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Axs 3

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
...and? I'm gonna break a harsh truth on you here, your opinion doesn't matter. The TO's opinion does. Why? Because he's actually running the events that you attend. Without the TO's there are no tournaments.
I'm not trying to start anything, but this is definitely wrong. It's the TO's attendees that make the decision, and TOs support those decisions, or we don't attend their events. That's how they justify the MK ban, because the majority of smash players that went to the URC TO's events wanted an MK ban. But I do believe that there was a bit of bias in the whole thing, in that a good portion of the people deciding the whole thing were known to be pro-ban before they even started the vote.

I never really believed in Unity being efficient.
 

Gaia_x

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
2,085
If you come I won't be and I'm the ride for the Rochester area, now if you wanna come the day before or after the tourney to Rochester and stay with jesiah then sure I'll play you all you want.
I'm very competitive. I'd rather spend my money on food or for traveling for a game I actually practice.
To both Goggles and yourself, good that you have a job and its very understandable to not invest money in something you may not enjoy anymore for the sake of seeing like 2-3 people. However you guys haven't profited from any AXS event. Neil maybe made like 5-10 dollars or broke even (maybe but unlikely) and goggles i know you've lost money. And given the fact that neither of you really play anymore I'm not really sure what your expected to get regardless of m2k coming or not. I'd like for you guys to come for hype and community. I know people here want to play you as well as I do since i don't think ive played you both since like axs 1 and even though I really dont like either of you, you guys are good players and still fun to play. But come for the community because i truly don't think you'd be walking away with anything . So hopefully you guys decide to come regardless of who comes or not.

I have a job and unless I think I can at least break even at this tournament I won't be showing up. I need to save money to attend larger events (apex/MVC3 tournies) where I can hand my money to other people :)
Guarantee me people and help me get setups and I will advertise this as well as a side event. This needs to be discussed. I have a meager status in the gaming comm and can't pull for setups. I don't know if Cura can. If you guys can help coordinate this then I am delighted to make this a side event. Fees can be discussed. As you all know, there is plenty of room in the venue to accommodate to side events. Smash 64 is one option. I'd like to get MvC3 up if attendance is high enough.
We are not doing an MVC3 event. I've been talking to nintendude and they are hoping for another smash 64 event and there are current su/esf student that play n64 as well as a couple others. And hamburger has more than enough setups and materials.

I wish I could have thrown a mvc3. I know rochester enjoys playing and a lot of them would be more interested in coming out. However both frannie and I tried to implement it during the early stages of axs3. I know frannie posted on here about it and got little response as well as me personally asking goggles in a PM stating "
If I was to hold a mvc3 side event, how many entrants could you muster up? As well as set ups?" and got no response at all so I just decided against it.

I think you guys are over estimating the cost of coming to a tourny. Even still I understand not being able to come because of money issues and nobody should fault ya. Im certain those guys can find rides if they actually are looking.
also Neil MM me :)
Cost of travel can be expensive when you include it with food/tolls/entry (singles doubles)/venue/Misc. They'd be looking at like 40-50 each (10 gas/7food/Entry fees and money matches/tolls)

I may try to look for a ride, but for now it looks like Megabus can cost $55 for a round trip if I come friday, and leave sunday.

It also looks like the bus station is roughly a 10 min drive from the venue
We would definitely pick you up from the station and house you for as long as you need. Its no problem at all.

Rochester looking super gay right now. Maybe me and everyone else who's not Jesse Neil and San should just stop going to locals because we probably wont win. You guys are kind of ****ting on all the lower level players right now. It's okay for them to lose but if I lose money I'm not going.

And where the hell is JesiahTEG in this thread?
It just really goes to show you what important to the top players and whats important to the lesser players. I enjoy both fun and money.


