B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Teh-Shlurpie]

And so, unhappily placing 9th / 64 yesterday (i could've done better) i learned three things

Snake is hella tricksy and his crouch walk is ridiculously useful against us (ty professor pro)

i suck vs ganondorfs, losing to, and almost losing to people i feel i can beat

and i require help not dieing to falcon combos.

hows it been for you guys recently?

 

[Oro?!]

Wolf is the hardest matchup ever.

 

[Bryonato]

Hey guys. We're discussing the ZSS mu over in the Ness boards this week. We would greatly appreciate any insight you guys have on the matchup! Don't worry about following the format, any input is welcome.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-t...-discussion-this-week-zero-suit-samus.348412/

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

so...

anyone with snake/pit match-up experience feel like sharing any tips/tricks that they've learned?
tournament in the UK coming up soon with Professor pro and Armada most likely attending, im going to need all i can get.

 

[Oro?!]

I hope you have a good wavedash out of shield game vs both of them T_T

You can contest with Pit pretty handily in neutral. If you know Pit is going to arrow, you can laser->dash cancel->shield then wd oos and continue to move around. You have the edge in mobility overall, while Pit has the range advantage likely bcuz swords. All you really have to avoid is dair and grab in neutral. They are Pit's most reliable combo starters. When you get sent off stage, preserve your double jump as long as possible. Keep using Hooligan even if you keep getting sniped. As long as the arrow doesn't convert into a fair then it's better than just dying.

Vs Snake you need to really abuse his poor normals. You are again faster than him, and probably beat his entire moveset with nair lol. Be mindful of where Grenades go when he pulls them, throws them, drops them, and glide tosses them. Be aware if there is a mine on the field and/or a C4 (extra important if you are stuck). You can safely blow up mines with sideB/Dsmash and I'm not sure but maybe charged laser.

Be wary as they both chain grab you at low-mid percents.

 

[BILL?]

VS Snake:
Be sure to always mash out as fast as possible if you get hit with a sleeper dart or his throw that knocks you out. The threat of being stuck with C4 is considerably reduced by going full Mario Party on your stick the moment you get slept.
One of my friends plays snake a lot, and that was the first thing I learned about fighting snake. (I died to Uthrow>kaboom off the top so much until I learned that you could mash out of the sleep)
Of course, its best to power shield the dart and not get slept at all. I need to get better at PSing lol.

UpB OoS is a fairly solid OoS option for Snake: There's a hitbox on the cypher itself and he can attack out of it.
Be wary of mines, I have stupidly tech-rolled and ledge-rolled into mines when I thought the snake had failed cover those options. Snake is so tricky.

As Oro said, stuff his normals with Nair. Simple, but it works so well.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

so things seem to have died down a bit, what are people up to

Uni work keeping me stupidly busy >.<

 

[?.?]

I've been trying out other characters... Now playing Bowser, Mario, Snake, Zss, and of course the annoying Sonic. Yet to be interested in Shiek though, sadness.

 

[1FD]

I'm looking for someone to be a contact for the Skype Group for ZSS to add the the community info-hub of it.
Is anyone here active + in the skype group, and want to be listed as a Rep for the Skype Group for ZSS and would you be up for having your smashboards + skype + twitch/youtube/etc in the contact collection so anytime someone wants to join the ZSS skype group they'll know where to go?

Contact me about it somehow.
Also, my Skype is Extra Blue Pajamas

Thanks!

 

[Giygacoal]

Hi guys. I'm thinking about switching my secondary from Fox to Zero to handle most of the matchups my Lucario can't, like Squirtle, Sheik, Falcon, and Diddy. Is ZSS well-established against those characters?

 

[Oro?!]

Actually those are all honestly difficult for ZSS as well. She doesn't like Melee tops or small characters so much.

 

[BILL?]

Actually those are all honestly difficult for ZSS as well. She doesn't like Melee tops or small characters so much.

Sheik aerials can be hard to maneuver around, and she combos ZSS hard. Squirrel is tiny and hard to grab and stuff. Diddly bananas eff with her movement. Falcon is a decent MU but fox is a straight up counterpick to falcon soo...

