Australian Meta Knight Legality

[Grim Tuesday]

Sort-of worth noting: DoMo will definitely quit if MK is banned in Australia.

 

[luke_atyeo]

What is funny is when America does something over here everyone follows along straight away.

actually I believe we were the first place to have any kind of metaknight ban, and shaya himself was, unless I am mistaken, very influencial in the decision to ban mk in america

became known as "metabourne"

I claim credit for that call

Sort-of worth noting: DoMo will definitely quit if MK is banned in Australia.

who the **** is domo, thats not worth noting

 

[Splice]

I think we should have banned Luke because his instigation of East Coast Abuse (tm) against SA and WA totally killed more people's competitive drive than MK did.

In fact, his coining of the term Metabourne likely caused false insecurity and deterred people from trying as hard by over-exaggerating the issue.

Obvs.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It amazes me whenever Luke says anything because ACT is so insignificant that I forget it even exists.

 

[Shaya]

I suppose melbourne players constantly *****ing about meta knight in all of their melbourne thread posts were luke over exaggerating the issue?

And no splice, I was saying something a tad bit different.
While I wouldn't claim that Sydney's scene is large or strong now, but at the time at which Melbourne's scene originally dwindled during this whole "metabourne phase" was coincidentally when Sydney's scene and tournaments were growing in number/size. :o We dreaded people playing MK, even though multiple of us dipped our feat with him - let's not get started on Sydney doubles metagame for the past 2-3 years.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pretty sure it was a joke Shaya, lol.

 

[Splice]

There are/were Melbourne players with poor attitudes who ***** about those things, and who is to say it isn't because others do, whether it be Luke or some-one else. Thats a somewhat serious response to your serious respones, but it was still a joke originally.

You're right. It was coincidentally around the same time.

 

[...Ellipsis...]

JP are you actually going to elaborate on why you think banning MK will help the scene or just continue to make vague comments?

 

[Remastered]

The Queensland scene has discussed the ban on MK, and we have decided to leave him in until forced to do otherwise.

We are bringing back the dual MK ban in doubles, and may discuss a soft ban in the future if necessary. But for now, MK stays in QLD after a majority vote by everyone in the scene . Our scene is thriving, and would prefer not to alter anything if we don't have too.

We don't play by America's silly rules anyway

 

[Shaya]

Whydoidothiscoincidencethingjesuschrist

Why it will help the scene?
I can free up stage lists and other rules purely because of meta knight no longer being there. Minimal amounts of people used him in tournament in Sydney, but that didn't stop several people from bringing him out at various instances (myself, scoot, ricky, zxv - wait that's all of sydney's best players minus TED). This group of people would likely play more meta knight if they fully abused what a more diverse stage list would have brought them.
There were some, like yourself, who played Meta Knight in tournament at your peak, but even you yourself stopped playing him.

On the other side of things, while I still feel Meta Knight's already made his mark here, Australian (in most areas) is in the unique situation (compared to the US) that banning Meta Knight at this point will not be extremely drastic like it will be in the States, and that's a good thing.

 

[Remastered]

We like our stage list as it is up here. We don't care for your silly double counterpicks. ACL ran fine with a conservative ruleset, bar the inclusion of brinstar over rainbow.

 

[Attila_]

I can free up stage lists and other rules purely because of meta knight no longer being there. Minimal amounts of people used him in tournament in Sydney, but that didn't stop several people from bringing him out at various instances (myself, scoot, ricky, zxv - wait that's all of sydney's best players minus TED).

ted brought him out against earl at tpoo. and took a game lol

 

[Shaya]

Lol.

No one ever told me

 

[Scrubs]

You can't compare the any 64 or Melee character to Metaknight, it just isn't the same. The punishment system isn't the same in brawl. Yes Fox is **** and Pikachu(in 64) probably even more so but when playing as these characters if you make a mistake you will be punished HARD.

Meta just doesn't have the weaknesses the best characters in 64/melee do. You cant edge guard him, IF the MK player makes a mistake you get maybe 10/15 %, so you have to constantly make hard reads on a character that has stupidly safe offensive options.

I will probably go to the next Luigi's Dungeon if MK is banned.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Scrubs, come to SA so I can learn the Peach match-up!

