B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[MythicVoid]

....don't all her throws combo pretty well? i may not have played around with themenough as grabs are difficult to land....

They all combo beautifully, but actually getting the grab is the hard part. But one thing her grab has going for it is that it looks similar to her sideb. So with any luck, they will shield and you will grab. As the animation is so slow, if they are smart, they will dodge out of the way.

Edit: Actually, I think the way you are supposed to grab is through a dash grab. You have to treat it like you don't have a really slow hookshot and grab more like marth. Just an idea.

 

[Yeroc]

Getting people offstage early is the key to getting most of her gimps. You don't absolutely have to follow them offstage, but fair and bair can kill at absolutely ridiculous percents if you land them beyond the ledge. The safer play is taking people to the edge, then getting them to recover to the stage and using grabs or some other tools to keep them off. Or just a surprise upB either just offstage or from the edge if they're right above you works well too.

Her best grab is her pivot grab. By far.

 

[Dante']

The more I play her the more I think she has the same issue toon link has. I find that she needs distance between her and her opponent to space her moves correctly and for set-ups, but if it's too big she can't kill until VERY high %s. Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Dracula's Castle are my favorites so far. They have lots of space, platforms, and decent size boundaries, all of which help ZSS.

 

[SpiderMad]

Me and my offline friend SD/die easily with this character a ton, in some situations I think down-b will help a little before we use a not-in-range up-b to our doom but I think it loses a lot of its height gain if you're falling at a decent velocity already or something

 

[Dubforce]

Yeah shes pretty hard to use overall, I feel. I would like to see Leffen using her.

 

[GHNeko]

So that he can talk **** about all the other ZSS players?

Yes please. That **** is hilarious.

 

[Yeroc]

Do you guys think we can change the thread title? I sometimes like to skim the forums at work and, well, y'know...

 

[Master WGS]

Roooster is really good with ZSS, honest.

 

[t3chn0g0at]

I appreciate how ZSS' down throw resembles Sheik's NTSC throw. I get all teary-eyed every time I use it; reminds me of a simpler time.

 

[Shaz]

A couple questions:

Why does she dash forward again after a dash grab? I know this was part of Brawl (or at least I think it was), but it always seemed pointless to me. On the small stages, her dash grab is basically half the stage. It means all the enemy has to do is roll toward ZSS and she can't really respond at all. Pivot grabbing is pretty much all I do on smaller stages. Thoughts?

Why is there so much lag before I can upB after downB? Considering jump works, and considering the vertical distance gained by downB, and especially considering the high possibility of SDing after using downB for horizontal distance on stages without walls, I see absolutely zero reason to keep people from using her recovery in such a way. I know this version of PM isn't meant to baby people, but I don't recall any of the original Melee recoveries to be so aggravating to newer players as ZSS's current one.

Could we get her effect of her dtilt swapped with her dash attack? I see from the thread that I'm not the only one using dash just to dtilt rather than dash attack due to both the speed and combo potential. It isn't gamebreaking, but it does feel awkward to have her dtilt outshine her dash attack as her dash attack. ;*)


I find one of her major weaknesses are attacking and defending on diagonals. Without exception, all of her moves hit either directly horizontal or directly vertical, making it easy for many characters (sword users, Ganon, etc) to just jump in and fair without any reliably way for her to punish. I find this to be the main reason why her wavedash is one of her greatest tools, but even then all her long-reaching grounded moves can be reacted to before they connect. We'll see how the metagame develops, but I absolutely wrecked a buddy of mine with shffl fair spam and uairs playing Ganon. Her nair and running away were her only real options.

 

[ph00tbag]

A couple questions:

Why does she dash forward again after a dash grab? I know this was part of Brawl (or at least I think it was), but it always seemed pointless to me. On the small stages, her dash grab is basically half the stage. It means all the enemy has to do is roll toward ZSS and she can't really respond at all. Pivot grabbing is pretty much all I do on smaller stages. Thoughts?

Try JC grabbing.