ZSS is mad fun tho, if you like insane combos (which you probably do if you main lucario) but those matchups aren't the best.

 

[Giygacoal]

Actually those are all honestly difficult for ZSS as well. She doesn't like Melee tops or small characters so much.

ouch.

ZSS is mad fun tho, if you like insane combos (which you probably do if you main lucario) but those matchups aren't the best.

Alright, I'll still stick around here and with her to see what I can do. I do love using her with that stylishness.

 

[Oro?!]

ouch.



Alright, I'll still stick around here and with her to see what I can do. I do love using her with that stylishness.

While they might be difficult, I can't really gauge if they are easier matchups for ZSS in comparison to Lucario... So there is always that

 

[?.?]

Alright, I'll still stick around here and with her to see what I can do. I do love using her with that stylishness.

haha my personal favorite thing to do is a triple Nair string to ledge followed by a wavebounced Up+b running off ledge. Although most of the time I'll keep it to two Nairs simply because the third can make the Up+b less reliable depending on their SDI.

 

[ph00tbag]

Nair strings are the bomb diggity. Zero damage scaling is pretty boss.

 

[Giygacoal]

So what's Zero good at other than making the fat characters feel bad?

 

[Oro?!]

A really solid neutral game and a really solid punish game on a majority of characters. The problem is that a lot of characters invalidate neutral game in Project M to a great degree. In addition, strings into finishers are few and far between on floaties, while getting anything major started on fast fallers requires a series of hard reads.

ZSS is good for being fun.

 

[BILL?]

What do you mean when you say that PM characters invalidate neutral game?
Just wondering.

 

[Oro?!]

Some characters have the ability to escape juggles or pressure situations at will with things like teleports. There are also characters like Link where no amount of dash dancing can help get past his wall. Characters can escape juggles really easily by having teleports or high mobility, low cooldown moves. Also the ever famous "this character is unedgeguardable" always comes into play. You don't get much out of playing the stage positioning game in Project M compared to Melee. You also cannot trap your opponents at the ledge or prevent them from coming down as easily in Project M. Lastly, some characters just prevent any and all interaction because of projectiles or multijumps/flying.

 

[cannedbread]

she's good at hitting people and moving around. imagine a weird falcon and marth hybrid if you ignore her specials.

i like playing as her and all but i don't think she's that good. besides fast fallers being very tedious to deal with, she's a faulty character just by the basis of her design. like, she's a defensive character with no good defensive options. and good combo potential with only a handful of ways to set it all up. i might drop her honestly. her strengths are really quite shallow.

 

[Oro?!]

Dealing with those shortcomings and amplifying strengths is the most melee-esque thing possible to me. It's the main reason I play her and not anything else.

 

[cannedbread]

maybe you're right. please forgive my weakness father oro.

 

[Juushichi]

nope desu

 

[BILL?]

I see what you mean about the neutral game being less dominant in PM. Defensive characters are way more relevant than in melee.

Most of my friends main offensively oriented characters (Spacies, especially wolf, lots of Marth, Falcon, Lucas, Ike)
I guess it comes down to the simple joy of hitting stuff lots of times in a row lol.
I love playing as ganondorf in friendlies and casual games for things as silly as the noises when you hit things and the simple pleasure of filthy forward airs.
I love playing as ZSS for the risk-reward aspects. As well as the creative combos in her punish game.
She has some difficult match ups but I enjoy playing as her enough to make it worth the trouble.
I love fox dittos because something just appeals to me about the speed of that character and the dynamic of insane punishes and potential for a comeback at any time.

 

[indyrenegade]

Currently the matchup that I play the most is my ZSS versus my practice partner's Mario in PM. The issue I have is mostly my fault (I'm really heavy handed with my smashes); so he can counter easily with his cape.

We actually ended up going to my first tournament the other weekend, and I placed last with her in the bracket but it was fun.

