B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Nausicaa]

I want to hear what others say too.
I'll share what I think is appropriate as bread-and-butter ZSS later, but last I posted about game-play basics here, it was WAY out of the ball-park from the norm, and would be great to see how things have been going.

HASHTAG blaster still sucks I don't care how many lasers you like shooting!!!

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

Isnt it good? its unclankable and im pretty sure you can throw it out and dashdance afterwards

 

[Oro?!]

Laser is very good, but it's not exceptional enough like Falco's to warrant making it your entire neutral game. There are a ton of tricks with laser that are not utilized, and when someone puts in the time to consistently platform cancel and pivot lasers, it will be a much more viable projectile in their arsenal. Uncharged laser can combo into several moves if you dash cancel fast enough as well, so I think the hate that Nausicaa displays for it is a little unwarranted.

There is no "right way to play" ZSS, but from my experience most every ZSS plays pretty defensively, as sort of a walling/zoning character. I have not seen Vidjo play her at all, but this was my reaction from seeing Vanz/Keys/all of the unupdated video thread. I play her more as a rushdown mixup character. Leffen is somewhere inbetween.

Fsmash is really only the ideal move to do if it will guarantee kill someone. sweetspot bair/fair/dive kick will all kill at relatively the same percents but are all viable combo enders based on the last move you hit with, opponent's weight/gravity, and their DI.

I don't really like influencing other people's playstyles though, because I have no idea if what I'm doing is even right or ideal.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS is definitely a mid-ranged zoning character with an emphasis on movement. Her walls are mid-ranged, her combo initiators are mid-range, her pressure is mid-range, even her edgeguarding is mid-range. But she also has a great dash dance and wavedash, which allow her rely on her mobility to get baits and punishes.

She can certainly use her mid-range options to initiate a strong pressure game (and I think she certainly should), but even when she does, she doesn't close the gap much. Mostly she just pressures with dtilt and jab mix-ups into whatever.

 

[Oro?!]

I don't see her mid range tools being effective in the long run, and attribute their success to lack of matchup knowledge on the other side. Just my .02$

 

[ph00tbag]

I think you and I just have a different definition of mid-range.

 

[Nausicaa]

Laser is very good, but it's not exceptional enough like Falco's to warrant making it your entire neutral game. There are a ton of tricks with laser that are not utilized, and when someone puts in the time to consistently platform cancel and pivot lasers, it will be a much more viable projectile in their arsenal. Uncharged laser can combo into several moves if you dash cancel fast enough as well, so I think the hate that Nausicaa displays for it is a little unwarranted.

There is no "right way to play" ZSS, but from my experience most every ZSS plays pretty defensively, as sort of a walling/zoning character. I have not seen Vidjo play her at all, but this was my reaction from seeing Vanz/Keys/all of the unupdated video thread. I play her more as a rushdown mixup character. Leffen is somewhere inbetween.

Fsmash is really only the ideal move to do if it will guarantee kill someone. sweetspot bair/fair/dive kick will all kill at relatively the same percents but are all viable combo enders based on the last move you hit with, opponent's weight/gravity, and their DI.

I don't really like influencing other people's playstyles though, because I have no idea if what I'm doing is even right or ideal.

This part I like.
Aggressive with DD punishing anything they do, mix-up rush-downs with Dive Kick finishers off her easy chains.
I like this part.

I'm not meaning to hate on Blaster, I just encourage people to not use it as often as they're using it, and if they're using it at all, they're probably using it more than I would encourage. Tiz awl, and I therefore I stand by the extreme of STOP!

 

[Nausicaa]

More Down-B OOS is needed for everything from mid-range zoning to aggressive attacking. It keeps her mobile and gets out of sticky situations to reset pressure when you attempt something in a risk-vs-reward calculation and over-extend for it, as well as resets zoning if you're looking to keep pressure from a distance and the opponent closes the gap on an accurate attempt to find a hole in her game.

Double-post because I can.

 

[Caz1]

More Down-B OOS is needed for everything from mid-range zoning to aggressive attacking. It keeps her mobile and gets out of sticky situations to reset pressure when you attempt something in a risk-vs-reward calculation and over-extend for it, as well as resets zoning if you're looking to keep pressure from a distance and the opponent closes the gap on an accurate attempt to find a hole in her game.

Double-post because I can.