I have no objections picking Rochester up for a Canada tournament if it's already on my agenda. Just as long as you guys pay your share in gas... and maybe take over driving if snowy conditions make me nervous. I think I'm traumatized from my accident and I'm a typically bad-make-everyone-nervous Asian driver. Neil knows lol
Definitely in no way are we doing this,
Love you :D


To PA: Come out you'll still probably make money
KT We still have out 5$ mm and i will mm anyone else from pa for 1-3$

I will house anyone oor or oos. PA/Canada/M2K and spamus.

edit: didn't check for typos, dont really care, everyone know my typin/english/grammar/punc sucks
edit2: dubz masta
 

Spamus43

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
257
Location
Geneseo, NY
The more that I hear M2K talk about this issue, the more that I find myself agreeing with him, in the sense that it is really unfair for someone to put hours and hours and hours of work into a character (cause you happen to only like playing as that one), and then having that character banned. I'm certain that if Peach were banned, that would anger/sadden me, so I see where he's coming from. At the same time, I'm not sure if there are enough people who are as angry as he is, pulling for this to be changed.
This is a ridiculous claim. If MK is indeed objectively ban-worthy, then the fact that banning him is "unfair" to those people who main him shouldn't even come into the discussion, nor should the fact that the ban was imposed by a potentially biased party. Similarly, if he's not ban-worthy, then the fact that 75% of the community wants him banned should carry no weight.

Now I haven't heard M2K make any arguments against the ban that don't boil down to "he's not that broken" (If I'm wrong, feel free to point them out to me). I have, however, seen people in the official MK-banned thread offer some justifications. Whether or not these justifications are strong enough to warrant a ban, I'm not qualified to say; I don't know enough about the game (and I suspect neither do you).

But from what I've seen, M2K - right or wrong - has just been offering up vitriolic appeals to emotion (in particular, the claim that people only voted pro-ban because it benefits them). And that shouldn't convince anyone who wasn't convinced to begin with.

Edit:
I will house anyone oor or oos. PA/Canada/M2K and spamus.
Lol at being put in the same category as PA/Canada/M2K
 

MCmaniacDBR

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
146
Location
New Jersey
So here's my outlook on the situation.

Backstory, truthfully I would not have been interested in competitive smash were it not for Mew2King, I have enjoyed his playstyle for years and as most people who play with me on a regular basis know I try to implement as many of his methods as possible into my gameplay (although doing it poorly I admit).

So I understand where M2K is coming from. It's wrong to specifically hate out someone especially if they put the effort into making themselves best at their character. I also understand altairan's perspective that M2K shouldn't quit Brawl alltogether just because his character is now banned. M2K even though it was a terrible thing to do to the MK mains of the world, and even if you get people to support you and this rule does get revoked (something that is most definitely in the realm of possibility in my eyes) you shouldn't quit Brawl. When the game first came out you still stomped on everyone with D3, I realize the metagame was a lot less known at that time but everyone knows you're still the most skilled smash player. Play another character in non-MK tourneys and beat everyone, play MK in the MK tourneys and beat everyone. You can do it, and you should do it. If anything it's only more reason to have people join your side that MK should not be banned.


Back on topic about this tournament...

It's mad close to finals week...if I can make it I need a ride

EDIT:

Also for the record. I'd like it for M2K to come, even if it ruins the possibility of winning the tournament for people I'd like a chance to play the guy who inspired me to join this ****ed up community :D
 

Gaia_x

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
2,085
yo moss itd be cool to see you again, you should try and make it out.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
This is a ridiculous claim. If MK is indeed objectively ban-worthy, then the fact that banning him is "unfair" to those people who main him shouldn't even come into the discussion, nor should the fact that the ban was imposed by a potentially biased party. Similarly, if he's not ban-worthy, then the fact that 75% of the community wants him banned should carry no weight.

Now I haven't heard M2K make any arguments against the ban that don't boil down to "he's not that broken" (If I'm wrong, feel free to point them out to me). I have, however, seen people in the official MK-banned thread offer some justifications. Whether or not these justifications are strong enough to warrant a ban, I'm not qualified to say; I don't know enough about the game (and I suspect neither do you).

But from what I've seen, M2K - right or wrong - has just been offering up vitriolic appeals to emotion (in particular, the claim that people only voted pro-ban because it benefits them). And that shouldn't convince anyone who wasn't convinced to begin with.

