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Australian Meta Knight Legality
- Thread starter Shaya
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In response to your post Shaya
Question 1
A. - QLD had an MK that won exclusively, Apollo and Nova were always the top in SA, Afro and Gary started playing MK in late 2009 and neither of them ever won exclusively, Tibs and Attila were always ahead of them, and a lot of tournaments from 2010 to now had more Diddys in the top 5 or 7 then MKs. NSW best players have been Shaya, Scoot, Tedeth and ZXV, and only Scott out of them has ever use MK for a substantial amount. (this is since 2009 at least, i did not play in 2008 and 2008 really doesnt matter, I think a ROB came 2nd in Rambo? Kulla did win though with MK, i like when he glide under FD and everyone calls hacks...)
QUESTION 2
A - What stages are removed because of MK? I think I've been through this but those stages should be banned anyway except Rainbow Ride, and a lot of characters can take MK on Rainbow Ride. If we banned MK, what more stages would really add? You'd add Rainbow Ride, and **** stages that should be banned MK or not.
Ledge Grab Limit? Now it is a bad rule because having a LGL sucks for everyone. No-one likes counting. But I plank harder than Earl and so does Jei when he focuses. It's an option MK has but it isn't abused much and it isn't abused well. And when it's abused it's normally against Tedeth who has spent the whole game trying to make everything take as long as possible anyway and now he doesn't have the % lead so for the last 50 seconds it's the MK who decides to plank.
B - Bad attitude affects the scene in a negative way worse than MK.
C - I have already said that you don't have to play the best character to play to the win, and more comes into it than how good the character is in with the game, due to things that impact on learning such as how much you enjoy the character among other things I ceebs going over again. We don't have an honour system so much as everyone is a whiny little *****.
Shaya, in you last post where you "@Splice" - I agreed with that in my last post and went over what was relevant anyway. Do you misunderstand?
In your new last post which was posted since after i started typing;
Who would scrubs use in Brawl? Peach? If he doesn't want to play coz of MK, ban MK and you can **** him just as hard with Snake. If he wants to use some other viable high tier, he'll still have MUs that counter him even with MK banned. So if he were to play Brawl with or without MK banned but refuses to use MK, then the situation would really be no worse for him competitvely.
Bad competitive attitude (and lack of commitment) is the reason the scene has dwindled, MK is just a medium for people to cast their negative attitude towards.
Question 1
A. - QLD had an MK that won exclusively, Apollo and Nova were always the top in SA, Afro and Gary started playing MK in late 2009 and neither of them ever won exclusively, Tibs and Attila were always ahead of them, and a lot of tournaments from 2010 to now had more Diddys in the top 5 or 7 then MKs. NSW best players have been Shaya, Scoot, Tedeth and ZXV, and only Scott out of them has ever use MK for a substantial amount. (this is since 2009 at least, i did not play in 2008 and 2008 really doesnt matter, I think a ROB came 2nd in Rambo? Kulla did win though with MK, i like when he glide under FD and everyone calls hacks...)
QUESTION 2
A - What stages are removed because of MK? I think I've been through this but those stages should be banned anyway except Rainbow Ride, and a lot of characters can take MK on Rainbow Ride. If we banned MK, what more stages would really add? You'd add Rainbow Ride, and **** stages that should be banned MK or not.
Ledge Grab Limit? Now it is a bad rule because having a LGL sucks for everyone. No-one likes counting. But I plank harder than Earl and so does Jei when he focuses. It's an option MK has but it isn't abused much and it isn't abused well. And when it's abused it's normally against Tedeth who has spent the whole game trying to make everything take as long as possible anyway and now he doesn't have the % lead so for the last 50 seconds it's the MK who decides to plank.
B - Bad attitude affects the scene in a negative way worse than MK.
C - I have already said that you don't have to play the best character to play to the win, and more comes into it than how good the character is in with the game, due to things that impact on learning such as how much you enjoy the character among other things I ceebs going over again. We don't have an honour system so much as everyone is a whiny little *****.
