Axs 3

[dudutsai]

nintendude, do you know how I can contact hamburgler? There are some other smashers here In Binghamton who may not be able to get a ride.

 

[unknown522]

alright, I think I'm going to buy the bus tickets Tmrw or saturday. I'll get back to you all on it

 

[Gaia_x]

Ryan I pm'd you my cell. Get at me.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

Mako, check your PM.

 

[Itsnotmyfault]

Dudu. I'll be driving essentially through Binghamton to get to this, so I could give you and some other people a ride if you help with gas.

 

[Mew2King]

I'll come to this if I get a ride, otherwise I'm not

hopefully you guys can convince kingtoon or someone to take me (if u wanna play me)

 

[altairian]

Please dont bring sf references here unless you know the entire story and situation. it makes things annoying.

Was I wrong about Sagat being banned in one version of SF? If not, then wtf is the point of your comment. The sentence started with "I believe", but even if I was wrong, a purely hypothetical ban of a popular character in another fighting game would have served the same purpose for the thought. Banning a character is always going to upset the people that like that character, and them being upset shouldn't factor in to it.

@ Goggles: I suppose that, in this case, you could only decide what to do with a majority vote. However, my point wasn't that the majority was wrong. It was simply that being the majority doesn't make them right. Being the minority doesn't make that group correct either, there needs to be logical backing on both sides. When there are strong arguments for both sides, I suppose a majority vote is in order (so I suppose I agree with you there).

Another thing to consider specifically regarding the MK ban is that over the past year or two there have been at least two polls (I want to say there was more but I really don't know that for a fact) and the number of people in favor of the ban has increased. When people are completely changing their minds about something, there must be a reason they're doing it.

 

[Mew2King]

Why do people convert to Pro-ban? (most people)

The way it usually works is this (even though I bet that everyone will deny this):

--player sees MK poll, but generally beats MKs - votes anti-ban

*time passes, people on the boards continue *****ing about MK, giving the readers a very biased point of view naturally, thinking MK is better than he really is because that is what everyone else is saying*. (it doesn't help that I went to almost every single national and local for 3 years straight early on, tried to fully master this character very early with the intentions of becoming the undisputed best in the world, had everyone from every region of the U.S. see me play [not including what is on youtube, but that would be an even larger factor] and the results I produced from him early on, then had many people inspired to pick up MK and try the same thing.
So basically there was then made easily-made-aware top-level tactics thanks to videos, as well as inspired high-amount-of-people to wanting to pick him up because they see the tournament results I produced = obviously many good MKs (or MKs that are simply inspired to use him) will be produced. No one even keeps in mind that I did all of this while starting off Brawl from the rank 1 or 2 from Melee, having GREAT understanding and experience already over 99.9% of other smashers that played Brawl about how smash works and good habits and mindsets that carried over from the previous installment. So yes, I do believe I had a great impact on people's opinion of MK and that if I never existed that this would not be an issue, and that the character does not warrant being banned but I am explaining the process the majority of people have to either want this, or the process that would lead them to believe this).

--same player eventually loses to a MK (this is BOUND to happen to almost EVERYONE for the reason I stated just above). No way could this be skill! especially after every person and his mom can read about how "broken" MK is on the boards. It must be the character. So after losing to a MK, which is almost essentially guaranteed to happen to everybody because of me+tyrant+countless mk-minions and followers) this player then slowly starts to want MK gone for either his own gains, or from the bias the internet boards put on him, or a combination of the 2.

--eventually this player may or may not become pro ban over time or through a loss to 1 or more MK players (which is bound to happen some time to almost everyone, especially with how popular he is now). The want for self-gain is prominant in the vast majority of people on this earth. It logically makes sense for a TO to want to cater to the "majority" since that means more people will come to their event. Getting rid of a few MK-pros to gain even more newbs, while not a fair thing to do, is a very logical thing to do for gaining more attendance (and money) at their events. That is what it ultimately is about as a whole for most people. (It also makes no sense for them to admit this, so I doubt any single person would. But think about everything I am saying. Like really think about it). It also makes sense to want to get rid of your competition (without looking like an ******* to do it). By removing people like me and Nairo from EC tournaments, everyone else sees it as an opportunity to flourish and do better. And it is! But for all the wrong reasons. This is a great way to get more attendance (at least for a short period of time. I explained this to MikeHaze and he agreed with me, although his opinion on it is that it's a gimmick), but in no way is this justified at all as the "right" thing to do (unfortunately, that doesn't matter to most people, at least not compared to what I just said).

there is no intelligent reason (for the sake of self-gain or what I just mentioned) for it to work the other way around. I cannot see why anyone would go from pro ban to anti ban if they care about doing better in tournaments themselves. And that's a big reason why the ban eventually happened, and won't be refuted by most TOs except for those with a backbone for doing what they believe is right.

In true honesty almost every person has fell into that category or undergone that process. The vast majority. I swear to god.

 

[altairian]

Your ego is astonishing. I had heard rumors but it's amazing to actually see it in action.