Coming to ZSS from Wolf, I fell into the trap of trying to rely on lasers. It just did NOT work, which I'm actually happy about. Letting go of lasers allowed me to find things like the Down-B OOS as you mention, as well as increased reliance on quick spacing and all around more versatile options (I think). Honestly, Down-B has become one of my more preferred counter approaches, as the hitboxes of the attack (if going immediately into the attack) come out incredibly fast, and the knockback sets up further retaliation well. My current issue with ZSS is forcing myself to stop using grabs and Side-B's far too often. I can't stop throwing out the whip :D

General question: What do you guys use for edgeguarding besides down smash camping? I like going to the opponent with fairs or reacting with bairs, but it's becoming harder and harder to resist the temptation of Up-B spiking. Is Up-B spiking a legitimate real thing guys? Please say yes

Off topic since this is my first post here: Is there any way to change my user name/account name that shows up when I post?

 

[Oro?!]

I messed around with downB oos earlier in the 2.5 days. You get frame 4 or 5 invincibility oos if you downB the first frame you leave the ground after jumping out of shield (that never happens). The problem with downB invinc, is that you are actually vulnerable the frame you start moving with downB. You are only invulnerable in the startup before you start moving, basically. That means that any attack that lasts more than 6 frames where you started your downB will net in you getting hit. There is also quite a large gap between the end of invincibility and when you can first divekick/jump out of downB.

Unfortunately, I believe you have to purchase premium on smashboards to change your user name and keep your account in tact.

 

[Nausicaa]

I think Up-B is sometimes known as the Balrog (or whatever that thing with the whip is in Lord of the Rings that brings Gandalf down with it...)
Down-B OOS is mainly to keep mobile, not so much the invincibility. It's just another option outside of WDOOS, rolls, etc, and isn't as desperate as aerials/grab OOS when under pressure. Invincibility is sure nice sometimes though.

Try Down-B Dive-Kicks to edge-guard...
I generally don't like aerials and D-Smash there.

 

[ph00tbag]

Dsmash is best for poking sweetspots and such, since it's more or less unavoidable for many characters. There are some characters you can pressure off stage with bair, but for the most part ZSS is going to be on stage for her edgeguarding. Flip Jump Kick is in a similar boat. It's more useful against some characters than others. It's also a little risky. Use it as a mix-up to make opponents scared of the space control, but definitely don't rely on it.

 

[Oro?!]

UpB Oos is also the same speed as your jump squat. It hits FRAME 4.

 

[Nausicaa]

You can almost always Dive-Kick and recover because the opponent dodges + recovers. It also brings you to the ledge, with takes away an option in itself. She's fast like that.

Down-B knocks Fox down at 0%, CC'd or not. :D

 

[Caz1]

Alright, so I tested the "Balrog" some more today, and I found it to be inconsistent but so satisfying. The inconsistent factor is the way that the move will automatically snap the tether to the ledge if you're too close, so it isn't all that bad. It actually feels like a pretty safe option for me, since the positioning works out such that I'm attacking in a way that can't be taken advantage of. If the enemy tries to attack down onto me they'll just get caught in the whip and swiftly drop to their death. The second Up-B comes out fast enough typically that I can get back up onto the stage with a bair or just ledgehog and force alternate recoveries. Oh, and overall it just adds another thing the opponent has to be wary of when recovering, which hopefully further limits their options.

I don't know, maybe these kinds of plays don't hold up at tournament level. I just find it fun to explore these strange possibilities with the character

As a sidenote, why do her lasers have to be so frustrating! Dash canceling and rooting myself feels really bad. I found myself using them against some characters that had a tough time with projectiles, but it never felt good. ZSS feels best to me when she's super mobile and controlling, and the lasers seemed to work counter to that. I'm not saying the lasers are useless, but rather they don't feel like a good fit for the character. Perhaps it's play style dependent though.

 

[NameChange]

Just picked up Zero Suit today

Should have picked her up earlier

 

[ph00tbag]

Jump, then time the lasers so that you land in time to dash cancel them.

 

[Nausicaa]

^You talking about un-charged or charged?


Good on ya Caz1
Ditch the Blaster. I don't like it either... and it really is detrimental to her game, at all levels of play beyond 'terribad', despite how little people pay attention to it... there's ALWAYS something better to do when the B button is pressed and/or held without direction.

 

[ph00tbag]

^You talking about un-charged or charged?

Either, but there's a preference for un-charged.

 

[Nausicaa]

If I accidentally start charging one, I know that the only reason I'm not afraid is because it's not me on the other side of that blast ready to PS it, hit me before it comes out, or use it to their advantage in some devious mind-game...

lol

Edit: Since nobody has posted for a while, I'd like to say, as I always have...

Pivot D-Smash
Do THAT as BnB ZSS more than anything, and I don't think you'll have ANY issues with any character in Neutral, and it's epic-punishes off it every time regardless of %.
Mix in a few B-airs/N-airs of platforms and around (don't do raw dash > SHFFL aerials much) and Up-B OOS if you can dash > shield > mess up their spacing on something.
Otherwise, D-Smash all day is my suggestion for all ZSS players.