Could we get her effect of her dtilt swapped with her dash attack? I see from the thread that I'm not the only one using dash just to dtilt rather than dash attack due to both the speed and combo potential. It isn't gamebreaking, but it does feel awkward to have her dtilt outshine her dash attack as her dash attack. ;*)

But then Dash Attack wouldn't set up for tech chases and edgeguards.

Also, DJ traps. :D

I find one of her major weaknesses are attacking and defending on diagonals. Without exception, all of her moves hit either directly horizontal or directly vertical, making it easy for many characters (sword users, Ganon, etc) to just jump in and fair without any reliably way for her to punish. I find this to be the main reason why her wavedash is one of her greatest tools, but even then all her long-reaching grounded moves can be reacted to before they connect. We'll see how the metagame develops, but I absolutely wrecked a buddy of mine with shffl fair spam and uairs playing Ganon. Her nair and running away were her only real options.

Your buddy should have stayed grounded and pivot grabbed whenever you jumped in, if that's what you were doing. Ganon can't really respond to jab1/dtilt pressure from ZSS reliably without just retreating.

 

[Strong Badam]

I love me a good ***.

 

[Dubforce]

No not so he can make fun. He had said in another thread that he was playing her and that he was doing pretty well. I would just like to see how well hes doing, thats all.

 

[Shaz]

Try JC grabbing.

I've been crouching when I can't pivot, but that works too I suppose. It doesn't really answer the question at all though. :/

But then Dash Attack wouldn't set up for tech chases and edgeguards.

Jargon doesn't make a move better; no offense intended. As far as I recall from videos and other players, I've never seen her dash attack made more useful than a fairly bad dash attack. Granted, I've only seen a couple dtilts out of a dash, but it's much safer and sets up combos a hell of a lot better than her regular DA.

Your buddy should have stayed grounded and pivot grabbed whenever you jumped in, if that's what you were doing. Ganon can't really respond to jab1/dtilt pressure from ZSS reliably without just retreating.

Pivot grab Ganon's fair? That's some crazy reading right there. And then the Ganon reads the pivot grab and spot dodges to wizard's foot.

The point isn't that I can spam fair against a new ZSS player; it is her lack of utility against diagonal hits.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've been crouching when I can't pivot, but that works too I suppose. It doesn't really answer the question at all though. :/

Dash grab goes extra distance to distinguish it from JC grab. If you don't want to overshoot, then JC grab. That was my point.

Jargon doesn't make a move better; no offense intended. As far as I recall from videos and other players, I've never seen her dash attack made more useful than a fairly bad dash attack. Granted, I've only seen a couple dtilts out of a dash, but it's much safer and sets up combos a hell of a lot better than her regular DA.

Okay, so you don't understand what I'm saying, and that makes me wrong? No, sorry, that means you have some work to do. Dash attack has utility. Lab with it a bit before you go proclaiming it the worst move in the world.

Pivot grab Ganon's fair? That's some crazy reading right there. And then the Ganon reads the pivot grab and spot dodges to wizard's foot.

Yeah, but you weren't doing that crap. You were shffling fairs. And if your buddy had cottoned on to that at all, he would have beaten you with shffled fair's hard counter. What I'm trying to illustrate is that your anecdotal evidence isn't valid because your opponent didn't know all of his options. I tried to tell you one that will deal with the move you thought beat ZSS, and then you bring up some completely different option that you think could beat it like that makes my suggestion any less valid in the situation you described. It doesn't work like that. I mean, I know we're talking about RPS here, but when I told you you can beat Rock with Paper, you told me your opponent would just throw Scissors. The thing is, you didn't ask me how to beat Scissors; you asked me how to beat Rock. Why ask for advice if you're just going to ignore it?

Incidentally, pivot grab beats a lot of spot dodges.

The point isn't that I can spam fair against a new ZSS player; it is her lack of utility against diagonal hits.

