B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Bryonato]

So I won a tournament going 100% ZSS. Winner's and Grand Finals were vs a Marth surprisingly, so I definitely have new input for the matchup thread as well. Videos coming whenever they get uploaded, ^_^

I just watched the VoDs that metroid put up. Awesome stuff man! I saw that you lost in LF then won one set of GF and that was it? You didn't have to win 2 sets? Either way that was really cool. I've been watching the GF set all morning and taking notes haha. When I saw that it was vs a Marth I got pretty excited. I'll be checking the MU thread soon.

 

[Oro?!]

It was really late and Melee GFs were almost done so we called it quits. I had to drive home that night and didn't get back until 3:30am. Would've ended up being past 4 if we kept playing the 3rd set.

 

[RiverDB]

Great stuff Oro, always a pleasure seeing that ZSS in action.

 

[ph00tbag]

Watching Oro's matches, I actually have a PSA about spiking with Plasma Wire:

ZSS mains, please. Please. Never, I repeat: never, use a rising Plasma Wire to secure a spike. If, by chance, they hit the ground, you will not get there in time to punish them, ever.

If you want to spike with Plasma Wire, use it while falling. If you cannot reach them while falling, you cannot follow up your attack. Get to the ground so you can try to punish their landing.

 

[metroid1117]

Oro is da bess, you guys should've seen the hype he was generating in LF and GF. Great stuff Kyle, congrats on splitting 1st with Dart!

 

[Bryonato]

Watching Oro's matches, I actually have a PSA about spiking with Plasma Wire:

ZSS mains, please. Please. Never, I repeat: never, use a rising Plasma Wire to secure a spike. If, by chance, they hit the ground, you will not get there in time to punish them, ever.

If you want to spike with Plasma Wire, use it while falling. If you cannot reach them while falling, you cannot follow up your attack. Get to the ground so you can try to punish their landing.

That's what I noticed a few times during Oro's matches vs Dart was that he would plasma wire Marth and Marth would be ready to retaliate by the time ZSS got back to the ground.

 

[ph00tbag]

That's because he always did rising Plasma Wire.

It's a lot like using Falco's dair. You want to use it when you know you'll get to the ground before your opponent. If you're rising when you hit them, that won't happen.

 

[RiverDB]

Hey guys, i've only posted here once, barely saying anything, so i'll give a short into.
I'm a brawl player from The Netherlands who's been playing P:M for about a month now, and obviously i'm maining ZSS because she's awesome.

I went to a tournament yesterday with mostly veteran melee players, and ended 7th out of 13, which to me was alright even though my loss in losers was one of the worst anti-climaxes i've ever seen in smash(not recorded since WF was being played at the time).

I'll be posting the videos when they are online, hoping to get some criqitue out of them. They are currently being uploaded to this channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Aronia55?feature=watch

Hi Oro?!

 

[Oro?!]

Welcome to the boards. Hopefully they become more active. : /

 

[RiverDB]

So do I Oro, the best we can do is start some activity and hope more people will follow the lead.

My won set in Loser's bracket has been uploaded, instantly exposing my worst MU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzDEhG_3gQ

I hope my set vs Fays in winners gets uploaded soon, since that's the one against Falco in which i'm not sure how i should improve.

 

[BJN39]

Entirely random question here but, I was wondering

Who was/were the main designer of ZSS?

 

[Bryonato]

Yeroc is afaik.

 

[ph00tbag]

Jiang was also involved.

I feel like Ryoko may also have had input? At least early on.

 

[PixelChaos]

Personally, I kinda wish ZSS was a bit better. she's not as good as I hoped

 

[Bryonato]

inb4 Oro!?

 

[Oro?!]

Worst character. Drop immediately.

 

[PixelChaos]

Oro..... dat avatar picture. So beautiful..... Also, ZSS whip should be better. ZSS needs a few more options to approach from. All I really know of is blaster dash cancel, but Maybe I just suck....

 

[Oro?!]

Her "approach options" are definitely limited. It's definitely more of a controlling space and forcing your opponent into a certain space/situation. You can't simply bull rush in with a huge hitbox that has long lasting frames, massive disjoint (that isn't clankable), or rely on your easily power shielded lasers. That being said, the amount of frame safe and fast options that can be used to mix up, cross up, force button presses, and effectively rush down are there.

Definitely the easier and new player friendly style that I see associated with ZSS is Blaster/SideB walling, and using SideB mainly to net combos/strings. That is to say that this IS NOT a bad playstyle, but it can be very ineffective on a matchup to matchup basis.

