B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Oro?!]

A lot of Peaches moves are just straight better than ZSS. That's not how you compare characters though. There are way too many factors that go into how good a character is. It just so happens that if you are facing towards Fox and he is nairing at you, ZSS doesn't really have a move outside of uncharged laser or DSmash that will straight up beat nair. Nair and Dair will just lose completely, and uair will most likely trade or lose depending on your spacing. Tilts are decent options, but 2nd rate to DSmash.

Also ZSS DSmash is deceptively huge, especially vertically.

 

[Nausicaa]

ZSS has a better WD and Pivot to land it for punishing approaches.

I was specifically talking about spacies when I said always. Sure we could talk about how great all of Peach's other options are from WD back, and even ZSS', BUT vs spacies the risk reward of Peach doing anything other than Dsmash or possibly grab isn't worth it. Also if you have room to continue WD/DDing then it is not really much of a counter to their approach now is it? Same could be said about doing aerials like Nair as Peach or ZSS. If you are trying to beat their approach after a WD back, you most likely do not have the frames to sh aerial. Seriously watch some Armada matches and see the milage he gets out of WD back dsmash when he knows a spacie will jump in than any other option Peach could do.

For sure, but the point, is that it's still only an option. Often a WD isn't enough, or Dsmash won't connect. A Fox will mix this up, hence you have to be ready for DD/Grab/Dtilt/Dsmash/anything out of an anticipation/reaction to an aerial approach.
ZSS is just the same, obviously.
Also, DD gives you frames, and is safe as **** (especially considering you can Pivot Dsmash anyway if you want, it won't own a landing-shield Peach-style with ZSS though).

With ZSS, staying mobile is much more valuable than as Peach against fast characters.
ZSS rocks.

Down-B knocks people down at 0% too.
Love that move.

Edit: Peach moves > ZSS moves.
Exactly.
Keep the speed and mobility, and you're set for life.
You know what's up, just more elaboration/practical terms.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

A lot of Peaches moves are just straight better than ZSS. That's not how you compare characters though. There are way too many factors that go into how good a character is. It just so happens that if you are facing towards Fox and he is nairing at you, ZSS doesn't really have a move outside of uncharged laser or DSmash that will straight up beat nair. Nair and Dair will just lose completely, and uair will most likely trade or lose depending on your spacing. Tilts are decent options, but 2nd rate to DSmash.

Also ZSS DSmash is deceptively huge, especially vertically.

I'm pretty sure fox's nair eats right through ZSS uncharged laser if he hits it with the tip of his foot.

 

[Oro?!]

Uncharged laser properties make it so it cannot clank with hitboxes of any sort. It will hit Fox out of nair just like Falco laser will hit out of nair. Charged laser is clankable with every hitbox, and with the massive startup time hardly worth it ever vs a character as fast as Fox, or even the majority of the cast for that matter.

 

[Nausicaa]

A charged laser is basically a free PS > Combo against ZSS the majority of the time.
Uncharged almost all the way will help more, it hasn't been long since the common public Samus in Melee started using uncharged shots more often too. Stick with it if you ever bother with projectiles.
DD tilts and Grab are funner with things flying around.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Uncharged laser properties make it so it cannot clank with hitboxes of any sort. It will hit Fox out of nair just like Falco laser will hit out of nair. Charged laser is clankable with every hitbox, and with the massive startup time hardly worth it ever vs a character as fast as Fox, or even the majority of the cast for that matter.

He could just jump over it. fox doesn't have to commit to anything

 

[Oro?!]

I don't like that term. That's like oldschool 2005 Melee where dashdancing intricately in place was "mindgames". Unless Fox is literally just sitting there, he is committing to something, even if it's running away, jumping over a ZSS laser, or lasering. I could say ZSS doesn't have to commit vs Fox. All you do is shoot a single laser that hits Fox and then crawl under lasers until Fox comes in. Fox is not some godlike untouchable being. He is just a really really good character, that might even be the best character in the game, but he has his share of even or close to even matchups. It just so happens that Fox might be ZSS' hardest matchup in the game. Quite an unlucky lot for a character that has so much potential, but that's the nature of fighting games.