 

[cannedbread]

my favorite things to do with zero (in no particular):
•reverse uair gimps
•sh ac uair
•shffl nair strings
•dair > divekick
•punishing tether reel-in with reverse fair
•repeatedly dairing cc happy opponents
•dair > waveland > f/dsmash
•flipstooling opponents from the ledge
•flipstooling the opponents invincibility frames on respawn
•wavebounced plasma whip
•sh ac dair oos
•divekick gimps
•getting a shieldgrab
•pivot dsmash
•wavedash back > dsmashing a bad approach
•divekicking really really low to the ground so that only the quake hitbox comes out (iirc this knocks down every character unless they're ccing)
•shieldstabbing with bair
•pressuring shields with jab1 like samus (i have no idea if this actually works)
•comboing with reverse bair
•stuffing bad dashdances with plasma whip
•getting a perfect read while approaching with dash-cancel blaster
•getting that sick behind hitbox on nair that still sends forward
•cc down angled ftilt

 

[BILL?]

my favorite things to do with zero (in no particular):
•punishing tether reel-in with reverse fair

Wow, that's something i really need to start doing, i had like no idea what to do when i get forced to reel in, if its too late to wall jump I didn't know i had another option than just landing and trying to not get hit by their ledgehopped aerial

Shield grab is trololol. I have to restrain myself from laughing at how dumb something had to be for me to get a shield grab. Like if they Fsmash me in neutral and I shield it, thats how dumb it has to be for her shield grab to actually work.

 

[cannedbread]

i meant punishing your opponents tether reel-in with reverse fair. it's cute stuff in zero dittos. i don't think you have any options when you are forced to ledgehop, although i do remember getting a larger ledgehop than normal once. like a full ledgehop or something.

also just playing around and figured out you can short hop autocancel fast-fall uair
timing is kind of tight but god damn i love uair

 

[BILL?]

The uair is godlike, its like a pika uair. It can send up, it can semi spike, it can send forwards or backwards.
Offstage, that downward angle that it can send just ruins so many characters, its so good from the ledge to send them back out when they land onstage.
And now you tell me it autocancels and fastfalls? i need to figure that out. That would give just 4 frames of land lag, right?
I sometimes auto cancel it onto platforms to allow faster followup juggling, also for shield drop>DJ uair it can autocancel sometimes. never knew it could do that with a SH.

 

[BILL?]

also, I have a question on approaching/winning in neutral. Say i don't want to telegraph an approach by shooting paralyzer, or they have a good way to deal with it. Or I just want to try to mix it up and not laser as much.

Should I use her kinda like fox, with lots of aggressive but well spaced dash dancing, WD to adjust spacing and bait the opponent, and then dash>SHFFL nair on an opening (or use something else than nair, of course)
then on block: jab for safety > begin bair pressure and/or grab if possible
on hit: follow up the nair into combos, nairplanes, edgeguards, or resets into Dsmash
on whiff: chase/punish their evasive option and take positional control, forcing them towards edges?


Speaking of shield pressure, I realize she isnt a spacie, but is it feasible to be able to keep an opponent in shield/force a roll away, or will they always have the option to WD oos to escape the ZSS shield pressure? should i just be ready to react to their roll/WD back and space Bairs/Dairs to avoid being hit by things like grab, Usmash, aerials, or UpB oos?
*random side note on shield pressure: Side-B can poke shield very easily, its almost stupid how often it will poke a practically fresh shield.
Also, what is the most efficient method of shield pressure with ZSS?
if I dont want to poke, just eat their shield. Bair>Bair>Bair type? Fair>Jab>Jab (I have not tested this, but I know CF uses nair>gentleman for shield pressure, and fair has two hits, so this might be similar? Bair>Dair stuff?
Or should i actually want to poke the shield, recognize when that aerial is a good hit, and be ready to chase when they get hit?