ZSS has all of the tools needed, outside of maybe a better uthrow for spacies, but you just have to find them. I love this character because of the thought that goes into each move selection as well as the creativity that she allows. She is definitely not a basic character, but she sure as hell is rewarding.

 

[Nausicaa]

What Oro said about rewarding and not basic, having all the tools needed, etc. ^

Though Side-B/Blaster style of play can 'work' I still highly recommend avoiding it, almost entirely. Maybe not entirely, but almost... like, as much as you can.
I Power Shielding the first 2 ZSS Blasters (charged and uncharged) that came my way (as Zard) and it ended in a full stock. To this day, it's increasingly easier to do, and very unreliable.
The most reliable way I've been able to apply Blasters is uncharged quick shots when landing and someone is coming towards you from a distance. Using it when grounded when landing, but quickly and only when your opponent is anticipating a Side-B that you don't perform, so they try punishing.
Or something along those lines going through their head.
Otherwise, it's just too risky if they're not already in a disadvantageous position.
Side-B is nice, but I suggest using the 'presence' of the move, more than actually using the move itself. Does that make sense?
You have it, so use it, but only establish that it's there and you 'will' and revert to not using it. This presence opens a lot of room for you.

She doesn't need help against spacies. A single grab and she can just chase them, whether it's Dash > Dsmash/Grab or something fancy like Side-B/Dive Kick/Aerial>Regrab.
She doesn't need better approaches, she has a neutral-speed game with a grab that can catch anyone if they do nearly anything.

I think I would consider Down-B her saving grace. The offensive use when edge-guarding, or straight KO's, or mobility in all forms and situations.
I get more kills with Down-B than anything else, and suggest looking into applying it more, as there seems to be a lack of discussion about it in these threads.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

I feel like she has a very hard time with pressure because she seems to have very limited OoS options.

 

[ph00tbag]

She has a lot of the standard fare. She actually has a really good wd oos, and her spot dodge and froll are actually pretty stellar, and can be used effectively as long as you don't get too predictable with them. As for more character specific stuff:

Usmash oos can stuff some moves, although its utility is damaged by the fact that it can be SDI'd, and it has special priority (clanks with everything).
Uair oos is one of her best options in the situation since it can lead to combos and resets, and it's fast and has a friggin hueg hitbox.
Nair oos is a little bit less guaranteed than her other aerials, but it has its uses, mostly owing to its huge range.
Bair oos is really good against the larger characters, since it utterly shuts down most attempts to cross her up. It's useless against short characters, though.
Plasma Wire can actually be used against opponents that get too close, and it's actually really safe on hit, unlike most UpBs out of shield.
She can also use Flip Jump by jumping, giving her invincibility four frames out of shield, when executed perfectly. It also gives her a way to mix-up between escaping and retaliating.

ZSS can get out of pressure situations, she's just not a character that can use one move for 50% of her oos game (Bowser, I'm looking at you). When you're feeling out your opponent, it might actually serve you well to let them pressure your shield a few times just to see what their shield pressure tendencies are, then use your options accordingly.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Mostly fox seems to be the problem. Spot dodging and rolling kinda become meh seeing as it's fox and if the fox is just kinda sitting on your shield shining you her airs just seem not to come out fast enough. So you kinda get forced into rolling which you just hope you don't get punished.

 

[ph00tbag]

You can see what kind of mileage Flip Jump gets you. You won't be able to retaliate, but you've got another option for escaping that can't just be blindly punished.

 

[Nausicaa]

She has enough speed and range that generally you shouldn't find yourself in a heavy-pressure situation anyway. Falcon struggles with this just the same, but it's just like fighting a Mario compared to a Jiggs. You want to avoid being close to Mario/going toe-to-toe with him in hits, but with Jiggs you want to chase down between her pokes. Much different games, just play YOUR game and force Fox to play YOUR game instead of his.
It's really not that bad even when you do get pressured. If your shield use is well-toned and comfortable, it won't feel like a weak-point as much, if at all.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

You can't really make fox play YOUR game. He kinda has the ability to make you do what he wants seeing as he doesn't have to commit to anything.

 

[Nausicaa]

Fox has to play a distinct way against Peach/Marth/Falco, sure he can do it, and do it well, but they influence it significantly. They 'have' to force Fox to play a certain way, or he'll pick them apart. Fortunately, they can do that. If ZSS can do it too, than that's what you need to figure out how to do... or Fox will pick her apart.
That's what that was referring to. Force Fox to approach/evade/mobilize in a way that he's not as threatening to you as you are to him. That's all there is to it, the process of this ending in kills is the basis of most fast vs not-as-fast match-ups. Marth vs Pika, Falcon vs Sheik, and the works.
Hope that makes sense.

