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Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)
- Thread starter Taj278
- Start date
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
If only...I wish Yoshi had black and white colors in Melee.
I feel as though that would be the easiest visual modification to do, but what do I know?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I've played on some hacked wiis and the skins are out there. I like them. . . I also want purple Yoshi, but I've been fine with pink Yoshi lately.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
So I said I would talk about my exciting matches. . . and I simply didn't. Here it is.
Even at upper levels of play, I noticed that Yoshi still has an advantage early on due to you knowing the MU better than your opponent. Better opponents figure things out more quickly. Example, I played a Gannon from California who was pretty good(I saw him go last hit with Bladewise in a friendly), and the first matches he had quite a bit of trouble with Yoshi, but as we played more, it showed that he was definitely winning, this took several matches. Playing against Silent Wolf, in my first match, I actually managed to get first stock (not a silly gimp, I got more % on him), I used lots of silly things like roll -> parry and abused shield drops. After the first stock, he figured me out, and destroyed me for most of the tourney. I thought it was interesting to see that. One thing he did after I parried him once or twice, is started using drill. He figured out how to beat (for the most part) and parry he saw coming in 1 match. If I did random parries (which I tried, bad idea) he just would pressure me and get a combo out of it. . . so parries was almost a gimmick against a player his level :\
I played Bladewise quite a bit, and learned some about the Peach MU. One thing I noticed quickly is that you cannot egg camp a good peach. Here is how it went: I throw egg, he floats through it with a B-air, then is on me. When Peach was on me, I was in trouble. Eggs were more for racking up % if they were offstage, and really awesome if you can break their float. When Peach floats, she can maneuver around your attacks really easy, and is hard to edgeguard. When they lost their float, a chance for edgeguard seemed really easy. The main goal I had in this MU was spacing and slowing them down, D-tilt is good for giving you the best position possible every time it hit. . . jab also put in a good amount of work. I liked WD back F-smash to finish things earlier on, but that is hardish to hit. U-air and U-smash were good if you can get her above her. I think I got a gimp once, where I D-tilted on their UpB, and that was awesome. . . Shield drops were essential as always, but the D-smash makes it scary. . . got caught in that once, and it pretty much got me to killing %. I got several platform cancel U-airs out of shield drop, which put me in a great position, and made me look cool
I generally got beaten pretty bad, although I got him into the 70%-80% area on one stock, and wish I could have taken it :\ Didn't win ever though.
Might add more, have to go to class.
Even at upper levels of play, I noticed that Yoshi still has an advantage early on due to you knowing the MU better than your opponent. Better opponents figure things out more quickly. Example, I played a Gannon from California who was pretty good(I saw him go last hit with Bladewise in a friendly), and the first matches he had quite a bit of trouble with Yoshi, but as we played more, it showed that he was definitely winning, this took several matches. Playing against Silent Wolf, in my first match, I actually managed to get first stock (not a silly gimp, I got more % on him), I used lots of silly things like roll -> parry and abused shield drops. After the first stock, he figured me out, and destroyed me for most of the tourney. I thought it was interesting to see that. One thing he did after I parried him once or twice, is started using drill. He figured out how to beat (for the most part) and parry he saw coming in 1 match. If I did random parries (which I tried, bad idea) he just would pressure me and get a combo out of it. . . so parries was almost a gimmick against a player his level :\
I played Bladewise quite a bit, and learned some about the Peach MU. One thing I noticed quickly is that you cannot egg camp a good peach. Here is how it went: I throw egg, he floats through it with a B-air, then is on me. When Peach was on me, I was in trouble. Eggs were more for racking up % if they were offstage, and really awesome if you can break their float. When Peach floats, she can maneuver around your attacks really easy, and is hard to edgeguard. When they lost their float, a chance for edgeguard seemed really easy. The main goal I had in this MU was spacing and slowing them down, D-tilt is good for giving you the best position possible every time it hit. . . jab also put in a good amount of work. I liked WD back F-smash to finish things earlier on, but that is hardish to hit. U-air and U-smash were good if you can get her above her. I think I got a gimp once, where I D-tilted on their UpB, and that was awesome. . . Shield drops were essential as always, but the D-smash makes it scary. . . got caught in that once, and it pretty much got me to killing %. I got several platform cancel U-airs out of shield drop, which put me in a great position, and made me look cool
I generally got beaten pretty bad, although I got him into the 70%-80% area on one stock, and wish I could have taken it :\ Didn't win ever though.Might add more, have to go to class.
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
quick analysis/run through of matches like that are always enticing reads (whether they are specific or generalized).
A main point that you touch on was that the opponent essentially "figured" you out.
Unfortunately, yoshi does not have as large as a selection of options compared to most characters, even though his options can be pretty wacky/unorthodox/unique and catch people off guard. This is why being unpredictable is probably a good idea. The notion of being "unpredictable" varies with each opponent/character though and can be tough to accomplish.
