Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[AXE 09]

Vman...
Is...
Amazing.

Holy crap. I seriously can't get enough of that frame-perfect Yoshi. Absolutely mind blowing lol.

Armada has been my favorite player for a long time but I have to admit, as of right now, I think both you and him are tied for #1 for my favorite player (strictly talking about in-game playstyle. As a person, I'm obviously not gonna pick him over my best friend lol. Although he does have an amazing personality).

 

[Mind Trick]

wtf at random ****riding, thanks for sharing that with us axe

general things I noticed in your matches Purple (focused on second recording):

- Complete absence of a grabgame. You need this to condition your opponent's shielding habits, if you do not grab they can easily shield everything (save for stabs), Yoshi's shieldpressure is definitely not failsafe. Also, followups. A lot of times you can't follow up with another attack and they just shield it, try to learn when those moments occur.

- Throwing out smashes. You can't force kills, you have to try to set them up by comboing into them (weak nair, bair, grab, etc.), or use CC or pullback of fsmash to use them in defensive position. Fsmash is acceptable on shield if you can make a hard read, dsmash is definitely not.

- Amazing shielddrop consistency. Really, I wish I had that. However, you seem to go out of your way to get in those positions and go for them every single time. Better opponents will punish you for that.

- Bit of an overreliance on bair. Bair is a very good move. Don't just throw it out there and hope your opponent runs into it. If you got it on shield and got behind, you were mostly punished with an aerial out of shield after. Follow with uptilt to counter.

- Going into the air for no reason. Yoshi's airborne game can be amazing, if you use it somewhat unpredictableand mostly for punishes. If you go into approaching with it when you're far out of the opponents zone, an easy dashdance counters everything you can do to attack. Especially against marth and falcon, seriously dont do this.

- For recovery try to not be in the air when your armor runs out, this cost you a couple of times. If you're low on % coming from below is almost always a good option (depends a bit on opponent's character though).

- You noticed this yourself, but shielding puts you pretty much always in a bad position. Don't be afraid, defend your space.

I think that's all I noticed, keep it up

 

[Kimimaru]

I also noticed the great shield drop consistency; I usually mess those up under pressure. There were also some times where you could've jab reset and gotten better punishes. I'm not sure if you normally integrate them into your play, but it took me only a week or so to catch missed techs and maximize my punishes with jab resets.

 

[AXE 09]

Well, I just played with Vman 2 days ago for the first time in like... ever. Playing my absolute best, that crazy dinosaur goes about even with me, which is ridiculous because he has nobody to play against where he lives whereas I practice constantly like every day. He somehow still gets better and perfects new techniques... it's just mindblowing.

 

[Kimimaru]

Would you say he's better now than a year ago? Also is he going to Apex? I forgot what his answer to that was.

 

[Purpletuce]

Ok, so we get it: AZ likes AZ. Nice.

@Mind Trick:
Thanks for the feedback guys, I'm glad I got to go on stream again and play better. I appreciate the feedback, and at some points I was very aware of me putting myself in shield too much, I'm trying to get to the point of consistency where being in shield isn't much of a disadvantage and I can just shield drop 98.4% of the time, but I definitely choked several times, and I also simply got beaten on several times for doing it. I've seen Eggz use shield drops like that, and I think it will pay off later once I get it down without choking. . . When I practice I get it much easier. . .

My grabgame I neglect pretty often, and I think that is because I used to choke on DJC U-air more than not, I've gotten much better at it, but still haven't put grabs into my game to the degree that I should.

The forcing smashes thing. . . yeah, that kills me. It is almost a random reflex when I think I see an opening, and I eat a ton of attacks for it, I need to get that out of my head. It is really holding me back. It gets really bad whenever I'm down on stocks are frustrated, I just almost spam it, embarrassing.

In a similar fashion to the above, I also get into weird loops, like I think I'm jiggs or something and think I need to zone the other guy, then I get punished. Same thing with D-tilts sometimes. I think a lot of it is my opponents too. Like playing against campy people I will get into realllly stupid loops.

Thank you very much for the feedback, there is also another recording up from the actual tourney, I have some good matches, one in a crew battle (I beat a guy that was talking insane amount of trash on FB, and then went on to take another stock off their CP. Felt awesome.)

