B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[SinisterB]

Just as the title stated, boobs and butts. This is where we will discuss our beloved Queen, from nifty little technical stuff to plain old chitter chatter.

And away.​

 

[Little Nemo]

What are some uses of down b? It's so flexible now that I'm not quite sure what to do...

 

[clowsui]

That depends on the situation you use it in. Offensively speaking it's a very easy way to change up the spacing/timing of your specials + normals. Defensively speaking it's a decently quick escape. Edgeguarding wise it kind of puts you out at 'weird' angles that aren't normally capable w just regular jumps.

 

[GHNeko]

It's also awesome for ledge tricks.

Down b off the ledge, DI onto the stage, Divekick towards the ledge, edge cancel.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Down B seems pretty necessary for recovery too.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Zero Suit seems really fun so far! Her ability to dash cancel her paralyzer and her new down-B are incredibly useful, especially down-B for recovery. Her new down air is also pretty awesome.

 

[Dubforce]

The amount of control over her momentum during her down-b spin animation is insane. You can literally start all of your momentum in one direction and be moving at full speed in the other before the animation is over. As a result you have a lot of control of the attack option out of it and, even more importantly, you can get some INSANE horizontal recovery with it.

Other than that there are 3 things about ZSS I love.
1: Movement
Is it just me or is moving with her SO. MUCH. FUN. her WD is incredible and so is her DD. Shes so ****ing fun to move with.
2: Up-b shenanigans.
Nuff said.
3: Dair.
My god....her dair. Dair > dair or dair > uair or dair > nair is too much fun.


Overall, I love her. The only character I currently like more is squirtle. Easily a possible main.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

I actually find her wavedash pretty bad. It doesn't have that much distance. Her dash dance is good though.

 

[Dubforce]

I actually find her wavedash pretty bad. It doesn't have that much distance. Her dash dance is good though.

No way dude. Her wavedash is too good. Very little lag in/out of it and adding in her dash its too good. She has weird traction too so she seems to slide. I love her wavedash.

 

[GHNeko]

I dont think it's good either. I feel it's on the lesser meh side. Her WD just pales in comparison to her other movement options.

 

[Vashimus]

Yeah, her wavedash isn't that impressive. It doesn't really hurt her that much since she's very fast on her own, and her dash-cancelable neutral B makes approaching a lot easier.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Her wavedash/land is very useful for platform shenanigans, much better than CFs, as is her down-b
I'd go so far as to say she has better overall mobility and stage control than him in fact because of her decreased traction, down-b, and dash cancelable blaster. Definitely less kill power though, which I like because it feels like I have to work more for kills.
it's a shame she can't cancel her blaster with a backwards dash though. Seems kinda unnecessary to make her waste a few extra frames (one if you're frame perfect with DDing) just to turn around after shooting.

Down b off the ledge, DI onto the stage, Divekick towards the ledge, edge cancel.

I wish people would stop referring to plain old drifting as DI
The two are nothing alike and you are only going to confuse newbies, especially since DI is often one of the more difficult concepts for them to grasp

 

[Shadocat]

love doing dair>dair>dair.

is it possible to 0 to death any characters of the top of the screen with that combo.

ive done it once, but it wasnt 0-death.

 

[Revven]

No, DI removes the possibility of 0-deathing someone with Dair. You can very well probably chain at least 3 on someone, but nothing higher than that (unless they DI incredibly bad or not at all).

 

[Yeroc]

If you think ZSS's WD is bad, you're not doing them right. Her perfect WDs are comparable to Marth's.

 

[ShadowSpear]

Whoever said that ZSS doesn't have a good Wavedash, must be on something. lol

-$^

 

[Yeroc]

I wish people would stop referring to plain old drifting as DI
The two are nothing alike and you are only going to confuse newbies, especially since DI is often one of the more difficult concepts for them to grasp

You and me both. I've been trying to get people to call it Air Control since 2004.

 

[MythicVoid]

At least from what I've played (which is more amateur skill than anything else), Zamus seems to be very hard to win with. Often, as my brother likes to play Ike, I can't get my big moves like down smash or side smash, as he is able to hit me or shield, even if he just finished an attack. Maybe I'm playing her wrong, or the match up is bad, but as much as I may combo him into +150%, if you make one slip up, you get seriously punished.

Still fun, but Mario hasn't been replaced as a main for me. Still, she's new, so I will continue to play her.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Whoever said that ZSS doesn't have a good Wavedash, must be on something. lol

-$^

It's not that it's bad it's that she has way better movement options. i'm not saying don't wavedash at all plus it just looks wrong she stands and slides. she doesn't get very low.

 

[Dubforce]

If you think ZSS's WD is bad, you're not doing them right. Her perfect WDs are comparable to Marth's.

