B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[KayB]

Probably just me, but I'm finding it difficult to land dair.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The hitbox is pretty small, but there are a lot of really easy ways to land it. Any time you launch someone into the air at early and middle percents, you can get a pretty free dair out of it. The dair hitbox extends all the way up to the top of ZSS' body somewhere, so it's pretty easy to use it even while juggling. It's not as hard as I initially thought, but I still think it should be made a little bigger in the future.

In the meantime, don't think of it as a combo starter, but as a combo move. Try stuff like utilt->dair->uair->up-b. Almost any time you can uair, you can dair first.

Is anyone having any luck gimping? I feel like her off-stage game is down-right horrible. It's hard enough to avoid SDs, but aside from dsmash at the ledge->footstool or fsmash, I'm not really feeling the gimps, no matter what kinds of risks i'm willing to take. I'm just not sure what to even do off-stage. Side-b pulls them towards the stage, up-air basically saves them, fair is not reliable and doesn't link well, nair is not an option due to the high end lag. Back air is ok but a little awkward to use. In Brawl BTW zss' go-to- off-stage pressure move was side-b followed by bair. This isn't brawl, but I don't feel as though there are any "new" tools that do the job.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah ZSS definitely feels lacking in the "can secure kills" area. Gimping is risking with little reward, and she doesn't have very many high knockback moves. Fortunately, dsmash->fsmash covers a fair area of the edge, I think it probably beats some characters sweetspots too.

 

[KayB]

D-smash > F-smash or just F-smash covers pretty much everything imo. You never really need to go off-stage and gimp.

 

[drsusredfish]

her down b is actully pretty good at gimping since it can "foot stool" characters even while they are attacking. her dive kick gimps pretty well too if you save your double jump and use her up-b boost jump to make it back.

 

[batistabus]

I'm not sure if this has been said before, but it's pretty silly that multiple dairs can kill someone off the top of the map. Even if it is difficult to pull off or wasn't an intentional feature, I think it's something that should be looked into.

 

[DrinkingFood]

...It can be DI'd out of very easily. It's like complaining about Bowser's Koopa Klaw. It chains perfectly into itself on pretty much any non-floaty until kill percent. Without DI that is.

Spoiler

also it's a stage not a map

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Yeah dair just looks stupid but it's not that broken.

 

[\Apples]

D-smash > F-smash or just F-smash covers pretty much everything imo. You never really need to go off-stage and gimp.

Yeah ZSS definitely feels lacking in the "can secure kills" area. Gimping is risking with little reward, and she doesn't have very many high knockback moves. Fortunately, dsmash->fsmash covers a fair area of the edge, I think it probably beats some characters sweetspots too.

Eh, I used to think this but I no longer feel this way after sinking much more playtime with the character.

Dsmash is super good for starting combos and getting you that Fsmash kill, and Dsmash is also safe on shield. ZSS can run away or jab before the defending player can do anything OOS, with the exception of Bowser.

I'm not sure if this has been said before, but it's pretty silly that multiple dairs can kill someone off the top of the map. Even if it is difficult to pull off or wasn't an intentional feature, I think it's something that should be looked into.

I think you're worrying about the wrong things. I don't think this was an oversight and even if it was, the circumstances for when this can actually occur are rare. They require particular characters, particular stages, and either horrible DI by the opponent or insanely lucky reading on ZSS' part.

Then there's the whole... even when it does happen, is it even really a big deal? No, not really.

 

[DrinkingFood]

dsmash->fsmash still requires pretty high percents to kill. If they're mashing properly, you won't have much time to charge fsmash, so you're only probably going to get a moderately charged one, on top of which it's going to be super easy to DI almost perfectly since it doesn't have like an abnormally low angle and it's super slow. It's also not unnaturally strong either (there's a slightly stronger sweetspot isn't there though?), it just seems that way because her everything else is really weak. She still requires pretty high percents to net a straight kill. I'll test some kill percents with DI on certain parts of certain stages tomorrow, I think.

 

[batistabus]

I think you're worrying about the wrong things. I don't think this was an oversight and even if it was, the circumstances for when this can actually occur are rare. They require particular characters, particular stages, and either horrible DI by the opponent or insanely lucky reading on ZSS' part.

Then there's the whole... even when it does happen, is it even really a big deal? No, not really.

I don't know or care much about ZSS, but I do know that it looks really dumb. Game-play comes first, but these types of things do matter. I'm not saying this is a #1 priority, but I don't have anything else to add to this discussion.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

ZSS is the only good character in this game.

 

[drsusredfish]

Im just gona leave these here.

match 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoUEntz4mtI

match 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlNQdOA4VCo

match3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHjpPEjRo1c

 

[Meep]

I don't know if this is already known (or if it's even useful), but if you UAir immediately after falling through a platform and hit with it, you'll end up staying on the platform. It's essentially doing a stationary UAir on the ground.

Video

 

[Yeroc]

Yep. This is something that worked in Melee with various fast aerials. ZSS can do it with uair and, I think bair.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Is it known that you can cancel the ending lag of a grounded charge shot by dashing immediately as the shot goes off(maybe a couple frame after)
Works with any charge. Is nice to full charge shot, cancel the ending lag via running at your opponent, which makes it way easier to combo out of.