 

[Nausicaa]

Fox has to commit to things if you force him to have to commit to things. A DD Marth = Fox has to find the holes. Do what ZSS needs to do and Fox will have to commit.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Fox can just DD and spam lasers. He doesn't even have to move. so you're forced to approach if he makes you.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not really. You can slowly push Fox back if he's undercommitting. Once he's got nowhere to run backwards to, he's got to commit to an escape option. It's up to you to read that escape. You'll usually deal more damage in each of these exchanges than Fox can deal with lasers alone.

Now, I'm not saying this is easy by any stretch, and good Foxes will mix up approaching and camping and make you second guess the space you try to take from them, but it gives you a way to manipulate the Fox player, which is better than just trying to engage against his dash dance game.

 

[Nausicaa]

If a Fox shoots lasers at a Marth, he'll get grabbed every time.
If a Fox shoots lasers at a ZSS, then same thing applies.

Stay present with a DD-Grab threat and Fox has to make the first move.

 

[Oro?!]

The startup on either JC grab or dash grab are both 20+ frames, and Fox/Falco suffer 4 frames of landing lag from lasers. You are wrong in that ZSS gets free grabs for spacies lasering.

In addition there is no threat to spacies for being grabbed by ZSS. You have no guaranteed combo setups at any %, a chaingrab that works for 20-30 % around mid %s, and other than that have to commit to 1 tech option to get anything significant.

 

[Nausicaa]

lol stats. It sounds like you've never tried to grab someone before.
Sure, you have to make reads sometimes, but you're not limited to their LANDING lag to punish them. DD, if they SH to try aerial/laser/whatever, you can grab them for it (or whatever).

She has some serious process work to go through to make anything happen against Fox/Falco/Wolf/Falcon, that's for sure. Her punish game on them is severely lacking from a flat stock without any decent damage on them already. Lots of development to be done before they become any less difficult to deal with. In the meantime, don't let them shoot lasers at you for free. You can do stuff, so do it.
Some others were here about an hour ago, and one of them asked the other "who do you wanna fight?" and the ZSS player said "not Fox, I'll fight him with Mario or Lucas, but not her, at least not until I'm way better with her"
That seemed to be directly in line with the majority on the Fox vs ZSS topic. haha
To what you can. DD, grab his face.
Dive-Kick knocks him down at 0% with a direct hit, that's always handy, and Down-B is often one of the best ways to not fully commit to anything, but still be threatening and mobile at the same time, both in the neutral game, but more importantly, on the offense in those 'can only commit to one thing' situations.
Otherwise, DD all day.

 

[Oro?!]

You should upload footage of yourself playing because this theorycrafting is really unhealthy if it's this unpractical. ZSS' grab is a high risk low reward mechanic ESPECIALLY against spacies. To say that Dive Kick/Hooligan spacing and DD grab are the go to options in neutral tells me you either do not play against extraordinary Foxes or you do not play ZSS yourself.

 

[Nausicaa]

That's interesting, I'm curious then, and maybe it'll help.
What ideals/methods would you suggest going through with ZSS in the low-% neutral game to deal with Fox?

I like her DD game, usually in attempts to not let Fox laser, and force him to either get on the platforms or make a move on me. Usually using Grab as a punish if it's something I can anticipate, like coming down from platforms/aerial approaches/lasers, and Down-B as a feint/mobility tool to do things like navigate the stage while having the option to attack with something that will knock him down if needed if I manage to bait an approach from him.

What's 'practical' in your experience? This has worked for me.

 

[Oro?!]