A main point that you touch on was that the opponent essentially "figured" you out.
Unfortunately, yoshi does not have as large as a selection of options compared to most characters, even though his options can be pretty wacky/unorthodox/unique and catch people off guard. This is why being unpredictable is probably a good idea. The notion of being "unpredictable" varies with each opponent/character though and can be tough to accomplish.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
When I say figured it out, I meant the little tricks of the MU, like he can only shield drop, he can quickly grab ledges, parries, etc.
From what you said it doesn't seem like you punished him out of parry. A proper parry punish cannot be avoided because parry -> N-air will always hit the opponent in endlag from their aerial (they suffer from hitlag too while you don't). The only time a parry doesn't work is against quick multi-hit attacks, but if you're opponent is just spamming that then you can easily counter it.
Also I think I found a great anti-recovery method against most characters on Battlefield (Peach is one of them), but I have to test it first to confirm.
Also I think I found a great anti-recovery method against most characters on Battlefield (Peach is one of them), but I have to test it first to confirm.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Most hitlag is pretty marginal, and yoshi is still subject to 6 frames for jump and (3?) Frames for n air, not to mention added time for djc. . . Compare that to peach auto cancels, and it is risky. Also, this assumes the peach has bad spacing and is on top of you. If you're both spacing like you should, n air might not be in range.
Yeah, N-air comes out on frame 3. Jump -> N-air is faster than DJC N-air in terms of raw speed because you don't have to wait as many frames before you do the N-air. Peach still won't be out of lag if you Parry -> N-air a standard FC F-air.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I don't know. . . just seems like a bad idea. Also, spacing kind of makes it a no-go, I don't think I was ever in a position where I got F-air right on me, and I could get a N-air out, Bladewise was good about that. Who knows, maybe it would work somehow. . .
I could see it working if your back is facing her, since N-air's hitbox goes out further from the back. It could work if you're facing forwards too if the Peach is dropping in to follow up from the aerial. Even if you can't get a hit off, Peach isn't getting anything out of doing those aerials either (if you're good at parrying, which is easier to do against Peach because she's a slower character) so she might have to rethink her approach a bit.
Also another piece of advice: Don't blame your character. When I lose I honestly feel that it was my error rather than Yoshi as a character. I really think Yoshi has the tools to get top 8 in a national if Yoshi mains can utilize them well enough. Axe is doing well with Pikachu, a character considered low tier, and now people think he should be mid tier. Let's bump Yoshi up to that status too!
Also another piece of advice: Don't blame your character. When I lose I honestly feel that it was my error rather than Yoshi as a character. I really think Yoshi has the tools to get top 8 in a national if Yoshi mains can utilize them well enough. Axe is doing well with Pikachu, a character considered low tier, and now people think he should be mid tier. Let's bump Yoshi up to that status too
!
leffen
Smash Champion
I should stop looking into this forum. I recently played a bit of yoshi and improved quite a bit on many points, sadly no one in here even seems to know enough about the character to ever discuss things on the level I'd like... it just feels like you guys are stuck in kindergarten.
All the foolishness thats spewed out about Yoshi from just makes me depressed and makes me not want to play this character at all, and sadly a couple of you just really fit into the stereotype of "lowtierheroscrub"
I mean seriously... parrying is a gimmick Fox can drill through it? Apparently you don't realize how ****ing awful of a move drill is if you exploit it properly (coming from a fox main). It has no priority, doesnt work if you're in the air and its really easily punishable.
Parrying is an incredibly strong tool because it forces fox to do drill, which makes you able to **** all of his approaches super easily >_>
as for peachs fair, you can parry it->nair very easily... just think about it jeez
if the peach happens to use the TIP of the move to hit your shield, then its very easy to just not shield it and punish (fsmash for example). Parrying AT LEAST forces her to space it that way, which leaves lots of other holes in her approach. Secondly, you can just dash into her and then parry->nair/usmash... this also option selects so if she doesnt fair you'll throw out a nair / usmash that'll very likely hit her if she does nothing
whatever... keep blaming the character for losing when you're an awful player to begin with and then comment on how it is gonna be at high level play
LOL
im out
All the foolishness thats spewed out about Yoshi from just makes me depressed and makes me not want to play this character at all, and sadly a couple of you just really fit into the stereotype of "lowtierheroscrub"
I mean seriously... parrying is a gimmick Fox can drill through it? Apparently you don't realize how ****ing awful of a move drill is if you exploit it properly (coming from a fox main). It has no priority, doesnt work if you're in the air and its really easily punishable.