Edit:


Lol at being put in the same category as PA/Canada/M2K
Actually, that's a very fair point. From what I've seen, the rulesets themselves are largely to blame for his ban, and by himself, he doesn't seem ban worthy. But again, you're right, whether MK mains are put out or not shouldn't necessarily come into play when considering if a character is broken.
 

dudutsai

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
1,714
Location
Lincoln MA
To both Goggles and yourself, good that you have a job and its very understandable to not invest money in something you may not enjoy anymore for the sake of seeing like 2-3 people. However you guys haven't profited from any AXS event. Neil maybe made like 5-10 dollars or broke even (maybe but unlikely) and goggles i know you've lost money. And given the fact that neither of you really play anymore I'm not really sure what your expected to get regardless of m2k coming or not. I'd like for you guys to come for hype and community. I know people here want to play you as well as I do since i don't think ive played you both since like axs 1 and even though I really dont like either of you, you guys are good players and still fun to play. But come for the community because i truly don't think you'd be walking away with anything . So hopefully you guys decide to come regardless of who comes or not.





We are not doing an MVC3 event. I've been talking to nintendude and they are hoping for another smash 64 event and there are current su/esf student that play n64 as well as a couple others. And hamburger has more than enough setups and materials.

I wish I could have thrown a mvc3. I know rochester enjoys playing and a lot of them would be more interested in coming out. However both frannie and I tried to implement it during the early stages of axs3. I know frannie posted on here about it and got little response as well as me personally asking goggles in a PM stating "
If I was to hold a mvc3 side event, how many entrants could you muster up? As well as set ups?" and got no response at all so I just decided against it.


Cost of travel can be expensive when you include it with food/tolls/entry (singles doubles)/venue/Misc. They'd be looking at like 40-50 each (10 gas/7food/Entry fees and money matches/tolls)



We would definitely pick you up from the station and house you for as long as you need. Its no problem at all.



It just really goes to show you what important to the top players and whats important to the lesser players. I enjoy both fun and money.



Definitely in no way are we doing this,
Love you :D


To PA: Come out you'll still probably make money
KT We still have out 5$ mm and i will mm anyone else from pa for 1-3$

I will house anyone oor or oos. PA/Canada/M2K and spamus.

edit: didn't check for typos, dont really care, everyone know my typin/english/grammar/punc sucks
edit2: dubz masta
To PA: Come out you'll still probably make money
KT We still have out 5$ mm and i will mm anyone else from pa for 1-3$

I will house anyone oor or oos. PA/Canada/M2K and spamus.

edit: didn't check for typos, dont really care, everyone know my typin/english/grammar/punc sucks
edit2: dubz masta
edit2: dubz masta
:reverse::reverse:
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
Everybody should come, let's play some smash bros. Accepting all ($1-$5) melee MMs.
melee.
5 dollars.
done.
The more that I hear M2K talk about this issue, the more that I find myself agreeing with him, in the sense that it is really unfair for someone to put hours and hours and hours of work into a character (cause you happen to only like playing as that one), and then having that character banned.
Ill keep this in region. compar m2k, one guy. to me, neil, san, and dr.g. Who have all put in rediculous hours as well to learn how to BEAT meta, and get good at the matchup with our individual characters. Only for Dr.g and neil to default to feeling they have to play mk themselves and me and san still losing to almost everyone of them that we come across?
once again, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

I have no objections picking Rochester up for a Canada tournament if it's already on my agenda. Just as long as you guys pay your share in gas... and maybe take over driving if snowy conditions make me nervous. I think I'm traumatized from my accident and I'm a typically bad-make-everyone-nervous Asian driver. Neil knows lol
Reeeeeeeaally? somethign seems off here...
Definitely in no way are we doing this,
Love you :D
YUP. Saw that one coming.

Also, if me and neil could feasibly lose to more than... 3 people in this region (4 if you cout vibe with neil)Maybe wed actually have some reason to practice.

It's mad close to finals week...if I can make it I need a ride
I believe me and neil still have space.
 