 

[Splice]

If MK makes a mistake he can be punished hard in the sense that he is super light and because of the way you die earlier out of B moves, a poorly executed Tornado (which most tornadoes are) can actually quite easily lead to MK dying at 60-70% to a disjoint Fsmash or strong aerial that curves around the hitbox. Also its worth noting that you can get a worthwhile amount of % on MK with one read or intrusion to his spacing, but it's also worth noting that that is character dependant of course.

Diddy Kong avoids punishment for mistakes much more noticeably than MK with the exclusion of gimps but Diddy doesn't really go off stage in the first place, and so that type of punishment can be avoided if you play defensively or just choose a smart route of recovery when it happens.

@Shaya: Brinstar should be banned regardless of MK, the stage is bat**** ********. PS2 isn't a stage that is banned due to MK, and as for Rainbow Ride, even though it's a definite ban for some characters I'm pretty sure that some characters dont totally fear MK there, and the characters that would choose it as a definite ban against MK would probably choose it as a definite ban against some other characters such as my own, or Wario, anyway. Do you really think banning MK would allow us to open up that many more stages? Brinstar, RR, and Norfair are the only ones i recall being banned specifically due to MK. And Brinstar and Norfair should be banned anyway. Unless Toshiba decides he wants to CP me there whatever bro. I'm down with that.

 

[Ghostbone]

If MK makes a mistake he can be punished hard in the sense that he is super light and because of the way you die earlier out of B moves, a poorly executed Tornado (which most tornadoes are) can actually quite easily lead to MK dying at 60-70% to a disjoint Fsmash or strong aerial that curves around the hitbox. Also its worth noting that you can get a worthwhile amount of % on MK with one read or intrusion to his spacing, but it's also worth noting that that is character dependant of course.

1. MK has an amazing momentum cancel to kinda make up for his light weight.
2. You don't get extra knockback out of a B move as far as I know.

 

[Shaya]

Likely people will prefer less stages, but that opportunity hasn't really been given to them.

How about this:
I know Meta Knight's broken. No matter how he currently impacts on the scene to the point of it almost being a seem less transition if he was banned (bar... some in SA, Earl, Toshi and Adept). As someone who constantly interacts with the American metagame due to the BBR/stuff, I understand people's thoughts on MK, I know how he does what he does and the effects that they cause. You could argue that's never happened here or it has in some way - in the US most people just mained MK, to the point of something like up to 1/3rd of players used MK in tournaments over there (I could be exaggerating the number, I don't exactly recall - however he does take close to 40% of money at tournaments over there). When its something like 1/20 in Sydney (if at all 'one'), 2/20 in Melbourne [and when talking about money makers its 0/3 in sydney and sometimes 1/3 in melbourne, and I have no idea how SA's results go, QLD is 1/3 ? probably], etc the effects he has once he (would naturally, if we had people willing to main him) reaches those levels, most people's opinions would likely be swayed as well.

If I'm fully aware of all of these things that gave me the opinion Meta Knight is broken, then why wouldn't I want his removal here because not enough people are playing to win?

 

[luke_atyeo]

I think we should have banned Luke because his instigation of East Coast Abuse (tm) against SA and WA totally killed more people's competitive drive than MK did.

In fact, his coining of the term Metabourne likely caused false insecurity and deterred people from trying as hard by over-exaggerating the issue.

Obvs.

lolololol pretty much.

also lol, I never had a bad attitude about metaknight, I liked fighting him because it was the only matchup I bothered to learn properly and back in my day I destroyed metaknights left right and center (or maybe that was thanks to the power of my East Coast Abuse?)

 

[Shaya]

I think it was due to 3 weeks of playing nothing but meta knights, Luke.

 

[Splice]

I play(ed) to win but that didnt involve me using the best character in the game MU wise.

If your enjoyment lies within another character or you are already ahead with another character, that may actually make that character the optimal choice for winning because natural understanding and enjoyment make learning easier.

Shaya you pointed out the people who would be hindered by the MK ban (somewhat) but who would actually rejoin the scene with total enthusiasm if we banned MK. I don't know anyone within METAbourne that quit because of MK, I know people who quit because they lost though. Or, notably, just didnt care any more anyway.

Banning MK on an "If" factor (a factor which i think is unlikely too) seems quite poor.

