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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
Someone please teach me this character. PLEASE!?!?! I started playing him last Friday and I wanna know so much. And I can't quite get the parrying time down, but I want to learn. Any pointers?
For starters, try not to go overboard with learning all the tricks immediately (Parrying, rapid edge-cancelled eggs, Double jump cancel counter, etc.). While these things are good they require time to implement not only the timing but recognizing appropriate instances to utilize them.

Take the time to greatly familiarize yourself with yoshi. This relates to all characters really. Movement is rather important and knowing the limits of your character allows you to know what options are available at any given time.

If you can play against someone else, and, initially, get a feel for positioning and moving around while "under pressure" from an opponent. Being able to confidently move into and out of and position swiftly is pretty dang important. Understand specifics such as your general wavedash length, effective attack range (for all attacks), and jumping and aerial movement speed. Knowing these things will allow you to judge the correct spacing from an opponent to be considered safe for you, but dangerous for your opponent.

It can be easy for a yoshi player to be overwhelmed by an opponent since yoshi cannot jump out of shield, has issues with attack range, and some large lag time after some attacks. Take note when these disadvantageous situations occur and avoid them (getting stuck in shield being a major issue for new players).

Also, Understand how Yoshi's double jump (DJ) works as a recovery tool. When recovering against opponents, figure out the effective Damage limit that your double jump can absorb for all enemy attacks (it tends to vary a bit for stronger to weaker attacks). Use DJ at an appropriate height when returning to the stage so that both the option of land on the stage or grabbing the edge remain available. With that understand both
1. the Height of the DJ so that you can consistently "sweetspot" or grab the edge at the peak of the DJ, and
2. That the Dj can be cancelled at any point (preferably with Down-B or Up-B). Cancelling it with an attack will diminish upwards movement and allow grabbing of the edge when the full DJ will result in going too high.

End Note: Some of these specifics may be influenced by my opinions and there will probably be some second opinions/insights from other players.
As a rule of thumb, look through the yoshi guide thread here -->http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=53132 for general tactics, apply them and ask a lot of questions.
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
so...i have a question.

does dbljwd have any real use other than like turning around while wd'ing or using dblj's superarmor while wd'ing?
No, at least for now, i can't think of any uses other than the ones you stated.
Perhaps if some opponents like to act upon seeing yoshi use his double jump, then DJ wavedash/land could also be a fake out maneuver. Even then, it would not be much.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
4,917
This character is so hard, you guys. But a ridiculously high learning curve is why I got into Melee in the first place :D
Yoshi is probably the hardest character to even get moderately good with, due to how technical and flawless Yoshi needs to be played just to be barely viable.

I still hold strong to my opinion that a superb Parrying Yoshi is mid-tier.
 

PGH Carroll

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
4,145
Location
Pittsburgh, PA aka #TipperCity
Lol. Vman doesn't play yoshi anymore.
He got scared when I almost beat him in dittos and switched to Roy;)

But idk. I like to think that my yoshi is really good... But like fox is such a better character... Lol
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
Lol. Vman doesn't play yoshi anymore.
He got scared when I almost beat him in dittos and switched to Roy;)

But idk. I like to think that my yoshi is really good... But like fox is such a better character... Lol
Lol, we had some fun Yoshi dittos my friend. and lol XD...You'll get me next time. :p I just got my internet back too... Haha, don't worry I definetely still play Yoshi AND he's still my main, I just wanted to pull off a Roy as well... You should actually see some of my new videos, I've got some amazing stuff here that I'm sure all will enjoy to see...

On the contrary, my Roy is getting up there too...

Had Axe come visit and play me.. I'm sure he can vouch for me that my Yoshi has indeed evolved...

Just because I don't post often, doesn't mean I don't play Yoshi believe me... Ask anyone that i've played with.. My yoshi is still in tip-top shape...I promise, I'll post some new videos. :)

Again sorry, for my absence, I just got a new home, and will be much more active with this thread... Really glad people are still playing Yoshi and more people wanna play him..

@Bing - Yoshi's combos are sooo sick
@DJNRage - come visit AZ, I'll teach you, anyone else who wants to learn Yoshi, everything that I know.. I promise.. <3
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
First of all, I just wanna say that somehow Vman's Yoshi has gotten even better o.O Wth I didn't even know that was possible lol. He's got some new tricks up his sleve.