Parrying is an incredibly strong tool because it forces fox to do drill, which makes you able to **** all of his approaches super easily >_>
as for peachs fair, you can parry it->nair very easily... just think about it jeez
if the peach happens to use the TIP of the move to hit your shield, then its very easy to just not shield it and punish (fsmash for example). Parrying AT LEAST forces her to space it that way, which leaves lots of other holes in her approach. Secondly, you can just dash into her and then parry->nair/usmash... this also option selects so if she doesnt fair you'll throw out a nair / usmash that'll very likely hit her if she does nothing
whatever... keep blaming the character for losing when you're an awful player to begin with and then comment on how it is gonna be at high level play
LOL
im out
Leffen, at this point it honestly seems like you just don't want us talking about Yoshi. If we have inaccurate information you're welcome to correct it, but putting us down because of it will get neither of us anywhere. Yoshi is already a rare enough main and we only have a few people posting on here regularly, so why not contribute some more positive feedback?
Also I don't get what's inaccurate about what I said. Up above I quoted posts from myself that stated pretty much exactly what you just said. None of us are looking to fight or prove who's better than another; we're just here to discuss Yoshi and improve ourselves as players just as much as you.
To be honest, I watch your Yoshi videos repeatedly and take mental notes. It would be great if you'd help us out more (Ex. responding to PMs).
With that said, I'd really like to see more of your Yoshi.
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
Don't take it too seriously Kimimaru, it's just that time of the month again for leffen
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
I still play occasionally, mostly Climbers, Yoshi and Fox. However, I have to work every saturday and sunday and have studies to do during the week, so it's been a while since I've been to a tournament.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
"I'm just better to the point where you don't even understand." -Kindergarten logic of Leffen.
Leffen, all you do is talk about how much better you think your Yoshi is. You haven't earned the ability to talk the way you do (no Yoshi has at this point). All you have is a few videos of you beating some players irrelevant to the scene here, which gives little to no perspective to the skill of your Yoshi. Other than that, you have a few tourneys where you beat bads then switched to Fox for any serious matches. Talking about how good you are means nothing.
You haven't shown that you know much, you simply say you do. "I have multiple gamebreaking techniques" Lies. You're worse than Pi, because you've yet to back up the things you say.
Low tier hero scrub, Lefffen.
I'm going to start ignoring Leffen, because his only purpose is to stroke his ego. If he makes a singular useful post, someone will probably say something about it, like "Nice, Leffen". That doesn't happen anymore because Leffen doesn't do anything good. I'll start paying attention if that happens.
Also, I don't know where people are reading me blaming my character for my results. I say certain mechanisms are bad, and that is my opinion, I also say certain MUs are bad, which is how I start to mitigate them. I am not blaming my character, I am trying to understand the limitations of my character.
If I thought I was unable to use Yoshi, I would play a different character.
Also, I'm planning on going to a Washington tourney, my first out of state and there should be people from Canada and Oregon and more, which will be cool. Maybe there will be recordings . . .
Leffen, all you do is talk about how much better you think your Yoshi is. You haven't earned the ability to talk the way you do (no Yoshi has at this point). All you have is a few videos of you beating some players irrelevant to the scene here, which gives little to no perspective to the skill of your Yoshi. Other than that, you have a few tourneys where you beat bads then switched to Fox for any serious matches. Talking about how good you are means nothing.
You haven't shown that you know much, you simply say you do. "I have multiple gamebreaking techniques" Lies. You're worse than Pi, because you've yet to back up the things you say.
Low tier hero scrub, Lefffen.
I'm going to start ignoring Leffen, because his only purpose is to stroke his ego. If he makes a singular useful post, someone will probably say something about it, like "Nice, Leffen". That doesn't happen anymore because Leffen doesn't do anything good. I'll start paying attention if that happens.
Also, I don't know where people are reading me blaming my character for my results. I say certain mechanisms are bad, and that is my opinion, I also say certain MUs are bad, which is how I start to mitigate them. I am not blaming my character, I am trying to understand the limitations of my character.
If I thought I was unable to use Yoshi, I would play a different character.
Also, I'm planning on going to a Washington tourney, my first out of state and there should be people from Canada and Oregon and more, which will be cool. Maybe there will be recordings . . .
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Perhaps the whole blaming yoshi/character thing started when I said "yoshi does not have as large as a selection of options compared to most characters?"
Low tier hero scrub made me laugh.
I like kindergarten.
Do work at that tourney, purple!
Low tier hero scrub made me laugh.
I like kindergarten.
Do work at that tourney, purple!
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I do believe Yoshi has less options than higher tier characters. . . I didn't really know that was under question. It is a generalized sense of what makes many characters 'lower tier'. I think he is still viable though, just has a little more of an uphill climb.