Alright, usmash, uair, bair and fair all hit diagonally above ZSS. Nair is her best option for below herself, but given her relatively grounded nature, ZSS shouldn't be in the air much unless she's punishing a jump-in.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

dairs broken yo

 

[Dubforce]

I think dair is pretty safe on shield. If I **** up and think they are going to punish me I just zip away with down b.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Yeah i always get punished after Dairng zards shield.

 

[Dubforce]

But charizard can punish you for punishing him...

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

But charizard can punish you for punishing him...

Please elaborate.

 

[SinisterB]

Dat NAir, yo.

Do you guys think we can change the thread title? I sometimes like to skim the forums at work and, well, y'know...

Haha my b.

edit-

Took me a second to realize I could do it myself, jeez shoot me now. Anyways if anyone has any cool suggestions feel free.

 

[| Big D |]

Change it to "Dedede is invincible"

*woosh*

 

[SinisterB]

DDD sucks

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[| Big D |]

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n o u

 

[GaretHax]

ZSS is so akward, but her offensive, combo, and spacing game(s) are so perfect. Too much fun guys, I love just bouncing off a person's shield and working myself behind them with (direction) + appropriate air move XD plus shield stun or stun-gun --> grab makes combos pretty easy to start

 

[Dubforce]

I'm starting to like her side-b more and more. Unless they DI away.

 

[GHNeko]

Change the thread title to, "The title used to be awesome but Yeroc complained: ZSS GD"

 

[Flush 5]

Was it not possible to allow wavedash out of the downB? That would be somewhat like Samus' old bomb wavedash, but with much more momentum (I'm not talking about the super WD). Being able to walljump out of it is sweet, recovery from the bottom of Fountain of Dreams is pretty easy. I like how the downB is so similar to the old bombs in look and recovery effectiveness. The flipstool is sweet, I try and mostly fail to hit with it out of dair.. aerials are better follow ups.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can't jump out of down-b so I guess not.

It's a ridiculously good combo escape tool though, you can almost never get combo'd past mid percents. No more fox uthrow->uair for me.

 

[Yeroc]

You can jump out of down B after, uh, I think 25 frames. >_>

Edit: I decided to just give the flip no (additional) landing lag in lieu of allowing air dodges out of it because it already allows a fairly high degree of mobility, and I wanted to give offensive usage some measure of commitment.

 

[WhyNotTurtles?]

ZSS can play Diagonal?

I find one of her major weaknesses are attacking and defending on diagonals. Without exception, all of her moves hit either directly horizontal or directly vertical, making it easy for many characters (sword users, Ganon, etc) to just jump in and fair without any reliably way for her to punish. I find this to be the main reason why her wavedash is one of her greatest tools, but even then all her long-reaching grounded moves can be reacted to before they connect. We'll see how the metagame develops, but I absolutely wrecked a buddy of mine with shffl fair spam and uairs playing Ganon. Her nair and running away were her only real options.

ZSS' nair is quite special because it attacks at a tilted angle. Ganon's fair can be punished by performing nair backwards. In fact, it is possible to counter most shffl'ed fairs by performing a nair BACKWARD. With ZSS facing her back toward the enemy this opens up possibilities, namely her bair. With sweetspot, it hits harder and faster than all of her non-smash attacks! Her fair does more total damage but requires two hits.

This is my speculation, but I think ZSS' aerial game can be played similar to Mario's or DK's, but faster.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You can jump out of down B after, uh, I think 25 frames. >_>

Edit: I decided to just give the flip no (additional) landing lag in lieu of allowing air dodges out of it because it already allows a fairly high degree of mobility, and I wanted to give offensive usage some measure of commitment.

ah, yeah. It's a commitment all right. Can you tell me when you can start snapping to the ledge? I find myself constantly dying while trying to recover to the ledge brawl-style with down-b lol. ...Yeah, definitely a commitment lol

 

[Lunais]

Can we talk some match-ups? What are your guy's opinions on ZSS vs Ike? Specific strategies/combos.