Her DD game is very sound you are right about that. Grab is also very necessary in neutral otherwise you will get no respect. The best methods I have found are definitely uncharged laser mixups. You can outrun your lasers if you cancel them fast enough as well as crouch under uncharged ground lasers. dtilt can be spaced to be safe against all of Fox's oos options as well. Spacing Nair and bair is safe as well and your short hop can jump over ps lasers. If you know they are going to shield you can 50/50 them with sideb or grab. I can expand more but basically uncharged lasers into DD/pressure is the strongest and safest neutral game option.

 

[Oro?!]

Edit: double post...

 

[ph00tbag]

The startup on either JC grab or dash grab are both 20+ frames.

These are some seriously dubious numbers. Brawl grabs all came out on frame 16. The developers for PM have absolutely no reason to make that number higher, and I distinctly recall claims that dash and pivot grab are in fact faster than standing grab.

Incidentally, from jumpsquat to landing, a SH laser is 23 frames at the shortest, giving a ZSS that's spacing right at least 7 frames to react to jumpsquat and pivot grab.

Granted, this mixes up well with full jumping, so dsmash is still a better option. My point is really that you're throwing out some really wack numbers.

 

[Oro?!]

They are both 15 frames apparently before the grab box on her hand can grab, and 20 frames before the end of the whip can grab and the grab action on her hand terminates.

Yeah reacting to a Fox short hop lasering at you with a pivot grab sounds pretty practical.

Edit: So the reason I used to 20+ frame window was because I find the whip aspect of the grab much more valuable if you are trying to get a grab in and you are NOT pivot grabbing.

 

[Nausicaa]

b-b-b-but it's impossible to grab Math because Frames!

Every other Fox is theory!



On a related note, if Fox ever SH's on an even-height area of a stage with me around, they get grabbed, nearly 100% of the time unless they're straight up running to the other side of the stage in means of losing any form of stage-control and positioning. As it should be, and as it is with any Fox vs quick character with a grab...
If that's not the case...
Grab moar!
Even if they land after a SHL, you know where they're landing, and they won't be getting away when they set themselves up to be so committed to a maneuver when anywhere on your half the stage.

 

[Oro?!]

You miss a grab, you eat a move that kills you at 80%. You hit a grab, you have nothing guaranteed and do 5-10%.

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, that depends on character, and percent. Spacies at high percents should be dead off a grab. And you can usually turn dthrow into an edgeguard opportunity against characters that don't fall so fast.

 

[Oro?!]

We were specifically talking Fox still I thought.

 

[Nausicaa]

10% > nothing, or anything else that would be riskier and guarantee less damage or follow-up chase, which is easy.
Don't miss the grab, simple as that, and it's not hard if they set themselves up like that.

Or just run away and laser, you know, because that's the best course of action when Fox corners himself on the far side of a stage shooting you...
*sarcasm

 

[ph00tbag]

Well, to be fair, most characters don't have anything guaranteed against Fox off grab at low percents. I think some research has to be done into getting matrices to cover tech options on throws. I think there's a lot of potential there, since ZSS has so much range. And tech chases are the reasons Falcon and Sheik have so many options off grab on spacies, so if that can be figured out in the lab, then ZSS will have a very strong game off grab.

I know that at mid percents you can start getting utilts and usmashes off uthrow. Bthrow can be thrown in to mix up with other throws and it actually combos if they DI up, or it leads to easy edgeguards if they DI down. Fthrow is similar.

At high percents, uthrow is increasingly your best bet.

And I just have to say, Oro, I love your sig.

 

[Oro?!]

@Nausicaa 10% that leads to nothing, or use another one of your long ranged moves that might lead to something. That's my biggest problem with ZSS' grab game. You basically have a better option than grab in 95% of situations, and when you do get a grab, you are forced to kind of hard commit to a single tech option to get anything significant. You can kind of cover every tech option fro Dthrow by dashing forward, dtilting the in place option, and then the only attack you can get out in time if they don't take the tech in place option is dash attack on the outer tech options. If I knew Fox was going to jump to a specific place my grab would reach, why not sideB?