@Kimimaru, thanks on the pressure, I mess up tons too, you might have just seen a few matches where I was on point. I do jab reset sometimes, usually only against fastfallers because they're the only people I get into the position for it on. I should try to do it more though.


Edit: Also, the most disappointing thing about the weekend, is that on Friday's stream I thought Leffen complimented my Yoshi, turns out it wasn't really Leffen. Should've known, Leffen doesn't really compliment

Also, I'm going to post some of my notes soon.

 

[TheLake]

wtf do i do when im on the ledge

at high percent

and like fox is just bairing like mad

WTF DO I YOSHI PLAYERS TELL ME!!!!!!!

 

[Nogzor'z]

Tough positioning...

Gauge the distance to determine their at a safe enough distance (judgement call) to fit in a quick ECE egg or two to perhaps hit them or throw off their spacing.

Hmm envisioning it in my mind, I would be looking for some of these situations to use the following options:

1. Utilize a few frames from grabbing the ledge and get a perfect waveland onto the stage (coming up from below) to slide past the bairing fox.

2. If you can predict the bair attempts and they happen to be near the ledge, try and squeeze in an U-air to beat out the Bair while using the upward momentum of your DJ to land on the stage.

3. Try some ledge stalling with Down-B to tease the fox into coming down to get you. I'm not sure if a well-spaced spacie bair will reach you if you Down-B at the lowest possible point to grab the ledge.

Anyone else got ideas?

 

[Krynxe]

The answer is always super armor nair

 

[Purpletuce]

I don't know if you can use the invincibility to cover you for a U-air, but other than that Angel's advice seems solid. I personally would ECE, waveland, DownB stall, dropping back then jumping up (airdodge out/in? waveland onto platform?) or getup attack depending on the spacing/my percent/etc.

 

[Kimimaru]

Super armor nair works only at low percents, although if you avoid getting hit entirely that would be the preferred option, unless the opponent is at kill percent.

As for getting back at high percents, ECEs and ledgestalls work well. The idea is to hit/trick the opponent so that you can get back safely. Wavelands and reverse Egg Rolls from the edge can work too. Yoshi's waveland is surprisingly fast so if he whiffed the aerial or you got up at the right time you might even be able to punish him for it. I doubt Fox's b-air goes under the edge, and if done perfectly a Yoshi Bomb ledgestall is 100% invincible so it's unlikely he'll hit you if you're doing it well enough. Another possible but tricky option is a rising neutral B with enough forward momentum that puts you right on the edge. I haven't worked with it much but I can at least see it being good against a shielding opponent.

 

[TheLake]

Ohh thank you thank you comrades!

 

[Purpletuce]

Yayy, 500 posts.

Notes from my tournament:

I need to make shield dropping an extension of my shield, where I can do it on command, any time I need and follow it up as I need. Still working on it but getting better.

Some things I started exploring last Wednesday: Shield drop-> B-air, DownB, Side B, waveland on platform, jump -> N-air/F-air/B-air, Egg toss. Most are probably completely useless.

I want to get much better consistency on shield drop platform cancel U-air. It combos into things very well, U-tilt or DJC U-airs usually seemed best.

When an opponent hits my shield with a particularly laggy attack I can jump up and F-air/N-air/B-air them, hopefully into combos or better setups, looks promising.

If my window is small, and they space enought that a U-air won't connect, Egg toss stops them from chasing, potentially sets up combos and adds damage.

Waveland onto the platform looks really stylish, and worked well to trick my opponent into thinking it was safe to approach, but is relatively slow. It seemed to function like a longer slower variant of most characters WD OOS, but makes you vulnerable below the platform and probably can't be used to escape pressure. Mindgames potential, but who knows. Against laggy attacks a waveland/aerial land -> quick ground move might work well (D-smash if at kill % of F-tilt for combos?) Really depends on how quickly you can get onto the stage, Yoshi's DJ sending him downwards makes this take a long time.

If you platform camp and an opponent tries to hit you from below, coming straight down aerials seems pretty obvious, but I need to work on what I can do where (I can F-air if I'm on top platform and they're low, or N-air if they're right below on any platform etc.)