 

[cannedbread]

yeah short hop uair auto cancels for 4 frames of landing lag. the sh+ff uair is strict timing but it does work too. i prefer it to shffl uair. dair also autocancels in a sh. sh dair oos is a good punish on a really badly spaced whatever. bair autocancels too but the timing is strict, but not quite as strict as sh+ff uair.

i think oro's advice on the following would be more valuable seeing as though he has the tournament/more diverse player experience but i'll give my two cents anyway:
when you don't want to use the gun, my general go to strategy in neutral is to dd+wd and keep at it until they get to about plasma whip range. i don't usually plasma whip when they're in that range (too much commitment), but i try to poke around with bair, uair, nair, whatever works best until they're in that golden percent where zero can get a lot of strings going. i sometimes throw out dsmash from a reasonable distance.

on block: i have a lot of bad on-shield habits (utilting, dtilting) but in my experience it's best to jab and space your bairs and wait for some sort of oos option. if i notice a lot of habitual shielding whenever i get in on a shield, i go for a grab. like plasma whip, grab is a good mixup but it's a pretty big commitment and i try to limit it so it doesn't get baited out and punished. whenever i know there isn't gonna be some sort of good oos punish (very character dependent) and the opponent has a shield that ate a couple of bairs, i go for the plasma whip because that s*** shield pokes like no ones business. if i have room, i go for dairs on shield, but this is only reserved for the characters with the worst oos options above them.

on hit: fun part. i try to always read the di on uair before i go for more. di away, it's a toss up between more uairs or nairs. nair strings are amazing on characters like sheik. uair is good if they can stay in range to eat more uairs. against fastfallers, i try to reset into dsmash whenever i see an opening, otherwise hit as much as you can safely before going for a techchase. my favorite thing about hitting with zero is reacting to whatever the opponent does to try to regain their momentum and punish it, but this differs between players.

on whiff: if i know there's gonna be a grab on whatever i whiff, run away a reasonable distance before plasma whip OR you could immediately pivot dsmash if you're feeling extra naughty. i generally dislike whiffing with zero because she doesn't have a spectacular dd or something really safe and fast to throw out for insurance in the off chance i whiff when i don't want to.

 

[Oro?!]

Definitely agree about neutral and on block.

On hit is so matchup and percent dependent alongside DI (She basically has DI traps within DI traps between uair/nair/sourspot bair) For the most part here is the general rule- Uair is better as a starter vs Fastfallers and Nair is a better starter vs everyone else.

On Whiff I feel very safe vs a majority of the cast. ZSS has the 5th fastest dash speed and a WD length right behind Marth's

 

[ph00tbag]

My typical opponents may just be inexperienced with the match-up, but I've never been punished for isolated dtilts on block. When properly spaced, most characters can't grab it, and when followed up with a single jab, you can usually stuff a lot of the slower punishes.

 

[Oro?!]

Dtilt isn't very safe vs fast jump squat characters or characters that can attack low to the ground relatively quickly. I get some niche usage out of spaced dtilt->run away, but vs Spacies/Sheik/Marth at least it's highly ineffective. It does blow Captain Falcon up for free though if he shields. Other characters I can imagine dtilt isn't the most effective vs, Pit/MK/Roy/Lucas/Mario

 

[Oro?!]

Dsmash is just so much safer. If you ever have the time to dtilt and you know you have a chance at a free hit on shield, or even might whiff, both scenarios are better if you can manage the 21 frame startup of dsmash.

Most of the utilty I get out of crouch cancelling my run is honestly to run backwards and bait responses from dtilt and dsmash conditioning.

 

[Foo]

Could someone give me a crash course on landing zero suit's downsmash? I can easily land the ledge guard downsmash, but I can't seem to land anything other than that. I'm going to experiment with up-b/jab reset/downsmash, but I haven't had a chance to try that out yet. I think I've gotten decent landing all of her other moves, but downsmash is a really strong move that I can't seem to get off.

 

[?.?]

Well you have to remember it has about 21? frames of startup lag, other than that the hitbox for it is fairly large. I assume you know how to crouch cancel your dash into a smash correct?

 

[steelguttey]

can we all agree that ZSS's upsmash sucks major ass. like every single usage for that move is replaced by up-b.

 

[Oro?!]

It is her worst move yes.