Gaia_x

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
2,085
at this point i think anyone in the region (of skill) can put up a good fight. If you are anywhere near as unpracticed and sanford and my self then you will probably lose to 1 of the well skilled players. An example to show were me and san are in skill at this moment. I almost lost to a kirby main last tournament. And san lost to me. We were both playing pretty terribly. Dont forget that youve also lost to jamesg and drg fairly consistantly as well. Dont count out anyone at this point!
 

MetalPat

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
578
Location
Binghamton NY
honestly m2k, come if you want. **** other people mostly. if you let this happen, it may happen anywhere. people should deal.

plus tho, if you do come and it stops rochester AND nj from coming. i dont really have much to worry about anymore. (not that rochester scared me anyway), but on the safe side, it helps :p
 

Gaia_x

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
2,085
Cept you still have to worry bout me+san+m2k+vibe (who already beat you)+lvl9 luigi
 

MetalPat

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
578
Location
Binghamton NY
Cept you still have to worry bout me+san+m2k+vibe (who already beat you)+lvl9 luigi
legit tho. i do worry about san and m2k. although i havent played you in so long i dont quite know how i would do 1 v 1 with you, and against vibe he definites,ly has the upper hand but i still think that it can generally go either way with us, or close to the last hit.
also, saying that would imply the same for tommy. in retrospect i believe tommy could come close to beating you, and actually alot of the top players in nys. and him and i also go hit for hit most games.

and if lvl9 luigi in in the bracket, then yes him too.
 

Itsnotmyfault

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
485
Location
Monroe, NY
Goggles I played two friendlies with you at KTAR before I was warmed up. I lost both, but at least 1 of them went to high percent last stock. I'm like the worst active Brawl player in the region and you weren't in the realm of the impossible for me to beat. Check your ego.

And we all know lv8 Blue Luigi is a monster. He'll sweetspot up b you across the stage.

And Tommy might have said it as a joke but Pikmin speedrun would be legit.
 

MetalPat

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
578
Location
Binghamton NY
lets get all our egos in check here...
purple luigi. any lvl. hes the real man here.

edit: ill mm anyone $1 for this. my lvl9 purple luigi versus anyones other colored lvl 9 luigi.
 

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
Anyways, since I'm sick of hearing talk about who can beat who and who is going to make money, I'm going to say:

I want EVERYONE to come to this. No Johns. I want to see everyone in the community because it's been like a whole ****in' summer since a good tourney has come along. It'd be mad cool to see everyone getting hype. I want it to be more hype than SS3 (IIRC that was the one I went to).

I want PA to come up and enjoy themselves. Whether they be takin' our NY bills or not. And even if I place bad and get bodied by terrible players like Mako, MetalPat or even Cura, I want to at least be able to say "Wow I enjoyed myself" when I'm on my 2 and a half hour drive back to Troy.

I want M2k to come as well, and enjoy the hype that we provide as Upstate NY Smashers. I want everyone to experience the epitome of the **** talk metagame, that only Upstate NY smashers can provide.

I also want to team with SMM1, so if someone doesn't drive his *** to this tourney, I'll be sure to body Rochester twice as hard next time I see them. There's no reason they can't make it if they just plan accordingly.

No johns people. Get your ***** up here.
 

MetalPat

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
578
Location
Binghamton NY
Anyways, since I'm sick of hearing talk about who can beat who and who is going to make money, I'm going to say:

I want EVERYONE to come to this. No Johns. I want to see everyone in the community because it's been like a whole ****in' summer since a good tourney has come along. It'd be mad cool to see everyone getting hype. I want it to be more hype than SS3 (IIRC that was the one I went to).

I want PA to come up and enjoy themselves. Whether they be takin' our NY bills or not. And even if I place bad and get bodied by terrible players like Mako, MetalPat or even Cura, I want to at least be able to say "Wow I enjoyed myself" when I'm on my 2 and a half hour drive back to Troy.

I want M2k to come as well, and enjoy the hype that we provide as Upstate NY Smashers. I want everyone to experience the epitome of the **** talk metagame, that only Upstate NY smashers can provide.