Useless things that sound cool:

Egg roll out of shield drop is probably going to be useless, but it is really flashy and I like it. might be useful to mess with opponents who have fresh stock invincibility, in a similar way to reverse egg roll from ledge (I've used this a bit lately against characters that can't chase you down well when they're coming back.) If you hit it right you can also do the egg roll bounce thing, which is pretty stylish . . .

DownB is always risky since it is so laggy, but is really east to do out of a shield drop, so I might try to tinker with it, but probably won't. . .

Egg Lay doesn't seem useful ever so why do it after shield drop?



I need to stop letting my opponent dictate the pace of the match, and if I want to, I don't have to try challenging him on things, and I can simply run off into the platforms and not let them catch me. I really need to remember this sometimes. As in if I'm playing a Marth who want to have a spacing battle, I don't have to play into his hand. . . sometimes I do this and it is bad.

Fun little gimmick: run off BF and Egg Lay an opponent if they're right below the stage and you can grab them, then if you don't FF you can make it back fine and they'll be trapped under the stage. . . not really a good tactic, but it should work occasionally, and I think it is funny.

Different follow ups to F-air. Sometimes F-air -> DJC N-air isn't always best, I'm going to start doing U-tilts or DJC U-airs more often in different situations. . . I don't think I've explored them enough.

I need to start attempting to exploit openings more safely. Too many times have I thought I saw an opening and tried to force a D-smash where it doesn't belong. F-smash is generally safer with the extra hitstun and shield push etc. I need to implement that more. Too many times I've D-smashed a shield and gotten kneed.

I should mess with my opponents more when I'm waiting to read. Like when edgeguarding a Falcon I'll stand there waiting to see if they're going high/low then decide what to do. I should start doing things like crouching with D-smash spacing like I think they're going high then edgehogging, or the opposite.

I need to start pressuring shields with DJC N-airs. I've been doing this awkward thing where I'll alternate between jabs and D-tilts on shields, it isn't really effective. . .

Maybe more to come. . .



Happy Holidays everyone!

 

[Kimimaru]

Let's talk about how Yoshi performs in teams. Shroomed told me that Yoshi seems like a Tank-Sheik hybrid in that he can take many hits and also cause chaos in the areas he's present, but I tend to think of him as a tanky support. Eggs can break combos on your teammate, and Yoshi is pretty good at continuing team combos and finishing opponents. He can also literally take an opponent out of the battle for a little with Egg Lay while you and your teammate knock the other opponent offstage or something. His flaws in teams are pretty much the same as his flaws in 1v1s so I don't think we need to worry much about them.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think Yoshi has some tools that become useful in teams, and is overall a better character. Yoshi isn't too good at getting out of shield on the ground, recovering, and getting out of combos. Teammates can help with all of those problems. Yoshi eggs can help teammates recover. Yoshi survives for higher %s than most characters and can deal lots of damage. All of this information is pretty superficial, but put them together and I think Yoshi can perform well.

 

[Ripple]

so IDK if you saw recently but magus found out how yoshi can jump OOS, so now technically everything yoshi shields is a parry now. SO BROKEN

 

[SpiderMad]

Huuhhh WHAT? WHERE!

 

[Purpletuce]

In Melee? Sounds sketchy. . . is it shield drop -> instant DJ? I use that to mess with people and say I can jump OoS. . .

 

[Strong Badam]

it's hacking, purpletuce.

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, I just found what he was talking about.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15161516#post15161516

Maybe he was joking around because it was claimed that Yoshi can jump out of shield but can't when there is a texture (visible egg?) that locks him in.

It would be cool if somehow people leanred a new attribute of Yoshi's shield using this kind of data though It has all kinds of interesting things. I really want to start seeing a pattern with the multi-power shield. . .

not meant to be I guess.

 

[Kimimaru]

Darn, I got excited for a second. I always thought that Yoshi would undoubtedly be high-ish tier if he was able to jump OOS, considering his 3 frame N-air and lack of shield stun.