Shaya, in you last post where you "@Splice" - I agreed with that in my last post and went over what was relevant anyway. Do you misunderstand?
In your new last post which was posted since after i started typing;
Who would scrubs use in Brawl? Peach? If he doesn't want to play coz of MK, ban MK and you can **** him just as hard with Snake. If he wants to use some other viable high tier, he'll still have MUs that counter him even with MK banned. So if he were to play Brawl with or without MK banned but refuses to use MK, then the situation would really be no worse for him competitvely.
Bad competitive attitude (and lack of commitment) is the reason the scene has dwindled, MK is just a medium for people to cast their negative attitude towards.
Jei Jei
Smash Champion
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My friend Erick came 2nd in Rambo, he used Falco...ROB wth?
I disagree Splice.
And we'll never not disagree on the issue.
I dislike the circular argument.
I've been here since 2008.
Every major prior to attila/tibs/myself in 09/10 showing up was MK won or top 8 dominated.
Ted/Earl/Scoot started making significant marks late 09 and early 10.
And we'll never not disagree on the issue.
I dislike the circular argument.
I've been here since 2008.
Every major prior to attila/tibs/myself in 09/10 showing up was MK won or top 8 dominated.
Ted/Earl/Scoot started making significant marks late 09 and early 10.
swordsaint
Smash Master
ftr
i never reaaally used mk a large amount
only when i cbf anymore or want quick wins against easier players (or at a time I tried countering shaya)
i never reaaally used mk a large amount
only when i cbf anymore or want quick wins against easier players (or at a time I tried countering shaya)
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
anyone can play mk.
u just wanna ban him cause u dont wanna play him.
no items, fd only, mk only
u just wanna ban him cause u dont wanna play him.
no items, fd only, mk only
CAO's got the right attitude. And I didn't want this topic to devolve into "Should we ban MK".
I know I made this a loaded topic (as in, this thread's purpose was more like 'okay guys, time to just remove mk'). But I do so because I feel it's the right thing to do.
I don't have any major complaints from Sydney players about banning MK. Most are just like "well he isn't a problem here, why?'.
Adelaide seems to be a-okay with it bar Domo (and I'm sure I could likely convince him to stick around, and if not, he already primarily focuses on LoL and doesn't care too much about brawl).
Melbourne has varied opinions, but most seem to be okay with the change. I'm not sure how Toshi/Earl feel. But both have played other characters in the past in tournament.
There will always be an argument for/against MK. But removing him seems to something a lot of players actually want.
and in terms of convenience now is a good time to remove him (we had our last major, america is banning him, we don't have too many MK users that this will negatively impact).
I know I made this a loaded topic (as in, this thread's purpose was more like 'okay guys, time to just remove mk'). But I do so because I feel it's the right thing to do.
I don't have any major complaints from Sydney players about banning MK. Most are just like "well he isn't a problem here, why?'.
Adelaide seems to be a-okay with it bar Domo (and I'm sure I could likely convince him to stick around, and if not, he already primarily focuses on LoL and doesn't care too much about brawl).
Melbourne has varied opinions, but most seem to be okay with the change. I'm not sure how Toshi/Earl feel. But both have played other characters in the past in tournament.
There will always be an argument for/against MK. But removing him seems to something a lot of players actually want.
and in terms of convenience now is a good time to remove him (we had our last major, america is banning him, we don't have too many MK users that this will negatively impact).
Eric used Rob and Falco if you watch the vids Jei 
EIther that or Kulla used ROB... but im pretty sure it was eric.
Also i already said 2008 isn't really worth anything and our scene grew mostly in 2009 so nothing that happened in 2008 is what caused any later damage yo. It's irrelevant.