Second of all, I'm just gonna leave this here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya_AK0WPvTA

DAT FIRST MATCH!
Thanks for posting the vid axe, those matches were so fun and intense that I still get tensed up just watching them.

And now I'm really curious to see Vman's yoshi :p
 

boomrested

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Messages
215
Vman- your yoshi is freaking amazing. Your matches get so much hype (I just watched that match that axe posted), which is pretty different from my matches, which consist of 5 minutes of bair spacing with puff. Teach me how to train a dinosaur as cute as yours? Please?

:phone:
 

Adict

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
67
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
lol effin angel tearin it up. i dont think i played you when you were home for spring break last week, or i just have a bad memory lol
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
^we definitely played, at your homestead. :p

Thanks guys.
I still have lots to improve on (mainly my consistency, I seem to drop combos too often) so perhaps more vids will be coming up in the next couple of weeks.
 

Adict

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
67
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
oh yeah forgot bout that. your bro has been coming over daily to help me practice, so maybe when i see you on the 31st (if your goin) ill be doin better than normal lol (hopefully)
 

TheLake

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,057
Location
Butler PA
Yellows my favorite

Angel.....the way that your yoshi moves rivals that of the russian porn i watched as a minstrel

thats a turn on by the way

A SEXUAL TURN ON TO WATCH YOUR YOSHI PLAY!

hi yoshi players :D
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
1,316
Location
Corvallis, OR
Yoshi is probably the hardest character to even get moderately good with, due to how technical and flawless Yoshi needs to be played just to be barely viable.

I still hold strong to my opinion that a superb Parrying Yoshi is mid-tier.
Tier does not change based on somebody's skill with that character. Tier predicts how likely a player will place in tournament against players of equal skill. To say he is higher tier when he is played well does not make since. Yoshi is low tier because he does not have as many tools to do well, but theoretically a player could use him to beat anyone in the world, provided he is better enough than everyone else to counter Yoshi's downsides. That neglects the possibility that they could be beaten with a Yoshi due to their closeness to perfect play with charcters more properly equipped.
 

King5280

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
470
Location
Lansing, MI
Tier does not change based on somebody's skill with that character. Tier predicts how likely a player will place in tournament against players of equal skill. To say he is higher tier when he is played well does not make since. Yoshi is low tier because he does not have as many tools to do well, but theoretically a player could use him to beat anyone in the world, provided he is better enough than everyone else to counter Yoshi's downsides. That neglects the possibility that they could be beaten with a Yoshi due to their closeness to perfect play with charcters more properly equipped.
You have to assume top level of play or the MU's change. Fox vs. Kirby isn't as bad for Kirby if neither player have any idea of how to play.
 

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Joined
Dec 21, 2005
Messages
16,256
Location
Northern IL
Like King said, match-ups change depending on the skill level they are played at. Falcon ***** spacies at lower levels, but that doesn't mean he wins the match-up. At lower levels, players arent playing the match-ups correctly thus they don't follow the top level ideals
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
2,261
Location
Sierra Vista AZ
^SK We love you!

On the real, everyone should watch out for Angel, he hasn't been given enough credit for his Yoshi. He has TONS of potential, and honestly at this point. I feel his experience is the only thing that he lacks.. I'm going to do the best I can to get him exposed to the world... If he can get some OoS experience, I have some VERY high hopes for him, and potentially he can do bigger/better things then what Leffen, myself and other Yoshi's have accomplished as well... He has the right mindset, He specifically is EXCLUSIVE to Yoshi also..

I have very high hopes for him.

<3 Angel <3
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
^SK We love you!

On the real, everyone should watch out for Angel, he hasn't been given enough credit for his Yoshi. He has TONS of potential, and honestly at this point. I feel his experience is the only thing that he lacks.. I'm going to do the best I can to get him exposed to the world... If he can get some OoS experience, I have some VERY high hopes for him, and potentially he can do bigger/better things then what Leffen, myself and other Yoshi's have accomplished as well... He has the right mindset, He specifically is EXCLUSIVE to Yoshi also..

I have very high hopes for him.

<3 Angel <3
:D <3 :))
Thanks Vman
 

Zone46

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
11
Location
In your closet.
I have a question. I'm a rising yoshi, and have little to no experience playing with really good people (Not including Adam, or, L0zr, who is supposedly the best fox in north carolina... if i have my information right.)