I'll try at the tourney, but I don't know how stacked it will be
I'll try at the tourney, but I don't know how stacked it will be
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
My responses are to the bold above^
At times you'll have to ignore Leffen, he's a little "tough" and difficult to understand, just has a strong mentality, idk how else to say it.. He comes off as offensive, but isn't like this in person.. (I'm prolly the only Yoshi besides MT, that has met him IRL) he's chill...He comes off a lil difficult, and harsh, but I to a "point" can understand why he's like this...
Also, being the only Yoshi (whom I know of, that has actually played Leffen also, Leffen has INDEED backed up many points that he has stated, again, I've played him, and discussed...Also Leffen has played top level players with his Yoshi as well, don't get that twisted at all...He has definetely earned his say on Yoshi knowledge... Again he's a lil harsh, but don't let that blind you from the truth, he is indeed very legit..
I understand you want to ignore Leffen, but his knowledge, and understanding of the game is quite well, he may come off as just rude/blunt... Trust me Leffen HATES me, or at least it seems that way, (from earlier posts ive seen) but I like, and respect him, like I do all players.) I want to think, his comments towards me, he sees me as a "rival" type figure... not in the overall player department, because he is beyond me there, but perhaps as a Yoshi player also...who knows...
Lastly again, it's not a BIG deal, but I'm defending for myself here, but it is to a small extent starting to pester me, about the "No Yoshi has proven anything/deserves to say this/that" etc... Again no harsh feelings intended.... but if ANY Yoshi has proven ANYTHING.. it has been ME... Sure it was years ago, but it was a 32 man bracket, and NAME the last tournament at international level that Yoshi was even IN A 32 man bracket... (US/NTSC) you won't find a similar accomplishment... and that's just for those that can make it... Angel, is doing AMAZING things also with Yoshi, he simply doesn't get the exposure that I get, so he hasn't got the opportunity I have...and I only had 1 showing to begin with.. (Genesis II, I only entered doubles, Apex2012, I tried a similar feat with Roy, and failed.)
I've played MANY of the current top level players in this game with Yoshi... and will play many more, and I assure you, EVERYONE will vouch for me, whether it's from Hungrybox, overhyping me at Pound 5, to Kirbykaze, chaingrabbing me to death, or even Hax, with the confidence I needed to pull through, and of course Leffen, pushing me to my limits mentally with HARSH words of wisdom/negative motivation, I've played the MOST current top level players with Yoshi.... If ANYONE has earned it, it has by a noticeable margin been me....whether it's because I've been the only one able to show, or because, my performance REGARDLESS the reason, I've proved it...and that needed to be noted.. (NTSC) and players like MT, Leffen have proven it in PAL)
Sorry I don't post much, TRUST me I'm working VERY HARD, on becoming active on the boards here again, but things in life cost $$$$, and I need to straighten alot of things out.. I have a competetive scene to keep up with here... (again, AZ is stacked, but I live 2+ hours away from all AZ, it isn't like I get practice like everyone else does.) I to this day, sometimes regret teaching Axe many things...
JK axe <3 But I've also learned from him too
Again, I agree with you on many things, but some things I also disagree on... Yes Leffen comes off arrogant, but it's not ALL as it seems...
that or I'm too nice who knows.
Lastly, good luck with your tournament ^^ Rep the dino well, and good luck for your first OoS tourney...
P5 was mine
Good luck with the Dino man, and keep up the Yoshi. and discussion on these boards hot.. Angel, you, Kimi, etc are the new generation of Yoshi.. I'm getting old....too old, but i'll be around, for longer than most of you think
EDIT: Eggstinction II will be out January 2013...
it's looking good...no great.. Followed by Axe Effect II, and another "surprise" ^^ hype?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
You are way too nice V
Also Leffen doesn't like you, at least partially, because of all the exposure you get that he feels like he should be getting (or at least, he feels like you shouldn't be getting).
Also Leffen doesn't like you, at least partially, because of all the exposure you get that he feels like he should be getting (or at least, he feels like you shouldn't be getting).
Mind Trick
Smash Ace
When leffen does provide information, you shouldn't dismiss it, it's usually very insightful. I also think some of the players he has beaten are not irrelevant to the scene at all (at least not the European one, and you shouldn't underestimate it). I kind of admire his labmentality and drive, could have helped me a lot when I was starting out to see things in that way. I have actually never upset anyone, so I'm not sure what I have proven.
All that said, his personality is absolutely horrible, at least online it is (where most people show their true face), I have never met him in person.
I like watching all the yoshi's though (except for my own lol), leffen has the most interesting playstyle to me, but I still really enjoy watching vman and angel as well. I'm def interested in seeing video's of kimimaru and purple also.
All that said, his personality is absolutely horrible, at least online it is (where most people show their true face), I have never met him in person.