The only thing more astonishing is that you actually believe that's how people made up their minds on voting for an MK ban.

 

[Mew2King]

I'm speaking the truth. I'm not even egotistical tbh

edit - I have exam in a few hours so I'm going to go study

if you have specific questions based on this just PM me, I'll gladly explain a lot of stuff most of you don't know (specifically about the BBR)

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

It may sound egotistical, but what he says is largely true I believe.

I don't think there is any doubt that MK is just better than every other character, but that was largely due to M2K being so dominant with him early on. (BTW I'm only about a year and a half into the smash scene, so this is just going on what I assume and hear. Pretty much any of it is subject to being completely wrong. . . We should actually make that a general rule for most everything I say ) People saw this and tried to imitate it, to varying degrees of success.

I don't exactly agree with M2K on why people would ban him. I feel like people are more likely to ban him due to the fact that he shows up a huge percentage of the time in the top 8 of nearly any tournament. Or that grand finals is so often MK vs MK. Or that people so often use him as a pocket when their mains get stomped. But who am I to know who or why people vote the way they do. As Alt said, there have been votes with increasing numbers of pro-ban. So whatever the reason, majority rules.

Honestly, as much as I want the community to grow, and as much as I don't wanna see MK vs MK in the finals anymore. I wish he wan't banned.

Now I'm not gonna take a huge stand on the issue, I'm mostly neutral on the subject. However, while MK is good, I feel like other characters have much unseen potential (potential that I personally will not be unlocking). After all, the game is still fairly young.

That being said, as sorry as I feel for people that put so much work into MK, and even worse for people who play MK because he's legitimately their favorite character in the game, I do believe that the community will grow from the ban, whether the reason is just or not.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

double post lol

 

[Mew2King]

Even if people don't entirely agree with me or it sounds egotistical, they should still understand that what I say 99% DOES apply to the [vast] majority of people (even though they will probably ALL Deny it, which makes sense). The way this entire thing happened should not have. It's just a majority rule, but characterwise and deserving wise he doesn't deserve to go. It's not really JUSTIFIED at all.

if the melee community would grow a lot from hungrybox being banned from events, would you ban him? I wouldn't. Not justified or fair. It ultimately doesn't come down to that though unfortunately (for the Brawl community anyway)

The unfortunate realization for me is that had I not focused so hard on this game to become the best (even taking off 2 years from college to do it), he wouldn't be banned today. That's where my hard work and obsession got me.

I have never in my life put so much effort towards any specific thing than I have with perfecting my Metaknight in brawl. That's the sad truth

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

I do empathize with you. Having something you worked on so hard be yanked away by a majority vote must be hard (as it probably is for any MK main who spent legitimate time working on him).

However don't you think that brawl has a lot to do with the match ups?

For example, while the minimal amount of tech skill brawl has doesn't translate from character to character, the match up knowledge and methods of play do.

Personally, I think that if you already invested so much time into the game, that picking up another character (like say... ) wouldn't be that difficult.

From a profit perspective I think if you were to continue playing and just use another character you're comfortable with, or at least semi-comfortable with, you'd still do very well. I think giving up the game entirely, no matter how frustrating the situation is, wouldn't be beneficial.

Then again I don't know you all that well so your perspective may be entirely different.

 

[MetalPat]

Personally, I think that if you already invested so much time into the game, that picking up another character (like say... ) wouldn't be that difficult.

yeah it makes sense. since sonic is an easy character and pretty much only used by scrubs.

 

[Mew2King]

What you guys dont know is that the BBR constantly voted down any rule change to make the game better, such as increased timer, or getting rid of any of the gay stages (even brinstar and rainbow). They went as far as to make Delphino a NEUTRA

You couldn't change rules in BBR without a 2/3rds majority vote and I couldn't do that since so many pro-bans were back there. Guess who voted against the 10 min timer and less gay stages? Pro bans. Like specifically, almost only/entirely them.

If you guys only knew how the system REALLY worked you wouldn't be saying those things. They --- PURPOSELY --- made the rules where MK was at his best ever, and voted down any ruleset changes. I could write essays on it if you would like more elaboration.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

5 pages, doubles spaced please.

But really

That's dumb they wouldn't remove stages that make MK so dominant.

I personally believe that we should follow Japan's rules (I think I understand them correctly).

15 minute timer (so time outs are pretty much non existent) and only FD, BF, and SV as the allowed stages. My argument for this is that this game should be about player vs player, not player vs player vs claw on Halberd. Or player vs player vs timer vs Pictochat's many hazards.

While they do make the game fun, it adds randomness to it, which this game clearly already has enough of. (tripping is the best example).

I have no clue how Japan's tournament results look, but I bet you that the MKs aren't as dominant due to the stages. (I mean, they're probably still #1 but not quite so outrageously so).

Also, just as a point of personal curiosity, what things did I say that I wouldn't say had I been more educated as to how the system works?