I also want to team with SMM1, so if someone doesn't drive his *** to this tourney, I'll be sure to body Rochester twice as hard next time I see them. There's no reason they can't make it if they just plan accordingly.

No johns people. Get your ***** up here.
does this mean you wanna lvl9 luigi mm? :)
 

altairian

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
1,594
Location
Ballston Spa, NY
Why, though?
Because more and more people are taking the "if you can't beat him, join him" mentality. Because the majority is the people that fill the pot for the minority that actually wins money. And most importantly, because MK isn't fun. I think a lot of people that play MK don't actually enjoy the character, they just enjoy losing to a broken matchup even less.

The best argument I've seen in favor of banning metaknight is that this character has required MULTIPLE specific rules targetted at him just to make it so he's not completely unbeatable. Specifically the ledge grab limit and the anti-scrooging rules. You have to keep in mind that the MK that we are seeing in tournaments is not the full capabilities of MK, we've had to artificially remove elements of his gameplay in order to put things closer to a level playing field. And despite this, he's still dominating tournaments. How many more MK specific rules can we add to the ruleset before we realize that there's just no way to make him balanced?

This isn't the first time a character has been banned in a fighter. For example I believe there was some version of street fighter in which Sagat was banned in competitive play. There's plenty of Sagat fans out there, they probably didn't like that very much. But sometimes it has to be done for the good of the competitive community as a whole.

It's too bad we don't use a ruleset like in DotA/HoN/LoL where at the start of every match we can ban characters XD
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
Well, saying that MK isn't fun is subjective, to the extent that there are people who like using him, and probably some people (a few, I'm guessing) like fighting him. But I understand what you're saying.
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
Cept you still have to worry bout me+san+m2k+vibe (who already beat you)+lvl9 luigi
I dont believe Ive ever played vibe in tourney, and the only time I thing I played him was one of those rinky dink rit tourneys that I split with neil for first. It was the one I got the video of my fox vs james from. if i didnt play vibe there, then ive never played him.
Goggles I played two friendlies with you at KTAR before I was warmed up. I lost both, but at least 1 of them went to high percent last stock. I'm like the worst active Brawl player in the region and you weren't in the realm of the impossible for me to beat. Check your ego.
You know you out placed me in that tourney right? You know I got last at that tourney right? You know I hadnt played brawl since pound going into that tourney, right? Like, you know I went to that tourney more for being able to see people and play marvel than anything else right? please dont use anything I did at that tourney as a representation of me. Except for when I ***** BPC, I had been waiting to do that for... like years lol.

Ill actually be practicing up for this, and you can accurately assess my skills there.
Why, though?
why not?
This isn't the first time a character has been banned in a fighter. For example I believe there was some version of street fighter in which Sagat was banned in competitive play. There's plenty of Sagat fans out there, they probably didn't like that very much. But sometimes it has to be done for the good of the competitive community as a whole.

It's too bad we don't use a ruleset like in DotA/HoN/LoL where at the start of every match we can ban characters XD
Please dont bring sf references here unless you know the entire story and situation. it makes things annoying.

And aside from that, this topic should have been over already
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
But Goggles, saying why not doesn't give me an answer.

I'll just say this: the fact that it's the opinion of many doesn't make it the correct one. There has to be more than that.
 

VibeSlyph

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
995
Location
Albany/Troy NY
Goggles. I've never played you. And he was talking about MetalPat.

We planned on a MM, but let's face it. Neither of us have the money. : P
 

eeveee

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
336
Should be updating the attendance list soon with some people from my school.

Anyone else that's not already on there? :p
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
Who said anything about you? AFAIK you still don't have your license or a car to drive :) Also I'll be more than happy to talk about the reasons you don't like me on the boards.
goes double for me :awesome:
But Goggles, saying why not doesn't give me an answer.

I'll just say this: the fact that it's the opinion of many doesn't make it the correct one. There has to be more than that.
For the record, im only answering this because its starting to get philosophical and isnt really dealing with the actual rules anymore.

Somebody being in the minority doesnt make their claims inherently correct either.