 

[Caz1]

What do you typically follow up a D-Smash with at low percentages? I often find myself dropping combo opportunities because I have the D-Smash -> F-Smash too strongly ingrained into my fingers.

Also, does anyone ever use Zamus's grab? I really want to use it more, but it just feels so punishable and slow

 

[Nausicaa]

D-Smash > Grab
Duh...
lol

 

[Caz1]

Hahaha, well I'm an idiot.

 

[Nausicaa]

Me too.
I F-Smash WAY too much for my own good.
I wish I could angle it, though if I could, I would probably die of an overdose.

 

[Caz1]

It's just such a satisfying move. Especially when they read it and roll behind you and IT HITS THEM ANYWAY.

 

[Nausicaa]

AND COMBOS THEM INTO ANOTHER ONE IN FRONT!!!

 

[ph00tbag]

Dsmash > grab
Dsmash > dtilt
Dsmash > nair
Dsmash > uair
Dsmash > dair
Dsmash > utilt
Dsmash > usmash

 

[GMaster171]

I love doing a sh late nair off of a d-smash hit (unless its in kill %s, where f-smash)

Looks awesome, combos, lots of damage. What's not to love?

 

[Nausicaa]

D-Smash is just amazing, and if you can't pivot it yet, and don't use it as an approach option, or in combo resets, or anything like that, learn to abuse it.
I really am starting to consider it the go-to neutral move.

Though going for anything but Grabs off it is cool, Grabs are too good to pass up... they're kind of stylish too though.

 

[Caz1]

Alright, started following up early down smashes with grabs and my game became significantly better. I love how spammable the Down Smash is, and how easy it is to just stop using it when they try and read it. Zamus's options for mindgames are so damn fun.

 

[Nausicaa]

Why stop when you can just Pivot it constantly for free and for fun and scare the crap out of them from ever doing anything that isn't RUN FOR THEIR LIVES?!?!?

Edit: Move 2 to learn to abuse is her free KO's of nearly any partial edge-guard opportunity because of how broken her Down-B DIVE KICK is.
Just cut off a basic general-angle with it, and hop back to the ledge. Reel in, Down-B straight from a ledge-grab and do it again.
Up to 3 times people!

Otherwise, for the lulz (and it's actually kind of useful to recover in some specific situations), when you Up-B to the ledge, you can just sit there without reeling in, Down-B straight from the hanging position and wall jump > Up-B again. If there's no wall, you need to make sure you still have your jump... otherwise, you can do this up to 3 times too! :D

 

[Caz1]

I'll have to try out dive kick edgeguarding.

One of my favorite Zamus techs now: punishing overzealous shield grabbing by bouncing off of their shield with Dairs and then punishing hard.

Do we have any more recent videos of Zamus than Oro in March (what I saw in the video thread)? I have to imagine the general metagame has evolved since then (less Nair spamming, fewer lasers, etc) as people have become more comfortable with her moveset.

 

[Oro?!]

There's videos all over the place. I didn't want to keep updating it if it was just my videos considering that seems kinda uhhhh, weird.

 

[SpiderMad]

There's videos all over the place. I didn't want to keep updating it if it was just my videos considering that seems kinda uhhhh, weird.

Combo videooo
with a credit to MAD

 

[Caz1]

There's videos all over the place. I didn't want to keep updating it if it was just my videos considering that seems kinda uhhhh, weird.

The Zamus video thread, now with 100% more Oro?!

Also, watched that set you played against M2K at The Big House 3, and I saw you TOTALLY go for 2 separate Balrog kills. I'm so proud :D

 

[Kally Wally]

The Lord of the Rings would have been a much different story if Gandalf knew how to meteor cancel.

 

[Oro?!]

Maybe Gandalf has a terrible tether recovery too and didn't have a double jump :3

 

[Caz1]

Hahahaha, you guys <3

 

[Nausicaa]

OMG, is Balrog a universal ZSS Up-B kill term?
A local named it that like... Day 1 2.5 after doing one and freaking out about it, but wtf, does everyone call it that?
That's... amazing... about how incredibly on the same page everyone is.
I guess it's a LITTLE obvious, but really, too good.

 

[Caz1]

OMG, is Balrog a universal ZSS Up-B kill term?
A local named it that like... Day 1 2.5 after doing one and freaking out about it, but wtf, does everyone call it that?
That's... amazing... about how incredibly on the same page everyone is.
I guess it's a LITTLE obvious, but really, too good.

Earlier in this thread you referred to it as the Balrog to me, and I liked the name