For real guys. I see all of you saying her WD is bad or meh or that her other movement options are better. Literally, zero offense meant, but you are just wrong. I recommend experimenting with it some more. Its a very good WD. It has long range, and is quick. Also, her low traction allows you to dash out of it immediately, just like her neutral b. Neutr b> dash out > WD > dash forward is something I often use as an approach.

 

[Dubforce]

At least from what I've played (which is more amateur skill than anything else), Zamus seems to be very hard to win with. Often, as my brother likes to play Ike, I can't get my big moves like down smash or side smash, as he is able to hit me or shield, even if he just finished an attack. Maybe I'm playing her wrong, or the match up is bad, but as much as I may combo him into +150%, if you make one slip up, you get seriously punished.

Still fun, but Mario hasn't been replaced as a main for me. Still, she's new, so I will continue to play her.

Okay here are some things about the ZSS/Ike MU:

1: Ike is a bad MU for everyone but Ike.

2: Use neutral B to approach. You usually want to go for a dtilt, utilt, or grab. ANYTHING, literally anything, that will set you up to use Up-B > jab reset > dsmash > fsmash is something you want to go for.
Uthrow > read di > up-b > jab reset > down smash > fsmash.

3: Dair ***** Ike.

Oh btw, I would like to name that combo.

Up-b > jab reset > dsmash > fsmash

We should call it....**** for tats. Or TFT for short.

 

[Dante']

I find her wavedash good, just not good enough to warrant use over her other movement options in most situations.

 

[DrinkingFood]

1: Ike is a bad MU for everyone but Ike.

you're a pretty funny guy ellondu
i like your jokes

 

[Shadocat]

0 to death d-air > uair works if you get the timing right. i **** you not. just did it on a cpu sonic.

 

[NeoZ]

0 to death d-air > uair works if you get the timing right. i **** you not. just did it on a cpu sonic.

Now go try it on a person and come back to tell us how that went.

 

[ShadowSpear]

It's not that it's bad it's that she has way better movement options. i'm not saying don't wavedash at all plus it just looks wrong she stands and slides. she doesn't get very low.

I disagree. I think you're severly underestimating Zero Suit Samus's Wavedash potental by far. ZSS's Wavedash has a fairly low amount of traction attached to it, which gives it that unique ''stand and slide'' property you mentioned. Now last time I checked, characters that possessed the LOWEST amount of traction usually ended up having the BETTER wavedashes when compared to those that didn't. lol Her Wavedash is very good, viable and is without a doubt an excellent movement option. Easily a ''Marth Status'' WD imo.

-$^

 

[ShadowSpear]

Now go try it on a person and come back to tell us how that went.

Lmao.

 

[Vashimus]

I disagree. I think you're severly underestimating Zero Suit Samus's Wavedash potental by far. ZSS's Wavedash has a fairly low amount of traction attached to it, which gives it that unique ''stand and slide'' property you mentioned. Now last time I checked, characters that possessed the LOWEST amount of traction usually ended up having the BETTER wavedashes when compared to those that didn't. lol Her Wavedash is very good, viable and is without a doubt an excellent movement option. Easily a ''Marth Status'' WD imo.

-$^

Alright, I tried it again, and ZSS does have a pretty good WD. Nice for positioning and to give yourself space. Will I use it as a movement option though? Probably not. She's not Squirtle, after all.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

I disagree. I think you're severly underestimating Zero Suit Samus's Wavedash potental by far. ZSS's Wavedash has a fairly low amount of traction attached to it, which gives it that unique ''stand and slide'' property you mentioned. Now last time I checked, characters that possessed the LOWEST amount of traction usually ended up having the BETTER wavedashes when compared to those that didn't. lol Her Wavedash is very good, viable and is without a doubt an excellent movement option. Easily a ''Marth Status'' WD imo.

-$^

It just lacks distance. It feels more like a sonic WD if anything.

 

[Yeroc]

No. I'm telling you, as the person who designed the character, she has an above average WD length. Longer than Fox, possibly longer than Melee Samus. Nearly as long as Marth's. Honestly. You're just not doing it right if you're not seeing it.

 

[ShadowSpear]

No. I'm telling you, as the person who designed the character, she has an above average WD length. Longer than Fox, possibly longer than Melee Samus. Nearly as long as Marth's. Honestly. You're just not doing it right if you're not seeing it.

^ Agreed.

-$^

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

No. I'm telling you, as the person who designed the character, she has an above average WD length. Longer than Fox, possibly longer than Melee Samus. Nearly as long as Marth's. Honestly. You're just not doing it right if you're not seeing it.