I like watching all the yoshi's though (except for my own lol), leffen has the most interesting playstyle to me, but I still really enjoy watching vman and angel as well. I'm def interested in seeing video's of kimimaru and purple also.
Silent Wolf
...
lool .
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Vman your post was full of feels ))
But yeah as stated and reiterated above, leffen can be quite crass about some things but states good information mixed in his posts. He definitely deserves to be in his current position.
I wish I could go to more tourneys.
Oh and, killing someone with B-air!? Nice kimimaru :D
))But yeah as stated and reiterated above, leffen can be quite crass about some things but states good information mixed in his posts. He definitely deserves to be in his current position.
I wish I could go to more tourneys.
Oh and, killing someone with B-air!? Nice kimimaru :D
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Who did you kill with B-air, I can only imagine like a Falco or a Marth without a jump. . .
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to undermine the achievements of anyone when I say nobody has earned the ability to simply say "they're too good for everyone to understand" I think that everyone is at a level with their Yoshi that they can at least communicate what they think. To simply say I don't know what I'm talking about and you are too far above me seems like a stretch. Also, some of what I was talking about was preceding last year's Apex, Leffen had "multiple gamebreaking techniques", and I think that is all hot air. All he does is talk and act like he is definitely the best Yoshi. Considering Vman's performances as well as the potential of the players with less experience, it seems like arrogance.
Also, regarding when Leffen provides advice, it doesn't really happen. It happened in the past, but I guess when Leffen realized the entire Yoshi board didn't want to meatride him into the sunset, he stopped doing anything. At this point I've read every post in the major threads here(there aren't too many) and Leffen has given advice ~10 times in the over 1000 posts in this thread. I won't hold my breath.
Also worth noting, I do respect Leffen's playstyle, and have learned a lot from him. (Although lately I've been learning more from Angel's style.)
Sorry if I seem frustrated, maybe it is just dead week.
Hopefully there will be recordings of me soon, I feel like seeing me play will help me see my own bad habits, and possibly get advice from others. I should get recorded at either the WA tourney hosted by Silent Wolf, or the one the week after in Portland. . . we'll see. :\
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to undermine the achievements of anyone when I say nobody has earned the ability to simply say "they're too good for everyone to understand" I think that everyone is at a level with their Yoshi that they can at least communicate what they think. To simply say I don't know what I'm talking about and you are too far above me seems like a stretch. Also, some of what I was talking about was preceding last year's Apex, Leffen had "multiple gamebreaking techniques", and I think that is all hot air. All he does is talk and act like he is definitely the best Yoshi. Considering Vman's performances as well as the potential of the players with less experience, it seems like arrogance.
Also, regarding when Leffen provides advice, it doesn't really happen. It happened in the past, but I guess when Leffen realized the entire Yoshi board didn't want to meatride him into the sunset, he stopped doing anything. At this point I've read every post in the major threads here(there aren't too many) and Leffen has given advice ~10 times in the over 1000 posts in this thread. I won't hold my breath.
Also worth noting, I do respect Leffen's playstyle, and have learned a lot from him. (Although lately I've been learning more from Angel's style.)
Sorry if I seem frustrated, maybe it is just dead week.
Hopefully there will be recordings of me soon, I feel like seeing me play will help me see my own bad habits, and possibly get advice from others. I should get recorded at either the WA tourney hosted by Silent Wolf, or the one the week after in Portland. . . we'll see. :\
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Perhaps randall shenanigans lead to killing off the side with B-air?
I'm excited for more yoshi vids.
I'm excited for more yoshi vids.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Can somebody explain that parry thing / give me a link to a guide? This is my first time @ the Yoshi section. :D
When Yoshi is entering his shield, he's completely invincible for those 6 frames of animation. In those frames, if someone hits Yoshi, he won't suffer from hitlag, but his opponent will. It's similar to new stock invincibility. Also in those frames, Yoshi is able to jump/U-smash/do normal OOS options. So with parrying you basically time your shield right and hit them, usually with an aerial.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263122
Is a pretty good guide. There are also tons of posts strewn about the boards about it. The above guide should tell you just about everything. Things to note: holding down your shield button before it clicks as you plug in your controller makes it easier to have options (because any amount of lightsheilding will make it so you can't jump OoS). Ways people have practiced it: playing against M2 (shadow balls) Gannon (slow moves) or Falco (lasers). A CPU works for all of the above. There are other things . . . but that is the jist of it.
I just skimmed Sheer's thread. . . I think some things you should know is that Mind Trick is right in those first few posts, and also the longer you wait before JCing your parry, the longer your window for parrying. So it you Shield on frame 1, and jump on frame 2 and grab on frame 3, you have a 1 frame window. If you shield on frame 1 and jump on frame 6 and grab on frame 7, you have a 5 frame window. This also goes to say there is a downside to parrying every time you jump/U-smash/grab, and that is you will delay by the parry window you use. So if you use a maximum parry window every time you jump, you will have a 6 frame (1/10th second) delay on all of your jumps/grabs/U-smashes/WDes etc.