I don't think the argument is circular Shaya. I think I've said more of what I want to say through my posts and covered a bit of new stuff each time. You have repeated yourself a lot though Shaya because you don't really have much to say. You went through false hypothesis, false assumption, use of statistics as logic, and talked about stages and LGL a bit which was reasonable. You also talk of peoples bad attitudes to MK but thats peoples bad attitudes fault, not MKs. The commuity doesn't have the right mindset from the word go, and your talk of playing to win and character choice honour system doesn't mean much when it's something that would damage our scene more if we got rid of it by banning MK so everyone felt comfortable using Snake or Diddy (even though I don't really think it exists. I'll be honest that entire opinion of yours with that optimal character selection just doesn't make a lot of sense to me why you consider it a legit point of reasoning anyway, it's quite a redundant point in all cases)
That was a bit circular, because the point of that paragraph was to repeat stuff.
I have little doubt that you guys will ban MK, I just think that you are all stupid and lazy.
EIther that or Kulla used ROB... but im pretty sure it was eric.
Also i already said 2008 isn't really worth anything and our scene grew mostly in 2009 so nothing that happened in 2008 is what caused any later damage yo. It's irrelevant.
I don't think the argument is circular Shaya. I think I've said more of what I want to say through my posts and covered a bit of new stuff each time. You have repeated yourself a lot though Shaya because you don't really have much to say. You went through false hypothesis, false assumption, use of statistics as logic, and talked about stages and LGL a bit which was reasonable. You also talk of peoples bad attitudes to MK but thats peoples bad attitudes fault, not MKs. The commuity doesn't have the right mindset from the word go, and your talk of playing to win and character choice honour system doesn't mean much when it's something that would damage our scene more if we got rid of it by banning MK so everyone felt comfortable using Snake or Diddy (even though I don't really think it exists. I'll be honest that entire opinion of yours with that optimal character selection just doesn't make a lot of sense to me why you consider it a legit point of reasoning anyway, it's quite a redundant point in all cases)
That was a bit circular, because the point of that paragraph was to repeat stuff.
I have little doubt that you guys will ban MK, I just think that you are all stupid and lazy.
You discrediting what I say is because you don't have definitive means of defeating it.
"bad attitude over mk being a problem" is an opinion that not many people share.
You've honestly said nothing that is new to me, at all. You are not unique in your opinion nor your arguments.
And I've read thousands of posts on this thing. I honestly don't want to read many more.
"bad attitude over mk being a problem" is an opinion that not many people share.
You've honestly said nothing that is new to me, at all. You are not unique in your opinion nor your arguments.
And I've read thousands of posts on this thing. I honestly don't want to read many more.
Remastered
Smash Lord
It's funny that you brought up the matter of Zelda v MK Shaya, because I got anyone I could who plays MK well at ACL to play Zelda and everyone struggled. Now I have to ask is whether you have actually played the MU yourself.
This is beside the point. The fact that someone needs to have performed well to have a validated opinion is complete trash Shaya. Your elitism is completely unnecessary as it doesn't add weight to your argument.
You then proceed to explain that you have been here since 2008, so that one whole year you have on me makes my opinion redundant does it? Thanks for congratulating me on 3 years though, that was really nice.
I want to play you again Shaya, might need to see whether my lack of understanding beats you next time.
This is beside the point. The fact that someone needs to have performed well to have a validated opinion is complete trash Shaya. Your elitism is completely unnecessary as it doesn't add weight to your argument.
You then proceed to explain that you have been here since 2008, so that one whole year you have on me makes my opinion redundant does it? Thanks for congratulating me on 3 years though, that was really nice
.I want to play you again Shaya, might need to see whether my lack of understanding beats you next time.
Shaya, I feel i already have defeated it. If you choose to continue to hold onto what you believe then I wouldn't think that you do feel defeated, and I didn't think I would sway you.
But listening to your points and hearing what you have to say in response to what I bring to you has just reassured me that you actually don't have anything substantial to go on, as I first assumed (but of course I particpated in this thread because it's bad to just go off assumptions, that is a bad habit. So I had to see for sure.)
What is the point of you saying that my opinion is one that not many share btw?