Then it honestly just has to be the animation that makes it feel so off to me.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Great job Yeroc. There's a lot of really fun stuff PM ZSS can do and I'm having a lot of fun. I hope you don't mind some criticism here because I have a few things:

1. She has... a lot of trouble killing. Fsmash is her only strong kill move anymore, several of her brawl kill moves were re-purposed, and uair, which was already more of a "move that can kill sometimes" than a kill move, is less effective here because of increased gravity.

2. Was dash attack nerfed? It feels like it. Feels laggier, and the angle is definitely different. Was this done to prevent dash attack links? Because those are really easy to escape, and now her dash attack doesn't link into very much. Maybe that's the point? Either way, there's almost no point in using it now. Dtilt comes out faster, deals the same amount of damage, and in PM you can do it while running... plus the angle is just more useful and it's probably even safer on shields. ZSS in Brawl has one of the best dash attacks in like any smash game, so maybe it was too strong, but I really think tanking it from "awesome" to "oops I used dash attack" hurts.

3. Ftilt wasn't changed very much and I'm scratching my head a bit... it was right up there with fsmash in terms of usefulness. It's dtilt, but worse. I was almost sure it would be remade... there's a lot of interesting design space potential there.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

The amount of control over her momentum during her down-b spin animation is insane. You can literally start all of your momentum in one direction and be moving at full speed in the other before the animation is over. As a result you have a lot of control of the attack option out of it and, even more importantly, you can get some INSANE horizontal recovery with it.

Other than that there are 3 things about ZSS I love.
1: Movement
Is it just me or is moving with her SO. MUCH. FUN. her WD is incredible and so is her DD. Shes so ****ing fun to move with.
2: Up-b shenanigans.
Nuff said.
3: Dair.
My god....her dair. Dair > dair or dair > uair or dair > nair is too much fun.


Overall, I love her. The only character I currently like more is squirtle. Easily a possible main.

She's really, really mobile.

 

[Yeroc]

Thanks SFP. Here are my thoughts on your concerns.

1. Her killpower is something I've been continually experimenting with, as it's been a continual concern in development. Being such a mobile and combo-oriented character, giving her a lot of direct kill options seemed a little excessive to me. She's got some pretty spectacular gimping moves, though they are somewhat difficult to land at times and occasionally risky, but that's in the nature of super low % gimps I guess. I finally got things to a point where I felt I could justify letting the public see how she fared. Expect changes if she does ultimately prove underwhelming.

2. Dash attack was nerfed in the sense that the numbers on it are worse than they were in Brawl, but this was done to bring them more in line with dash attacks in Melee. Personally I don't follow the philosophy that dash attacks should automatically be poor moves, but hers was far and away better than all Melee veterans' dash attacks, so some trimming down was in order. Early dash attacks should still cross up, and late dash attacks should still link into jab or perhaps utilt as a combo starter. It also is one of her multitude of moves that's capable of resetting on a missed tech, which IMO is pretty stupidly awesome.

3. TBH, I wasn't sure what to do with ftilt. I didn't want a Sheik style combo starter, I was thinking more of just a spacie type of poking move. The low ftilt has some increased power behind it, but otherwise it's still just a poke for mixing up or trying to throw off opponents where jab/dtilt won't reach.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Cool! Thanks.

I guess right now, my concern with ftilt as a spacie-type poking move or cf-type ftilt poke is that ZSS just doesn't need it much. Dtilt is safer on shield and yields more reward, plus it's faster and has almost identical range. Plus her ftilt is nowhere near as good as any of the other poke ftilts.

Now that you mention it, I'm not really sure where I'd go either, given her other close-range options and what she offers there. You could shift it into a faster more gtfo-oriented move, but the answer might ultimately be that dtilt is just way too good.

As for kill options, have you thought about giving usmash higher kb growth? Something like Marth's uthrow in brawl. Like, brawl marth has similar killing "issues" as PM ZSS (in that he has a move or two with good KO power but needs a read), but if the stock goes on for too long, he'll just grab you and end the stock.

 

[Dubforce]

you're a pretty funny guy ellondu
i like your jokes

Thanks xD

Quick question: what are ZSS' best gimping moves, in your opinion? I've been experimenting with her dair an side-b for gimps, but they are both pretty risky. I thought I read yeroc saying she has high ability for gimps, but I don't see it.

 

[MythicVoid]

The problem I have is that her grab has little reward for the risk of missing. If you miss, your opponant will punish you hard. If you get the grab, you can only combo into an eventual sidesmash, which isn't a kill till higher %. I do have to get better at my dair, but I have to constantly tell myself to stop grabbing.

As I have said, I'm probably playing her wrong.

 

[DrinkingFood]

....don't all her throws combo pretty well? i may not have played around with themenough as grabs are difficult to land....

 

[GHNeko]

http://youtu.be/BQecT1fjEBM

Here. have some bad ZSS vs a baby ROB.