 

[GMaster171]

Yep, known well. Its a cancel to make it useful, such as the lasers/PK land cancel, Wolf's airdodge cancel, and D3's wave dash throw. Its really there to make it useful, not such a definite commitment as it would be (right when you press the button, you would be stuck until you shoot, and the endlag otherwise, if it didnt have the cancel, you could think of it as using Bowser's f-smash every time. It has good reward, but is punishable as heck)

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Is it known that ZSS is a bad ***** who doesn't play by the rules?

 

[GMaster171]

I'm thinking of switching Link and Zamus on my character roster, to use Zamus more. The thing I need to know is whether or not Zamus has the tools to go even with the higher ranged characters in the cast (Marth, Ganon, Ike) as my current main has more than a though time countering these kinds of characters. I fell as though with her side-b, charge shot, nair and her overall mobility, she would do really well to counter, but I haven't really played as her much (I refrained from using her at the tourney I went to, as I didn't feel as though I had enough practice with her).

I'v been focusing on spacing with Nair/laser, getting grabs where I can and following up with up-b->grab/jab follow ups. Again, I feel like this would work, but I'd like someone with a bit more experience to show a clearer side of this maybe.

 

[Oro?!]

If you think ZSS is going to have an easier time overall than Link vs basically the cast then I would just drop her. Link does very well vs all 3 that you mentioned even if Marth imo slightly beats Link, it's definitely not bad or unwinnable by any means.

From the limited experience I have vs Ganon/Marth, they feel decent enough. ZSS definitely has the potential to zone and combo them very effectively. I haven't had the chance to play against an Ike as ZSS yet despite living close to Vro and Metroid. : /

I won't give any definitive she wins or loses those matchups because I don't have the necessary experience yet and it would just be theorycrafting at this point.

I started a Video thread here to start getting some worthwhile ZSS discussion going.

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS decimates Ganon.

I think she goes even with Marth, but I'm terrible at that match-up, so I wouldn't be able to give great input.

 

[-Ran]

Oh snap, the thread picture is an edit I did awhile ago. Original picture was kinda crazy. Lol.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/Lol/Edits/Zero_Suit_Samus_WIP_progress.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/Lol/Edits/Zero_Suit_Samus_Z.jpg

 

[SinisterB]

I don't know if this is already known (or if it's even useful), but if you UAir immediately after falling through a platform and hit with it, you'll end up staying on the platform. It's essentially doing a stationary UAir on the ground.

Video

whoa

just noticed this post

Vancity? ZERO SUIT??

You need to come down to Stronghold (our venue) sometime and we can totally do some skank dittos! Along with smash in general. I mean unless you already have been around and I just missed you, then my b.

i'msinisterhai

 

[SpiderMad]

Nice photoshopping skills, can I give you a picture of something and have you do the opposite of what you did?

 

[SinisterB]

oh tight editing skills haha

that original is defs a little too much

Spoiler

but there is never too much

 

[Meep]

whoa

just noticed this post

Vancity? ZERO SUIT??

You need to come down to Stronghold (our venue) sometime and we can totally do some skank dittos! Along with smash in general. I mean unless you already have been around and I just missed you, then my b.

i'msinisterhai

I've been meaning to go to one of the MITH events but things kept coming up. ):

 

[`dazrin]

Meep come chill with me and sinister <3

 

[SinisterB]

exchanged like two words with Meep at MiTH8

cool guy, we defs gotta play next time!

 

[Jonny Westside]

Well, I recently made a Zamus TAS which mainly showcases the wonders of Down B (w/e that move is called) and platform cancelled Uairs. I hope you guys like it :v

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI9GVGp6xwo

 

[Oro?!]

Very entertaining video. Would you want me to add that to the video thread?

 

[-Ran]

I finally have a good capture card. I should be uploading some matches by the end of the week.

 

[ph00tbag]

I love the ledge grab canceled Plasma Wires.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

I'm really starting to feel she needs a real grab not that garbage tether one.

 

[SpiderMad]

I love the ledge grab canceled Plasma Wires.

What's that?

I finally have a good capture card. I should be uploading some matches by the end of the week.

You talk really good info in a similar style that I strive for, look forward to it but wish you also did Diddy research as well =P

 

[standardtoaster]

kyle, I want to play your zss at smym

 

[ph00tbag]

What's that?

ZSS can cancel Plasma Wire by grabbing the ledge. I think you can do it right as the whip gets to its apex.

If I'm not mistaken, she could do it in Brawl, too.

 

[Oro?!]

kyle, I want to play your zss at smym

Alright I look forward to it, as well as some redemption after SCSYN. I underacheived and didn't get a chance to prove myself except in cash battles. : )

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

What CPUs should I train on while I wait to find competent people to play with?

 

[-Ran]

This is what I do:

I set the computer on attack in training mode at Cpu level 5. I then run away from it practicing tech skill. Lol. I never fight them, since they don't DI. I just use it to stimulate pressure. I focus on NOT hitting them with spacing moves as I retreat while doing tech.

 

[Oro?!]

Practicing combos on no DI can be beneficial from a starting point. You learn the general ways moves link together and can build on your tech skill being consistent enough to combo effectively in the first place.

However, for someone who is well versed in Melee and smash competition, CPUs wouldn't amount to much beyond what Ran said. : /