 

[Mew2King]

Europe and Japan don't have MKs ever winning anything. It's marths there (and one wario) and 2 each for Olimars/ICs in Japan. They also think it's ridiculous USA uses so many gay stages. The Unity thing is mostly being done by the eastern half of the USA. Western half (at least Vegas/Cali) seems to heavily dislike a lot of what they are doing.

BTW I know this because I talked to MR-R, Marc, and Suinoko about it all recently.

 

[RTF]

USA uses so many... stages.

What do you think about the stage selection for Melee in the US? I'd get bored of FD/DL64 (...legal stages in Japan IIRC).

 

[Mew2King]

Melee I'd say all the starters are fine, Poke stad I don't care if it's neutral or counterpick. KJ64 I have split opinion, but the Barrel's randomness makes me think it should be banned, plus it's very easy to time out on that stage compared to every other one. Rainbow and Brinstar have definitely got to go in both games.

Brawl I think the only problem is really rainbow and brinstar. But USA has this thing where they have a fetish for ******** stages being legal, even though the pro ban members from BBR did that just to make sure MK would have the best rules possible for him so he could get banned later. I saw that (and so did t1mmy or t0mmy a long time ago in early 2010 from allisbrawl and they made a blog about it on aib) a long time ago but couldn't stop it because of lack of anti-ban members (it was too evenly split but you needed 2/3rds majority to pass a vote).

 

[MetalPat]

in this thread
>everything but axs tournament

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

At least it's good conversation.

 

[Gaia_x]

Constructive and opinionated!

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

Is the opinion that it is constructive?

 

[Gaia_x]

More like constructing opinions based on constructive opinions.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

And it'll star Leonardo DiCaprio.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Just a quick note.

My personal story goes like this.

Goes to tourneys for brawl.

Gets good at the game

Loses to local MKs because they are better than me.

Practice really hard and learn and dissect everything I can in the metaknight matchup.

Beat local MKs.

Travel to big tournaments. Lose to metaknights that are as good as me simply because mk is a better character.

Decide to pick up MK and to see for myself how busted and OP he is.

Start beating people clearly more skilled than me because the character is borked.

Go back to Sonic because I can see the everyone else is going to play mk too and im terrible at the ditto. Train and practice the matchup even more.

Then go to bigger tournaments and lose to obscure character because I was forced to spend all of my practice time learning how to fight mk.

And than after that possibly lose to MKs that are clearly worse players then me, simply because they know how to abuse MK.


IMO the game just focuses on MK too much to be acceptable.

And m2k I see your logic. But one of the main things i always loved about smash was the openness, and freeform method of gameplay, which included tons of different stages. Because you had to adapt to to different layouts of each stage. People always say, I dont like having to fight the stage. But thats what makes smash unique. People are free to play any traditional rigid fighter like Street Fighter, if they dont like interacting with the environment.

I also never understood the concept of time outs not being a legitamate method of victory.

That being said, a neutrals only stage list, and an extended timer just seems to me like more MK centric rules. Which just further goes to prove how busted he is.

 

[VibeSlyph]

I also never understood the concept of time outs not being a legitamate method of victory.

Story of a Sonic main.

Edit: I like having counterpicks, but I don't think there should be a huge counterpick list. I loved the counterpick list at Best 4.

Edit2: But with MK banned, I defniitely will say I can finally enjoy counterpicking people to brinstar without them switching to MK.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Story of a Sonic main.

thats ignorant.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I personally don't like the idea of timeouts, nor do I think it's legitimate, but there isn't a rule against it. I guess I'll just make sure I never get timed out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

it is now my goal to either time you out or kill you flat out with one of ganons throws, which ever happens first.


and if you dont like the idea of winning by a time limit, you shouldnt put time limits on your games. I would love to play a match with no time limit, and if you want to make it sweeter, you can play on temple too.

 

[Gaia_x]

I agree with kyle in a since. The only reason i really play is due to the simplicity. I can use ic vs someone thats just as good as go back and fourth but use mk and get that slight advantage i need. (most of the time).

Ive always been for the banned even as an mk user because i simply know how good the character is with little practice, and Ive seen how broken he is with a lot of practice.

Im more in favor of what the attendance wants as long as its reasonable and i feel mk bann is reasonable. I would bann him at this but I posted the tournament before the MK ban was official. I am going to change some of the rules today including some of the stages. I'll post once its complete.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

I'd love to play with no timer. I really don't like timing people out.

Although it just occurred to me that other fighting games time people out too.

I still don't like the idea though.

 

[Foy]

hey guys wheres snowman

Playing street fighter and dabbling with melee i think. He is still a beast.

 

[da K.I.D.]

still?

snowman was never a beast at melee.

But He's legitimately really really good at street fighter 4 now.

 

[Foy]

I meant he was a beast in general.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oh ok, fair point then.

 

[VibeSlyph]

Cura don't forget to make infinites legal.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i agree fully with vibe.

 

[Gaia_x]

op updated

facebook event page
fliers
sig

thanks

-eeveee