Its kinda like voting for a president, all the candidates have the good of the people at heart (supposedly) and are trying to make decisions to benefit all parties involved. But each candidate also has their different ways of going about makes the desired improvements. So how do we decide who gets the job of essentially being in charge of the country. Majority. Thats the only fair way to go about it. And its essentially the same concept here. So in order for you to say that the majority is wrong, you have to pretty much make some kind of irrefutable claim about said majority to prove that the minority is correct even though they have less people backing their opinion. And in this situation, theres no way to feasibly do that. because there solid arguments on both sides.
Goggles. I've never played you. And he was talking about MetalPat.

We planned on a MM, but let's face it. Neither of us have the money. : P
oh ok, well I dont think ive ever playing him either, and if I have, it wasnt really memorable.

And Ill definitely have the money to money match you this time. promise.

Rochester melee isn't on the list. How many exactly are coming, idk for sure

:phone:
Talked to jesse yesterday, sounds like at the very least, hes coming, and teaming with asylum, and foy is going, possibly teaming with either juni or nightro.
 

ShroudedOne

Smash Hero
Premium
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
5,493
@ Goggles: I suppose that, in this case, you could only decide what to do with a majority vote. However, my point wasn't that the majority was wrong. It was simply that being the majority doesn't make them right. Being the minority doesn't make that group correct either, there needs to be logical backing on both sides. When there are strong arguments for both sides, I suppose a majority vote is in order (so I suppose I agree with you there).
 

TheManaLord

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
6,283
Location
Upstate NY
You're all being stupid!! There are very few criteria involved

1. You want to go
2. You have the means to go

If both are satisfied then go to tournament, if not then stfu and don't spam this thread with gibberish


it is one thing to defeat my opponents... at this i plan on humiliating them
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
so if cornell is confirmed for this, how are we getting there?
Since ssb64 is confirmed, hamburglar is confirmed (or at least he says he can let me know for sure by the end of this week), and he said he can come to Ithaca on his way up to give us a ride.
 

Spamus43

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
257
Location
Geneseo, NY
For the record, im only answering this because its starting to get philosophical and isnt really dealing with the actual rules anymore.

Somebody being in the minority doesnt make their claims inherently correct either.

Its kinda like voting for a president, all the candidates have the good of the people at heart (supposedly) and are trying to make decisions to benefit all parties involved. But each candidate also has their different ways of going about makes the desired improvements. So how do we decide who gets the job of essentially being in charge of the country. Majority. Thats the only fair way to go about it. And its essentially the same concept here. So in order for you to say that the majority is wrong, you have to pretty much make some kind of irrefutable claim about said majority to prove that the minority is correct even though they have less people backing their opinion. And in this situation, theres no way to feasibly do that. because there solid arguments on both sides.
Disclaimer: I'm trying to articulate my thoughts as I form them, so I reserve the right to retract anything I say ;)

I don't think that the analogy really holds here. In the case of a presidential election, the "need" being discussed is the need for good governance, not the need that a particular candidate win. In that regard, there is no many or few - everyone shares the need. People may disagree on which candidates are most able to offer good governance - that is, are most able to fulfill the need. Because we cannot decide on an objective standard for distinguishing the best candidate we vote. But in effect, what people vote on is really the criteria that should be used to judge a candidate's fitness to serve. And certainly there are some criteria that we dismiss out of hand. If, for instance, a person votes based on physical appearance, or race, or gender, we are inclined to discount their opinion. I'd even go so far as to say that someone who demonstrably votes along these sorts of lines doesn't deserve to vote.

Similarly, in the case of Metaknight we should first look for an objective criteria of ban-worthiness. If such cannot be agreed upon, then (and only then) might a vote be appropriate. But I've seen very little discussion on the general principle of what justifies a ban. People seem to have their own opinions, and no (or little) effort has been made to argue for one over the other. Much like in the case above, certain criteria should be dismissed out of hand. "He's no fun to play against" is not a valid reason for banning a character from a competitive game. And yet many of the "many" who you cite have, by their own admission, voted to ban MK for exactly this reason.

In summary, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few only when the many are not claiming a "need" which is in conflict with some objective principle.
 
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