 

[Shiri]

I've also noticed that eggs can hit the same person twice sometimes, but I'm not sure why or how this happens. It usually happens in teams when I throw an egg and it hits the other three players. This is also weird because the second hit is significantly weaker than the first, and Yoshi's eggs do not normally do so little damage.

D1 and I were trying to get to the bottom of this a few years ago and we came short.

Mostly just to explore the character scientifically. We put way too much brainpower into it for what would have essentially amounted to nothing at face value, but we never did get to the bottom of it.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any concrete conclusions regarding this.

 

[Ripple]

eggs hit 2x because there is an egg hitbox and then an explosion hitbox.

same as samus' bombs actually.

they should always hit 2x, its only weird when it hits once then bounces.

also, low damage? eggs do like 16%

 

[Kimimaru]

Does the explosion hitbox come out on the first frame after the egg blows up?

 

[Ripple]

not sure but most likely

 

[Shiri]

We were aware of the presence of two hitboxes.

The issue occurs when a player gets hit with the egg, but the egg is still in play for a short while longer before exploding. We thought it was a phantoming phenomenon at first, but during testing, this would sometimes occur with a direct line of collision.

Either way, it's not a big deal. I just was wondering if anybody had figured it out.

 

[Purpletuce]

Possibly when the egg hits right as it is about to explode(not from impact but from time) so that it would have exploded due to impact at the same time it would have exploded due to time. So like, egg hits player with phantom hit of final frame for impact, then when it explodes it hits with full hit. Also, eggs do 12% max iirc

 

[Jackie]

I trained with VMan a few weeks back. His technical consistency and diversity with Yoshi has definitely improved dramatically. You can tell he's a lot more comfortable with his character.

If you play his Yoshi with a mindset like you play anyone else, it's likely you'll lose even if you're really good. It's not something that's easy to learn in one set. The parries, shield drops, DJC and super armor can all be punished solidly if you expect them, but I don't think anyone at APEX will expect those unless they study his videos obsessively. Axe and I probably have the most vs. Yoshi experience, haha.

 

[Purpletuce]

That sounds pretty generalized. . . we will have to see at apex. I hope vman represents well :D

I'm glad you posted, I was just about to double post to add some links:

Purpletuce vs. Alien: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L92uTnoNjxU#t=1117s

Purpletuce vs Oliver, Kieth in Corvallis vs. Eugene crew battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=L92uTnoNjxU#t=5751s

 

[Jackie]

I only watched the set versus Falcon so far. I'm better at critiquing by pointing out bad habits than good ones, so don't take this as an attack towards you.

-Falcon's one of the easiest characters to shield pressure, but I saw none of that from you. There were a few times you were behind a shielding Falcon that rolled away from you every time, but you didn't seem to notice. Go for that DJC nair pressure behind them then react to the roll.

-You full jump way too much in a way that left you vulnerable to Falcon's uairs.

-You don't dashdance AT ALL. You mostly jump around or wavedash dtilt.

-You didn't seem to capitalize off of missed techs very much. I happened to catch one jab reset, but I think you messed up the DJC uair. I recommend you practice those DJC uairs at varying heights, mostly for those jab resets and for varying platform heights.

Other stuff takes too much conceptual explanation but I think these are some fundamental points you should take seriously and work on. I could see a lot of what you went for but messed up on due to execution, so of course the timeless advice of play more applies well here.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Be careful using Bair, specifically in the falcon matchup as his attacks can eat through it.
Instead, and this may take more precision, utilize up angled F-tilts or U-Smash to catch falcon out of his shffled approaches.

As jackie said, shield pressure against falcon works wonders so make note of that.

Yeah buddy! More yoshi!

 

[Kimimaru]

What does everyone think about crouch -> JC U-smash against Jigglypuff? Yoshi has a low crouch so it will force her to get dangerously close to the ground. Just a thought.

 

[Purpletuce]

Thanks a bunch for the advice, I still have lots of problems with consistency, I just have to work on that. I really like the ideas of using up angled F-tilts and U-smashes, and I've written it down in my notes like 5 times, but everytime I start to implement, I just start going back into old habits, it is silly. . . same with shield pressure, I have a habit of not doing it. I'll work on those for sure. Dash dance I never thought about, but I usually do it, I don't know why I didn't there.