@Luke: I didn't mean to imply your attitude was bad, in fact I recognized you calling Melbourne "metabourne" was mostly trash talk, which i think is healthy. Some peoples reactions to the situation in general may have been what I consider bad attitudes though...

 

[luke_atyeo]

metabourne isnt as cool as banberra though, where having fun is banned


also 3 weeks of that **** shaya, AND havok and halls amazing training


also I know you didnt splice, I wasnt refering to you

 

[...Ellipsis...]

lolololol pretty much.

also lol, I never had a bad attitude about metaknight, I liked fighting him because it was the only matchup I bothered to learn properly and back in my day I destroyed metaknights left right and center (or maybe that was thanks to the power of my East Coast Abuse?)

I don't seem to remember losing to you with MK, although I could be wrong.

 

[Attila_]

If MK makes a mistake he can be punished hard in the sense that he is super light and because of the way you die earlier out of B moves, a poorly executed Tornado (which most tornadoes are) can actually quite easily lead to MK dying at 60-70% to a disjoint Fsmash or strong aerial that curves around the hitbox. Also its worth noting that you can get a worthwhile amount of % on MK with one read or intrusion to his spacing, but it's also worth noting that that is character dependant of course.

Diddy Kong avoids punishment for mistakes much more noticeably than MK with the exclusion of gimps but Diddy doesn't really go off stage in the first place, and so that type of punishment can be avoided if you play defensively or just choose a smart route of recovery when it happens.

@Shaya: Brinstar should be banned regardless of MK, the stage is bat**** ********. PS2 isn't a stage that is banned due to MK, and as for Rainbow Ride, even though it's a definite ban for some characters I'm pretty sure that some characters dont totally fear MK there, and the characters that would choose it as a definite ban against MK would probably choose it as a definite ban against some other characters such as my own, or Wario, anyway. Do you really think banning MK would allow us to open up that many more stages? Brinstar, RR, and Norfair are the only ones i recall being banned specifically due to MK. And Brinstar and Norfair should be banned anyway. Unless Toshiba decides he wants to CP me there whatever bro. I'm down with that.

most characters can't punish mk hard at all.

consider:

1. mk makes a mistake. i hit with a grenade. 12%
2. snake makes a mistake. dthrow on the ledge. 120%

a little different. note that also diddy kong can be juggled (if i can do this as snake, every character can do it), while mk is only pressured in the air by... gw? marth? this leads to significantly smaller punishes against mk than other characters.

also not that mk getting hit offstage doesn't mean anything, while most characters have a reasonable time getting from the ledge back the stage. they will often take damage or get hit off again; mk doesn't have this trouble.

most characters cannot kill early out of a stupid tornado either (even snake's utilt, which will never sweetspot a nado), in fact, the spamming of the said move shuts down most characters entirely.

consider also that most characters do not have reliable setups to ko mk, even after forcing a mistake, but mk can kill out a juggle or offstage very easily.

ps2 is only ******** because of mk. treadmills forcing you to approach him or battle him on the ledge. great. with mk gone, i (at this point) welcome the return of this stage.

1. MK has an amazing momentum cancel to kinda make up for his light weight.
2. You don't get extra knockback out of a B move as far as I know.

as far as i know, its 1.5x knockback out of b moves. this is why snake gets killed by mk sl out of cypher very early, but will live considerably offstage if mk uses it before snake attempts a recovery.

 

[xXArrowXx]

lets ban ice climbers and ddd while we are at it.

 

[Silfa]

It amazes me whenever Luke says anything because ACT is so insignificant that I forget it even exists.

you are so rude. please don't do that. I don't care whether you are trolling, but try to use your brain and be slightly considerate when you attempt to generalise okay?

metaknight is dumb.

 

[Remastered]

consider:

1. mk makes a mistake. i hit with a grenade. 12%
2. snake makes a mistake. dthrow on the ledge. 120%

You put something similar to this in a USA thread, and they ripped on you really hard because it's not true at all.

If I really had to, I can find the thread again, but no Snake who is decent at the game takes 120% from a dthrow near the ledge.

Also, you could quite easily make the argument that if you don't make the mistake, you won't be punished

 

[Attila_]

first video i watched today just happens to be full of perfect examples lolol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrS7ODPNmQ4#t=04m25s

 

[Remastered]

Didn't say it has never happened, and it really shouldn't at top level play. All I said was that you got laughed out of your town because of a horrible generalisation about Snake v MK.

