Upsmash has always had a poor hitbox on the ground. It would miss Fox/Falco regularly if they crouched in 2.5/2.6b.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SCD only applies on interactions of air moves.

Upsmash has always had a poor hitbox on the ground. It would miss Fox/Falco regularly if they crouched in 2.5/2.6b.

Was it reduced from Brawl? That didn't really happen in Brawl... ever.

 

[Oro?!]

I'm not really sure if the hitbox sizes were adjusted from brawl, or it's just a side effect of changing model sizes. Due to the ability to CC upsmash when your opponent is grounded, I don't think it would be reliable in any sense of the word even if it did hit as low as say... Mewtwo/Zelda Upsmash.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

it did pick people up from the ground in brawl, but thats been changed in project M... i still catch myself doing it occasionally so its a habbit i'm trying to kick.

 

[Vixen]

Can someone clarify something for me?

In Melee, electric based moves did additional shield stun. Does ZSS not have this perk? Even a delayed nair approach is minus on shield, which brings to question whether or not Nair is as good as move as people initially thought., or if ZSS's moves are actually electric elemental.

I've been experimenting with a lot of Falcon strats. Delayed uair. Instant uair oos. rising uair on the first possible frame, etc. My current favorite thing that I don't see anyone doing is blaster > delayed uair/blaster > rising uair. It's extremely safe. Also playing around with crossups and fadebacks with her aerials. Her aerial movement is so amazingly solid that it just feels more natural to weave in and out of their space rather than directly challenging it. Am I right in thinking this?

 

[Oro?!]

She is pretty much massively negative in any form of sheild pressure, but you are correct that her movement and crossup potential makes it safe. Ability to weave and mix and match moves always keeps your opponents guessing. It isn't something as incredible as spacies or Peach, but it is a formidable game vs shield, and it's the only thing that makes grab somewhat usable aside from pivot grabbing bad approaches.

I ride the Nair train because it is the absolute easiest way to learn how to get maximum punishes as ZSS, and it is something I see everyone struggle with. Once people learn the capabilities of nair, it's insane to see how her combo tree explodes. There are so many moves that you could do in any situation, and none of them are likely "the best". Knowing which moves string together based on DI, percents, and opponents wight/fall speed class is very unintuitive, and so are your options for combo finishers based on those things as well.

 

[ph00tbag]

Nair has always been top notch more as a punisher than for anything else. It can be nice-ish for zoning because of it's massive range, but yeah, it's not really a way to start block strings.

 

[Daftatt]

She is pretty much massively negative in any form of sheild pressure, but you are correct that her movement and crossup potential makes it safe. Ability to weave and mix and match moves always keeps your opponents guessing. It isn't something as incredible as spacies or Peach, but it is a formidable game vs shield, and it's the only thing that makes grab somewhat usable aside from pivot grabbing bad approaches.

Does massively negative mean good or bad?

 

[Vixen]

So I was able to confirm some stuff with Monk and SB.

1. Electric moves have additional hitstun, not shield stun.
2. All of ZSS's moves have ****ty landing lag and don't do enough shield stun. Literally all of her moves are negative on block.

I've been finding myself liking nair less, and uair better for punishes. I use nair as a combo extender, but USUALLY start strings with a low or rising uair depending on the situation.

 

[Strong Badam]

So I was able to confirm some stuff with Monk and SB.

1. Electric moves have additional hitstun, not shield stun.

hitlag, not hitstun.

2. All of ZSS's moves have ****ty landing lag and don't do enough shield stun. Literally all of her moves are negative on block.

there is a very short list of moves in either game that aren't negative on block. this doesn't make them ****ty. -2 is actually not that bad, considering most oos options don't occur til frame 7 or later.

 

[ph00tbag]

Smash is a game where most of a move's advantage comes from travel time.

Like Street Fighter.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

on a lighthearted note, Happy new year guys

 

[Charby]

Remember me?
I will be uploading vids in the near future ^^

 

[ph00tbag]

It's a Brawl ZSS invasion!

But it's okay, Charby's French, so he's terrible at invading.

lolollololl