Also I don't really mind whether you have already experienced what I had said. I'm sure I may have points that others have presented to you before Shaya, but in this thread I have tried to expand anything I've repeated in each post to avoid being circular in this thread, which is what I was replying to.
But listening to your points and hearing what you have to say in response to what I bring to you has just reassured me that you actually don't have anything substantial to go on, as I first assumed (but of course I particpated in this thread because it's bad to just go off assumptions, that is a bad habit. So I had to see for sure.)
What is the point of you saying that my opinion is one that not many share btw?
Also I don't really mind whether you have already experienced what I had said. I'm sure I may have points that others have presented to you before Shaya, but in this thread I have tried to expand anything I've repeated in each post to avoid being circular in this thread, which is what I was replying to.
Scrubs
Smash Lord
This is correct...
For me
MK is a boring character to play
MK is a boring character to play against
Knowing that I play brawl competitively I am either going to spend a lot of my time playing against MK's or alternatively playing against MK myself turns me off the game..
Additionally the character I play at the moment (TL) is pretty good on some rare stages (Brinstar, RC etc..) knowing that I will probably never be able to CP those confidently because people will bust out MK
I think that the rules in place to make MK playable (LGL, VERY conservative stages) are quite detrimental to the game...
Additionally I think MK restricts the characters people choose when deciding who they will main. A lot of people take into account MK when making this decision. This has resulted in an endless stream of Snakes, Diddy's, IC's, Marth's
Increasing character diversity would make the game more fun...
All you've said is that MK isn't bad, it's the players fault.
Ad hominems all day thereafter. And the ratio of non-circular arguments to circular arguments to ad hominems is going to go something like 0.00001:75:24.9 where the amount of 0s beyond the decimal place gets larger, and as the ratio of circular arguments decrease to be replaced by 'lol you bad'.
Good thing you got people who main MK to play a match up they don't have any experience in all in.
On the other hand people who actually use Zelda in tournament would laugh at you saying its 60:40.
Yet again, why would you performing not-well mean your opinion is nothing?
You give an opinion on something that conflicts with someone who is close to objectively better than you or more knowledgeable than you (and I'm not talking about myself at all here).
You have never experienced MK being a problem, hence you deny him being a problem at all.
Ad hominems all day thereafter. And the ratio of non-circular arguments to circular arguments to ad hominems is going to go something like 0.00001:75:24.9 where the amount of 0s beyond the decimal place gets larger, and as the ratio of circular arguments decrease to be replaced by 'lol you bad'.
Good thing you got people who main MK to play a match up they don't have any experience in all in.
On the other hand people who actually use Zelda in tournament would laugh at you saying its 60:40.
Yet again, why would you performing not-well mean your opinion is nothing?
You give an opinion on something that conflicts with someone who is close to objectively better than you or more knowledgeable than you (and I'm not talking about myself at all here).
You have never experienced MK being a problem, hence you deny him being a problem at all.
Scrubs, Brinstar probably still shouldnt be legal if MK is banned.
People can still plank the **** out of you with GaW with MK banned and the LGL abolished. DK and Pit will too.
You still won't be able to play on those stages against more characters than MK because they benefit a lot of aerial characters better than you. in QLD im pretty sure you only have 1 or 2 MKs, and only one of them is good.
And as far as I'm aware MK isn't your worst MU so I don't see how it really hinders you from playing as TL who you want to main. In my opinion Olimar ***** you pretty hard and you have an Olimar as your best player. The pikmin blow up your bombs and he can throw them faster than you can pull out bombs, forces you to telegraph and beats you up close. No good.
So I don't think you should let MK hinder you from playing competitively, whether QLD choose to ban MK or not I think you should get involved in the scene if you enjoy the game, Scrubs.
People can still plank the **** out of you with GaW with MK banned and the LGL abolished. DK and Pit will too.
You still won't be able to play on those stages against more characters than MK because they benefit a lot of aerial characters better than you. in QLD im pretty sure you only have 1 or 2 MKs, and only one of them is good.