 

[G13_Flux]

well lets start with their mobility options. zero suits faster than ike, has a better WD, quicker jumps, and a down b with good aerial mobility options. ZSS also has a great dash dance for baiting. Ike has his side b which helps a lot, but it looks like ZSS is a little faster over all. i would say this match will be played like a sheik vs marth match, but slower paced, with zero suit shutting down approaches with paralyzer, and trying to bait and punish ike. with a ranged fsmash, ranged side b, and pivot grab, she is going to play very defensively and wait for ike to make the first move.

A smart ike player would stay on her with constant spacing. if hes plays too defesively, she is going to be able to make an approach off her paralyzer. if he play too offensively and doesnt space properly, he will be punished with nair OOS and get comboed. ike out prioritizes ZSS so if he can use range and pressure to his advantage, then its left to look at how Zero suit copes with that pressure. Her down b can offer quick shifts in momentum, and as stated earlier, her WD and DD are long and quick, so im gonna say shell be able to avoid pressure pretty well and mess up ikes spacing. she can bait out a jump too and get under him, which is exactly where any ZSS player wants to be.

Im gonna say his MU is favored towards zero suit. just play it defensively. she has the range and the baiting options, and she edge guards him hard, which is really the only way for ZSS to get kills outside of fsmash, which is a plus. he can kill her fairly early, but if she can screw up his spacing game with her quick speed, and shut down his side b approaches with paralyzer, than i think its gonna be really tough for ike to land a goot hit on her.

 

[WhyNotTurtles?]

ZSS vs Ike

Ike is best at a moderate distance from his opponent that enables him to get a tipper on his aerials. One way to counter that is by getting into close range, but not too close as to let his jabs reach you. Since Ike can cross any distance with his quickdraw, it is not a good idea to stay too far from him.

ZSS' reversed nair can prevent Ike's approach using fair or nair because of the startup time on his attacks. Rely on bair and fair to knock Ike off stage and follow up with whatever edgeguarding tactics. If Ike is out of range, use blaster to prevent quickdraw. ZSS is fast enough to dash behind Ike's fair, if timed well.

The thing to watch out for is when Ike gets up, his sword swing has unexpectedly long range.

 

[Yeroc]

SFP, I believe you can grab the edge with flipjump once you start moving downwards again. About the same point that you can start jumping out of it.

For those that haven't figured it out yet, you can jump out of the dive kick too, after 10-15 frames, or about the distance of a full jump.

 

[Lunais]

Regarding ZSS down-b invin frames, is it something you can rely on to get out pressure situations (aka shines,jabs ect) AS their attack "hits" you?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SFP, I believe you can grab the edge with flipjump once you start moving downwards again. About the same point that you can start jumping out of it.

For those that haven't figured it out yet, you can jump out of the dive kick too, after 10-15 frames, or about the distance of a full jump.

Does it renew your jump ganon style?

 

[Yeroc]

Regarding ZSS down-b invin frames, is it something you can rely on to get out pressure situations (aka shines,jabs ect) AS their attack "hits" you?

She's completely invincible for the first 9 frames. The 4 immobile startup frames, and the first 5 frames of movement. I don't recall offhand the frame counts on perfect spacie shield pressure, but if you get the move started before the shine, it won't hit you.

Does it renew your jump ganon style?

No.

 

[jalued]

Been playing vs ZSS for 2 days now, with my mate getting steadily better and better.

I have no idea how to edgeguard ZSS with diddy kong. It seems almost impossible because if you hit her away she can just downB again (which goes a massive distance) and once she tethers the snap speed is pretty much instant.

If I just hold onto the ledge she goes into her hop animation when getting up, but can just DI backwards to regrab the edge and then she's pretty much back onstage.

Btw my mate realized that ZSS is much better with tap jump turned off. It allows her to use upB much more aggressively offstage: nair-> run offstage-> upB to kill-> recover

Is her upB a spike or a meteor btw?

We have also come to the conclusion that the matchup is in diddy's favour: he is small so difficult for her to hit, has some staple combos on ZSS and diddy's nana's just cause headache for her (especially as she cannot efficiently use them against diddy)