I definitely crouch often vs. Jiggs, not necessarily into U-smash, but I crouch quite a bit.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hey everyone, I just thought I'd release a 2nd Eggstinction...

I wanted to start off the new year right, and hopefully with this being the first combo video of 2013, We could have a great start to the year 2013!

I hope everyone likes, and let's have another great year... I'll be making other combo videos this year also.. Let's make this another great year for smash... Making these are fun and challenging!.. ^^

Well here it is...

"Eggstinction II" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yot4_WIQrBM

Download Link - TBD (upon request)

Spoiler

If it's received well I'll make one.. Not gonna make one if nobody wants it..

ENJOY!

And of course leave a comment on here and on youtube! and subscribe! <3

^Copy/pasted from thread! Okay.. all projects are done, and I have 2 days off in a row for the first time in like... who knows how long... Will be doing a MAJOR update, to the thread(s) and am making a new years resolution to be back, and dedicated to this board..

I know i've said i'm back before... but for real... I'm BACK! and will be here to support you guys.. I know I've alot of questions to answer/address, and give my insights on.. I'll do that starting tomorrow, once I get some sleep!.. I'll reread the board and see what's going on.. Thanks again!

Oh also HAPPY NEW YEAR YOSHI'S!

and yeah why not start off the year with the years first CV.. ^See above

<3

 

[Kimimaru]

Amazing combo video, V3ctorman! You went above and beyond for this one; I enjoyed every second of it!

 

[Krynxe]

Wow, great video dude

Your yoshi is phenomenal.

Are you going to apex? I'd love to see you go

 

[MountainGoat]

Pretty sweet combo video. Hope you come to Apex and show everyone what Yoshi can do.

 

[Kimimaru]

I'm going to a tournament this Sunday, and hopefully I get some matches recorded so my fellow Yoshi mains can critique my play.

Sidenote: It seems that Egg Lay has some invincibility frames once you hit someone with it, but it doesn't show the frame data for it on these boards. Can anyone find this out?

 

[Shiri]

I don't have the numbers on me, but if I remember correctly...

...Yoshi is completely invulnerable to knockback while actually laying the egg, so as soon as he captures them in his mouth. I can't remember whether or not he still takes damage, and I remember noting that I could not get knocked back under certain circumstances while Yoshi was still pulling opponents in with his tongue but I can't remember if I ever came to a concrete conclusion on how to reproduce that. Once the opponent is swallowed, however, Yoshi cannot be knocked back until the egg has been laid.

 

[Kimimaru]

I think he's completely invincible during that period. If you see one of Angel's videos against a Samus player, the missile hits him after he swallowed Samus and he takes no damage at all.

EDIT: Just came back from the tournament. Summary:

-I played several unfamiliar MUs including Link and Young Link. Young Link is the harder of the two to get to, but he has more trouble killing Yoshi than Link
-I got recorded in a teams match! This was the first time I played teams and with this Fox player in a tournament, and we were against Zhu and Alan (we lost). Unfortunately this is the only match I played that got recorded (the only one that I know of, at least)
Match is here (any and all criticism is welcome)
-In singles my first match was against SilentSpectre. I did better than I thought I would, getting him down to his last stock in both games but ultimately losing the set 0-2. I think I can beat him with a bit more experience though
-My second match was against a Falco main named Adam. I 3 stocked him both games and won the set 2-0
-My third match was against Germ, a well-known Link player that I'm sure you all know. We were both unfamiliar to the Link-Yoshi MU so it was a very interesting match (I wish it got recorded). I beat him the first game on DL and he counterpicked Pokemon Stadium and won the second game. I went back to stadium, even though I should've went to Yoshi's Story (less space for Link's projectile spamming), and lost. All three games were close with us both being at +100% and at our last stocks

I played my best today by far, especially in my execution. With all of that said, does anyone know any really effective ways to edgeguard Link/Young Link? I hit Germ with a rising N-air from the ledge when he was coming up from his Hookshot grapple on the side of Stadium, which worked once, but his diagonal Spin Attack recovery can hit you at a good angle that makes it tough to outrange.