At 0% on my opponent's side, if they're using Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek or Roy I need to know what should be my first precaution? also is it possible to get the Mindsets for yoshi for those specific MU's?
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
I have a question. I'm a rising yoshi, and have little to no experience playing with really good people (Not including Adam, or, L0zr, who is supposedly the best fox in north carolina... if i have my information right.)

At 0% on my opponent's side, if they're using Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek or Roy I need to know what should be my first precaution? also is it possible to get the Mindsets for yoshi for those specific MU's?
Sounds like quite the challenge you've got. Covering all those characters at once might be too broad of a question, but I'll try to give a decent answer, and also cover some individual stuff.

With playing yoshi, take care to not become overwhelmed by an opponent. By overwhelmed, I mean when opponents like marth, shiek or falco are either throwing attacks, laser or needles towards you. The oncoming pressure may cause you to retreat (towards the edge) or shield which is something you DO NOT want to do. Losing ground by retreating and limiting your options by shielding is not beneficial.
You can avoid these things by
1) making use of platforms to keep mobile
2) attempting to reflect lasers (falco specific)
3) holding your ground with Yoshi's double jump "armor" (or a Parry) to a counter attack

As a summary, when against the characters above (and really any opponent), keep your opponent on your toes and avoid being predictable by utilizing Yoshi's superb mobility both on the ground and in-air/on platforms.

**Notes: Have you looked at the yoshi guide thread, and yoshi video analysis thread?
They can provide helpful information about yoshi's attacks and tactics and ideal yoshi play. here are the links

guide-->http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=53132

videos-->http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281870

Hopefully, more people will share their ideas and thoughts to create a helpful discussion for everyone.
 

Zone46

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 19, 2010
Messages
11
Location
In your closet.
Sounds like quite the challenge you've got. Covering all those characters at once might be too broad of a question, but I'll try to give a decent answer, and also cover some individual stuff.

With playing yoshi, take care to not become overwhelmed by an opponent. By overwhelmed, I mean when opponents like marth, shiek or falco are either throwing attacks, laser or needles towards you. The oncoming pressure may cause you to retreat (towards the edge) or shield which is something you DO NOT want to do. Losing ground by retreating and limiting your options by shielding is not beneficial.
You can avoid these things by
1) making use of platforms to keep mobile
2) attempting to reflect lasers (falco specific)
3) holding your ground with Yoshi's double jump "armor" (or a Parry) to a counter attack

As a summary, when against the characters above (and really any opponent), keep your opponent on your toes and avoid being predictable by utilizing Yoshi's superb mobility both on the ground and in-air/on platforms.

**Notes: Have you looked at the yoshi guide thread, and yoshi video analysis thread?
They can provide helpful information about yoshi's attacks and tactics and ideal yoshi play. here are the links

guide-->http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=53132

videos-->http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281870

Hopefully, more people will share their ideas and thoughts to create a helpful discussion for everyone.
ive been reading up on the guide, and watching, rewatching, and studying the videos to a tee to where some of the technical skill in the videos my fingers have in muscle memory now (Now, applying it in a fight.. well.. its a different story.) BUT I AM getting there.

So, what about something more stage specific, like final destination? A lot of people here (Our friendlies are like tourney matches, so we add counter picks to our plays.) Likes to pit my yoshi against someone like a falco on final destination, and i don't exactly know how to deflect a laser with yoshi's shield, so for now, that option is out, and wth no platforms... what should I do? what's my next available option besides baiting? or is that all?
 

Nogzor'z

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
Messages
290
Location
Flagstaff, AZ
Without platforms your options are definitely more linear and limited.
Besides reflecting lasers, you still need to remain mobile. Try to stay just outside or just inside of falco's running short hop distance. If a falco becomes impatient and throws a SHFFL'd aerial at towards you, either challenge it with an up-angled F-tilt, DJC nair (absorbing the attack), or perhaps an up-tilt.
Grabbing falco is a great plus on final destination. Watch for falco landing with a flubbed(missed) aerial and grab any reflexive shielding. Down-Throw will lead to DJC U-air combos to N-air (or tech chase) and allow for you to take control of the battle.
You can also try and approach from above but doesn't always give you a good position.

Vs falco on final destination can be very difficult if you are having trouble dealing with lasers. Besides reflecting lasers, you can also DJC through an approaching Short hop laser and attack falco if he lands close to you (otherwise waveland away).

Recommended to find a way of dealing with lasers, whether it's reflecting/parrying >wavedashing them, just doubling jumping through them, or just plain out avoiding them by jumping over or ducking (although this is harder to do on FD).
 
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