And as far as I'm aware MK isn't your worst MU so I don't see how it really hinders you from playing as TL who you want to main. In my opinion Olimar ***** you pretty hard and you have an Olimar as your best player. The pikmin blow up your bombs and he can throw them faster than you can pull out bombs, forces you to telegraph and beats you up close. No good.
So I don't think you should let MK hinder you from playing competitively, whether QLD choose to ban MK or not I think you should get involved in the scene if you enjoy the game, Scrubs.
Remastered
Smash Lord
Yep, I remember heaps of people saying this, heaps like... ummm.....wait?????
I believe the thread I created explained that I disagreed with 80:20. Not sure, might have to click into the woxy thread to check, but I couldn't be bothered tbh, given that it's irrelevant to this argument and you have brought it up completely out of context to back-up up a wavering argument about an unrelated topic to attempt to make me look like a fool. It may have worked if we were all ignorant though.
@ Splice: We have already decided amongst the QLD brawl community not to ban him yet.
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
I've always been half hearted in getting into the competitive Brawl scene, but if MK is banned, I'm definitly going to make an effort.
If bi-weeklys like back in the old days came back (a quick tram ride from the CBD I recall) I'd attend 100%.
If bi-weeklys like back in the old days came back (a quick tram ride from the CBD I recall) I'd attend 100%.
escro
Smash Ace
i think this is a very good arguement.
and if what you guys say about the mk mains moving towards an EQUAL division into marths, diddys, snakes etc (or maybe even lower tier chars) then im def all for the ban.
Anyway, we've had the final pot shots.
The old 'argue against me at a level of X means I must argue against you at a level of X+1 or X*2' fallacy is not something that I should be endorsing... Wait, I don't endorse it.
Person 1: Here's my reasons, you're wrong and I've won
Person 2: here's my reasons, you're wrong and I've won
Person 3: ....
If facts (statistics) can't be used within logic than there is nothing but personal opinion and bias that can be displayed here. And I've heard it all before, hundreds, if not thousands of times.
Everything I've said has been said by others multiple times.
Everything anyone else has said has been said by others multiple times.
And the ever increasing aggressiveness as the topic goes on is nothing new either.
You either think MK should be banned, or you think he should be legal.
Your reasons for either shouldn't matter.
MK being banned seems that it will likely happen.
You can be happy for the breath of fresh air,
or you can call everyone else scrubs.
Or you can be monstrously happy that the best character in the game is gone and something something something (do these people actually exist? or is it just a stereotype created by anti-ban?)
ALAS. This thread has served its purpose.
Rage
all
over
the
place.
The old 'argue against me at a level of X means I must argue against you at a level of X+1 or X*2' fallacy is not something that I should be endorsing... Wait, I don't endorse it.
Person 1: Here's my reasons, you're wrong and I've won
Person 2: here's my reasons, you're wrong and I've won
Person 3: ....
If facts (statistics) can't be used within logic than there is nothing but personal opinion and bias that can be displayed here. And I've heard it all before, hundreds, if not thousands of times.
Everything I've said has been said by others multiple times.
Everything anyone else has said has been said by others multiple times.
And the ever increasing aggressiveness as the topic goes on is nothing new either.
You either think MK should be banned, or you think he should be legal.
Your reasons for either shouldn't matter.
MK being banned seems that it will likely happen.
You can be happy for the breath of fresh air,
or you can call everyone else scrubs.
Or you can be monstrously happy that the best character in the game is gone and something something something (do these people actually exist? or is it just a stereotype created by anti-ban?)
ALAS. This thread has served its purpose.
Rage
all
over
the
place.
Scrubs
Smash Lord
It isn't that I don't do well up here with TL its more the restrictions MK has introduced into the game that are preventing me from playing...
I don't enjoy the game, it's pretty ****ing boring...especially playing against Snake/Marth/Falco (who are probably the most popular characters in the AU metagame because they do well against MK)
But if people played more interesting characters / more stages were allowed, I would probably enjoy it enough to start taking part...
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