@ph00tbag Actually it seems like a majority of characters have chaingrabs at least have CGs that start before 20%. Examples of this are Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, Wario? (his might start later but he has guaranteed follow ups and can end in finishers a lot of the time), DK, Diddy, Zelda, Ganon, Fox, DDD, Marth, Ike, Pikachu, Ivysaur, Ness. Those are just the ones I am positive about. All of those characters also have follow ups after their CG is over or they run out of stage as well. Tether grabs are usually supposed to be considered the high risk, high reward versions of grabs, yes ZSS has the longest startup and least active frames of any tether grab and basically has only positional advantages or tech chases when your opponent DIs correctly.

Also thanks about the sig. A PMBR member named Jiang drew it for me. I'm going to link the hi-res version to the small one that fits on smashboards if you are interested in seeing the full size one with all of the details.

 

[ph00tbag]

Uthrow cgs are susceptible to platforms, though. There's a reason spacies ban FD.

 

[Nausicaa]

You should be able to re-grab off any tech option simply on reaction. Her dash grab/pivot grabs aren't futile for that.
I'm not a fan of Side-B. Even Down-B Dive Kick on a grounded opponent is fairly safe on shield, shield pokes, knocks people down at 0%, and looks sexy.
Low-Mid %, Down-B rocks for setting up chases. High %, it's the most reliable kill move she has. <3

 

[TM_icecream]

You should become a fan of side B. It's a reallyyyyy good move.
Safe on shield cuz it's range if crazy, and sets up for any aerial or like an up B > tech chase


Hi guys ZSS is pretty and I like her a lot :D

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

What's with the lack of posting ZSS mains? She's not that bad.

How about times to use charged vs uncharged paralyzer? And what to do out of dash cancels? (I hope you weren't lying when you said ZSS's grab was upgraded in some manner) After some more playing with her I usually just stick with uncharged, since losing its priority by charging it kind of sucks. I usually only use charged shots when falling/someone's off stage.

Hype to play more ZSS in 2.6

 

[ph00tbag]

I tend to used the charged shots when there's a lot of space between me and my opponent, since it forces them to respond while I can dash dance and attempt to punish their response.

From what I can tell, grabs are still the same, but the throws are improved. At the very least, dash and standing grabs are still tethers, although they may have had their frame data improved. I haven't looked closely at it.

 

[Giygacoal]

I agree, Zero is pretty decent, but I feel like I'm not using a well fleshed-out moveset. Maybe it's just my playstyle that needs improvement. I end up doing nair to fair a bit too much, though she does already have good specials. I think the PMBR said on stream that 2.6 Zero has some more conducive throws, so hopefully that's enough of a playstyle opener.

 

[dodgepong]

I'm ZSS main but I'm bad so I don't really post much.

 

[Oro?!]

We need a sexy skype chat.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I'd be down for it, I just need to get Skype again

 

[WIDL]

Oh hai. I kinda main ZSS. ZSS/Snake basically. I'm not super good, but I'm decent, I have some videos but the video thread looks kinda dead and the videos are from march. :/

Also, while I'm at it. How does the dash cancel blaster thing actually work? Does it work on full charge as well as no charge? My wii died a few days ago so I can't play around with it, but I hopefully will recieve my new wii very soon!

 

[Axrz]

Oh hai. I kinda main ZSS. ZSS/Snake basically. I'm not super good, but I'm decent, I have some videos but the video thread looks kinda dead and the videos are from march. :/

Also, while I'm at it. How does the dash cancel blaster thing actually work? Does it work on full charge as well as no charge? My wii died a few days ago so I can't play around with it, but I hopefully will recieve my new wii very soon!

It works on both.

 

[Oro?!]

Widl I will update the video thread when anyone posts videos. I didn't see the point of continuously updating with just my videos haha.

 

[Vickyboi]

Hello!
First post here.
How did it go with that skype chat, I really want to talk to people about ZSS and her flipstool shenanigans!

 

[-Ran]

I'll be posting here again after the next update. I finally have local players that want to play Project M.