 

[Attila_]

most people are terrible anyway, work by theorycraft, and never place in tournaments.

these are normally the people who criticize me.

i've got a video from two days ago between some of the best players in the US, showing exactly what i'm talking about. and not just once either, but multiple times.

believe it or not, but what i'm talking about actually happens at (really) high level play.

 

[Scrubs]

I agree w/ Atilla...

No matter how high a level you reach, you can't change the angle at which down throw sends you. You can't change how snake's recovery works (you still have to cypher towards the stage helpless).

Metaknight can cover pretty much all of snake's options when he is below the stage, which really is only two...

Cypher
Sticky

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with Attila as well, top Snakes still get punished super duper hard by MK.

you are so rude. please don't do that. I don't care whether you are trolling, but try to use your brain and be slightly considerate when you attempt to generalise okay?

I was trolling, in response to Luke's trolling. We cool? I'm sure ACT is good at Smash and no hard feelings were meant.

 

[Remastered]

most people are terrible anyway, work by theorycraft, and never place in tournaments.

It's a good thing I only factcraft then

I agree w/ Atilla...

No matter how high a level you reach, you can't change the angle at which down throw sends you. You can't change how snake's recovery works (you still have to cypher towards the stage helpless).

Metaknight can cover pretty much all of snake's options when he is below the stage, which really is only two...

Cypher
Sticky

You can change the direction dthrow sends you

Also, what is Snake doing below the stage anyway?

I agree with Attila as well, top Snakes still get punished super duper hard by MK.

This is because the MU has been learnt over time, however, the Snake v MK MU is not as 'Grim' as you all make it out to be. (Did you see what I did there? I hope you appreciate this humour)

 

[Scrubs]

You can change the direction dthrow sends you

I mean once you have DI'd it... We are assuming a high level of play I wasn't suggesting that you can't DI downthrow

There is a range of angles it will send you (depending on DI) and you can't change this...

It isn't as though you can DI so it will pop you up harmlessly above metaknight...

Even w/ good DI it sends you below the stage

 

[Ghostbone]

It isn't as though you can DI so it will pop you up harmlessly above metaknight...

Even w/ good DI it sends you below the stage

You can DI d-throw straight up.....

 

[J-Birds]

I think thats moreso that Snake gets punished harder then most characters in general due to being combo's and edge guarded so easily.

However the thing that makes MK so broke is that he can SAFELY FORCE these situations unlike the majoirty of the cast.

Regardless of dthrow di mk can follow up, tech utilt is cute though C:
oh yeah cause being above mk is so safe guys...

 

[Remastered]

Are we still talking about MK's dthrow here? It definitely doesn't send you below the stage unless you push down on the sticks and DI like a noob.

Edit: I can agree with that J-birds.

 

[Ghostbone]

Regardless of dthrow di mk can follow up, tech utilt is cute though C:
oh yeah cause being above mk is so safe guys...

Oh yea being above MK is still a bad situation.

But Scrubs was claiming it always sends you below the stage, when it really doesn't.

Anyway what makes so good is he needs to take very little risk to get a high reward, his risk/reward ratio is heavily skewed.
It's kind of like, you're playing RPS against Meta Knight. Every time you win, you have to win again for it to count, but Meta Knight only has to win once for it to count.
You can outplay him, but he'll always have the advantage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is because the MU has been learnt over time, however, the Snake v MK MU is not as 'Grim' as you all make it out to be. (Did you see what I did there? I hope you appreciate this humour)

Not enough people make jokes about my name, thankyou (not sarcasm).

The match-up is still only like... -1... Cause MK has such a hard time getting in and actually gets punished decently hard compared to a lot of other match-ups, but Snake still gets ***** if he ****s up :/

 

[Attila_]

pretty sure you're fighting a losing battle here, adept.

You can change the direction dthrow sends you

Also, what is Snake doing below the stage anyway?

di up, he can kill you with sl. di back and he can chase with dtilt/dair. its a guessing game where snake can seriously lose a stock at almost any percent (really high percents are safe, but he's stuck above mk anyway).

and dthrow was an example, since mk's dash grab slides so much, it pushes snake offstage really easily.

but mk has plenty of options to punish snake really hard.

and you know this.

so stop denying it.

please.