 

[ph00tbag]

Usually, the way you have to beat Fox is to subtly deprive him of his stage control. On that note, one strength ZSS has on Fox is a lot of options for pressuring platforms, which means he kind of has to commit to being grounded. And while that's not inherently bad for Fox, it does give present difficulties when you're able to deprive him of center stage control, because getting that control back is not necessarily a winning proposition for Fox like it is for him against many other characters.

Incidentally, I suspect dtilt will be a strong tool in footsies against Fox, just because of the ways you can punish his follow-up attempts.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

It's hard to take stage control away from him because he can dominate you in the neutral game. Her lasers become very less effective when approaching or even in the neutral game against spacies in general and that may be one of her best approach options.

 

[ph00tbag]

Welcome to fighting Fox. You will find only one character in the entire game that can actually prevent this state of affairs.

What I'm saying is, having to deal with Fox's options in the neutral game is just kind of a given. Be thankful you play a character with a good wavedash, a good dash dance, and a good punish game. It could really be a lot worse.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Oh i know it could be a lot worse. It just kinda goes back to my point that i think her OoS options are sub par. she just seems to have a meh time dealing with pressure in general. Fox is just the worst possible scenario.

 

[Oro?!]

Hint. Don't shield unless you know they are going to upsmash.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

can't he wave shine ZSS?

 

[Oro?!]

No ZSS gets knocked down by shine. If you miss techs you get put into reactable grab/upsmash situations though, so it's still bad. Also you have way more range and should try to stuff aerial approaches with bair and wd back dsmash.

 

[Nausicaa]

More like 'WD/Pivot Ftilt saves lives' and when Fox is in mid-%, Utilt ends his.
Always pay attention to what knocks him down and what doesn't. It's like how a Sheik's first target is around that 20%~ mark where Fox will tumble/tech from her Dash Attack.
Edit: Tack on that she has needles for 18 in a single direct hit, and good grabs/hard hitboxes galore, she has a way of 'dealing' with it, yet she still has a massive process of precision and 'subtly deprive him' as ph00tbag put it, to go through to keep up with him.

These are massive factors against fast characters, and a huge reason why so much of the cast suffers in Melee. (YLink I think is the only one without a grab that knocks down at 0, everyone in PM should be fine... AKA Grab is good and ZSS has a good Grab)

It's always a process fighting quick characters, that develops with time.

 

[Oro?!]

FTilt will trade with approaches and Utilt can randomly get just the bad hitbox and still trade from a frontal approach. DSmash is great because there is a massive punish follow up and is technically a projectile as ZSS suffers no hitlag. Massive disjoints that lead to BnBs are superior.

Peach will always wavedash back DSmash over any other option as well.

 

[Nausicaa]

Always? I much prefer DD/WD to grab, or even Dtilt, or just Nair/Dash Attack sometimes.
Dsmash is awesome, but it's only an option. Save it for when it's the best option, as Fox won't be hopping in to aerial Peach much anyway. (or shouldn't, at least) Especially if you do it once and are hanging out near an edge.

ZSS doesn't need to hard-hitbox him, she's faster than a Peach and shouldn't really have to risk anything, so that's awesome and means you aren't limited to Evade > Act, you have a lot more flexibility here.

AKA, getting that Dsmash/Grab is great, and she can get the room for it because of her speed, but Ftilt is easy to space in a way that you don't have to trade because of that same speed. (Dtilt is awesome too) and is a great option as well.
Don't neglect that move, it's beastly.

You know this I'm sure, just elaborating.

Also, pivots > WD's back a lot of the time when it comes to Dsmash/Tilts, not just Grabs. They're easy in PM, but I'm not sure people are taking them into consideration when it comes to this topics.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

More like she has great throws. her grab is pretty meh.

 

[Oro?!]

I was specifically talking about spacies when I said always. Sure we could talk about how great all of Peach's other options are from WD back, and even ZSS', BUT vs spacies the risk reward of Peach doing anything other than Dsmash or possibly grab isn't worth it. Also if you have room to continue WD/DDing then it is not really much of a counter to their approach now is it? Same could be said about doing aerials like Nair as Peach or ZSS. If you are trying to beat their approach after a WD back, you most likely do not have the frames to sh aerial. Seriously watch some Armada matches and see the milage he gets out of WD back dsmash when he knows a spacie will jump in than any other option Peach could do.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

But Peach's Dsmash is so much better then ZSS. it covers way more area and is just better in general.

 

[ph00tbag]

Peach's dsmash is easier to punish on whiff, for what it's worth.