(I'm not 100% certain on all the above, since I haven't checked anything recently, this is based on memory.)
Is a pretty good guide. There are also tons of posts strewn about the boards about it. The above guide should tell you just about everything. Things to note: holding down your shield button before it clicks as you plug in your controller makes it easier to have options (because any amount of lightsheilding will make it so you can't jump OoS). Ways people have practiced it: playing against M2 (shadow balls) Gannon (slow moves) or Falco (lasers). A CPU works for all of the above. There are other things . . . but that is the jist of it.
I just skimmed Sheer's thread. . . I think some things you should know is that Mind Trick is right in those first few posts, and also the longer you wait before JCing your parry, the longer your window for parrying. So it you Shield on frame 1, and jump on frame 2 and grab on frame 3, you have a 1 frame window. If you shield on frame 1 and jump on frame 6 and grab on frame 7, you have a 5 frame window. This also goes to say there is a downside to parrying every time you jump/U-smash/grab, and that is you will delay by the parry window you use. So if you use a maximum parry window every time you jump, you will have a 6 frame (1/10th second) delay on all of your jumps/grabs/U-smashes/WDes etc.
(I'm not 100% certain on all the above, since I haven't checked anything recently, this is based on memory.)
Silly Kyle
Smash Champion
Angel and Vman are the best Yoshi players <3
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Tee
hee
10
s
leffen
Smash Champion
Wow, this place really blew up while I was gone over the weekend. I'll try to answer some of the points you guys brought up.
Firstly, I'd like to say that you were very correct in a sense Kimimaru, and you certainly seem a lot better than some of the others here.
Drama below, skip if you don't want it:
and yeah, I do act and talk like I'm better than everyone, but that is because I think I am. I like being honest. Feel free to ignore helpful advice because you can't stand my attitude.
So some random advice to keep this post for being 100% drama:
- Don't forget how the tech mechanics works. You can't tech again after for around 40 frames, so for example when you are tech chasing at low percent you can do a down angled ftilt/uair/utilt/dash attack that leads into another guaranteed punish since they can't tech. This also works in situations where you know they've have been pressing L/R, so for punishing wavedashes, and lcancels.
One good trick I use when shielding on platforms is to wait for them to do an aerial and lcancel it, then shield drop uair. Unless they are using light press to Lcancel, they will miss the tech for sure. This gives you a insane form of punishment by using a FJ Dair->Fsmash on their missed tech.
- Practice throwing eggsssss. Eggs aren't really used to their real potential I feel. You can really do some sick **** with eggs, so I advice you guys to go into the lab and try to do every possible strength and angle of the egg toss. Theres over a hundred different ones, and just a single frame of holding down B increases the strength you throw it at by a noticeable margin.
The weakest possible throw is incredible for protecting yourself with while ledge planking for example.
Another really good trick while at the ledge is to throw the egg high and slow, so that it just barely hits the high on the back of their shield. This not only gives it a very high chance of shield poking, but it also makes it bounce on their shield once, and then explode just a second after, locking them in shield stun.
This allows you to easily get a guaranteed jump> egg lay or dj->djcland ->dash grab or you could keep throwing eggs to either shield poke or to hit them as they try to escape from the shield pressure. When one egg hits you should try to follow up with a ledgehop ->nair/uair, dj ->fair/uair or a getup attack. A very sneaky option is to do a reverse egg roll from the ledge as a egg hits them after shielding. The egg roll is very weak, making them touch the floor almost instantly, and gives you a free dsmash since they were just shielding (the same theory could be applied with dj->fair)
Another good tactic with eggs is to throw them while recovering. I haven't seen any other yoshi use this yet, but its really good, especially at higher percents. You could need some practice to not DJ before your up b though, so I'd advice you to practice by getting hit by a level 9 computer and then recovering while throwing eggs.
- FJ bair is your by far best spacing tool, spam it. Preferably with the use of pivots/wavedashes to get more options in how you space it.
Firstly, I'd like to say that you were very correct in a sense Kimimaru, and you certainly seem a lot better than some of the others here.
Drama below, skip if you don't want it:
alright:
Oh, and even if I did, who are you to really say anything. All you do is ask questions (bad ones at that) and talk about how awful you do at tournaments. Big contributor.
I don't see anyone whine at Vman, who only ever comes in to talk on smashboards to get some attention. Have you ever really seen Vman post an really informative post ever since the "vman is the best yoshi" thread was started?
also, pardon me, but what good player has any other yoshi player beat?
also look for armada vs hbox to see one of the techniques
@Vman:
I don't hate you. However, I do really dislike that you are such a lowtierhero, who think that a futile accomplishment matters just because you were playing with a "bad" (yoshi is high tier) character. And then you constantly come in and say "oh hi im sad ppl are forgetting pound 5" and "oh hi im back for the 123103710371 time give me some attention"
The thing is, you take every chance you get to prove that pound 5 was a fluke. You never do well at locals, you didnt enter at g2, and you got annihilated as yoshi at apex2012 (lol you didnt go roy, I watched you get double 3 stocked by stabbedbyahippie as yoshi).
The only videos that are up of you doing well as yoshi are hand picked friendlies
No one has proven anything with Yoshi in NTSC, Bowser players have done way better than you did at pound 5, and he is at least bottom 3. Winning against people with no matchup experience in bo3 sets just proves that you had more gimmicks/that they didn't know the matchup, and ANY character could do this (chillindude vs DJ nintendo)
I honestly do not give a damn about if people think you're the better Yoshi, it's very clear that everyone would like you to be. If people really think that me being the better, and much more motivated player overall doesn't give me leverage over a getting last in a bracket 2 years ago and then basically quitting then I don't value their opinion anyway.
I know that I'm the better myself, so its really just funny at this point.
However, if you or any other Yoshi main would like to bet on it (according to how many vman says he has vouchers you have others could back you up I guess) then I'd put any amount on me winning.
But that isn't going to happen.
Because you don't play to be the best, you play to be a low tier hero, to get that 15 minutes of fame from not doing awful with that random low tier (roy, gaw, ness, mewtwo, yoshi so far?).
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate you as a person. I just hate your smash "persona" (just like most of you other guys hate me lol).
No, I don't. However, every time I do post with info (which I have done a million times in the yoshi/fox boards) no one ever ever ever tries to implement any of it.
Oh, and even if I did, who are you to really say anything. All you do is ask questions (bad ones at that) and talk about how awful you do at tournaments. Big contributor.
I don't see anyone whine at Vman, who only ever comes in to talk on smashboards to get some attention. Have you ever really seen Vman post an really informative post ever since the "vman is the best yoshi" thread was started?
lol, in all three of the tournaments I won with yoshi the only times I switched from Yoshi was because my opponent requested it, and when I had already won with Yoshi before.
also, pardon me, but what good player has any other yoshi player beat?
Hahaha, posts like this make me long for Apex or Beast3 when I can show you guys the techniques. Not really sure if I'm gonna spoil the how-tos honestly though, since no other player really reveal their secrets.
also look for armada vs hbox to see one of the techniques
@Vman:
I don't hate you. However, I do really dislike that you are such a lowtierhero, who think that a futile accomplishment matters just because you were playing with a "bad" (yoshi is high tier) character. And then you constantly come in and say "oh hi im sad ppl are forgetting pound 5" and "oh hi im back for the 123103710371 time give me some attention"
The thing is, you take every chance you get to prove that pound 5 was a fluke. You never do well at locals, you didnt enter at g2, and you got annihilated as yoshi at apex2012 (lol you didnt go roy, I watched you get double 3 stocked by stabbedbyahippie as yoshi).
The only videos that are up of you doing well as yoshi are hand picked friendlies
No one has proven anything with Yoshi in NTSC, Bowser players have done way better than you did at pound 5, and he is at least bottom 3. Winning against people with no matchup experience in bo3 sets just proves that you had more gimmicks/that they didn't know the matchup, and ANY character could do this (chillindude vs DJ nintendo)
I honestly do not give a damn about if people think you're the better Yoshi, it's very clear that everyone would like you to be. If people really think that me being the better, and much more motivated player overall doesn't give me leverage over a getting last in a bracket 2 years ago and then basically quitting then I don't value their opinion anyway.
I know that I'm the better myself, so its really just funny at this point.
However, if you or any other Yoshi main would like to bet on it (according to how many vman says he has vouchers you have others could back you up I guess) then I'd put any amount on me winning.
But that isn't going to happen.
Because you don't play to be the best, you play to be a low tier hero, to get that 15 minutes of fame from not doing awful with that random low tier (roy, gaw, ness, mewtwo, yoshi so far?).
Don't get me wrong, I don't hate you as a person. I just hate your smash "persona" (just like most of you other guys hate me lol).
So some random advice to keep this post for being 100% drama:
- Don't forget how the tech mechanics works. You can't tech again after for around 40 frames, so for example when you are tech chasing at low percent you can do a down angled ftilt/uair/utilt/dash attack that leads into another guaranteed punish since they can't tech. This also works in situations where you know they've have been pressing L/R, so for punishing wavedashes, and lcancels.
One good trick I use when shielding on platforms is to wait for them to do an aerial and lcancel it, then shield drop uair. Unless they are using light press to Lcancel, they will miss the tech for sure. This gives you a insane form of punishment by using a FJ Dair->Fsmash on their missed tech.
- Practice throwing eggsssss. Eggs aren't really used to their real potential I feel. You can really do some sick **** with eggs, so I advice you guys to go into the lab and try to do every possible strength and angle of the egg toss. Theres over a hundred different ones, and just a single frame of holding down B increases the strength you throw it at by a noticeable margin.
The weakest possible throw is incredible for protecting yourself with while ledge planking for example.
Another really good trick while at the ledge is to throw the egg high and slow, so that it just barely hits the high on the back of their shield. This not only gives it a very high chance of shield poking, but it also makes it bounce on their shield once, and then explode just a second after, locking them in shield stun.
This allows you to easily get a guaranteed jump> egg lay or dj->djcland ->dash grab or you could keep throwing eggs to either shield poke or to hit them as they try to escape from the shield pressure. When one egg hits you should try to follow up with a ledgehop ->nair/uair, dj ->fair/uair or a getup attack. A very sneaky option is to do a reverse egg roll from the ledge as a egg hits them after shielding. The egg roll is very weak, making them touch the floor almost instantly, and gives you a free dsmash since they were just shielding (the same theory could be applied with dj->fair)
Another good tactic with eggs is to throw them while recovering. I haven't seen any other yoshi use this yet, but its really good, especially at higher percents. You could need some practice to not DJ before your up b though, so I'd advice you to practice by getting hit by a level 9 computer and then recovering while throwing eggs.
- FJ bair is your by far best spacing tool, spam it. Preferably with the use of pivots/wavedashes to get more options in how you space it.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Not going to lie, Leffen is right about a lot of things, lol.
Vman, prove yourself at Apex 2013. Tons of people make national brackets and then disappear into obscurity again, but you stand out for your character. Look at Ambix at Apex 2012 for example.
Get 9th or better dude!
Vman, prove yourself at Apex 2013. Tons of people make national brackets and then disappear into obscurity again, but you stand out for your character. Look at Ambix at Apex 2012 for example.
Get 9th or better dude!
Nogzor'z
Smash Journeyman
Yeah Man!
Leffen throwing helpful knowledge that I always seem to forget about.
Eggs Rock!
I'm excited! <3 yoshi players
Leffen throwing helpful knowledge that I always seem to forget about.
Eggs Rock!
I'm excited! <3 yoshi players
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Ask Leffen sincerely for advice and get ignored/smart *** reply. Call Leffen out, and get useful advice. I don't know how Leffen works. It appears beneficial to be *** right back. . .
I've actually attempted to implement every piece of advice every Yoshi has posted in this board, and have a notepad full o the advice (got the idea from Hai I'm Fearless iirc) I don't think it matters who I am. I'm a Yoshi who is still learning, but that doesn't mean I can't call you out on something that looks like B.S. I try to contribute everything I can. I have complained at Vman before, and I like to think I'm relatively impartial to the various players in this board. The only thing I do is try to weight contrasting opinions relative to the success of the player.
There are other good players that Yoshi has beaten, for example Vman beat some names to get into bracket, but from what I heard, it was kind of gimmicky. In one of his major wins, round 3 pools, against WeonX, he got lots of roll -> parries, and after WeonX figured it out, WeonX claimed that he beat Vman handily afterwards.
Everyone's results can be taken many ways. Results only make it hard to tell relative skill levels because differences in time and player availability and variables in the matches.
If you really do have these techniques, I'll be waiting to see them.
I've never used the egg to bounce on their shield, sounds cool. So do the weak follow-ups.
I've never thought of throwing eggs while recovering, sounds awesome!
B-air is an amazing spacing tool, but so are mixups with D-tilt and jabs. I try not to spam anything, because everything can be countered
I've actually attempted to implement every piece of advice every Yoshi has posted in this board, and have a notepad full o the advice (got the idea from Hai I'm Fearless iirc) I don't think it matters who I am. I'm a Yoshi who is still learning, but that doesn't mean I can't call you out on something that looks like B.S. I try to contribute everything I can. I have complained at Vman before, and I like to think I'm relatively impartial to the various players in this board. The only thing I do is try to weight contrasting opinions relative to the success of the player.
There are other good players that Yoshi has beaten, for example Vman beat some names to get into bracket, but from what I heard, it was kind of gimmicky. In one of his major wins, round 3 pools, against WeonX, he got lots of roll -> parries, and after WeonX figured it out, WeonX claimed that he beat Vman handily afterwards.
Everyone's results can be taken many ways. Results only make it hard to tell relative skill levels because differences in time and player availability and variables in the matches.
If you really do have these techniques, I'll be waiting to see them.
I've never used the egg to bounce on their shield, sounds cool. So do the weak follow-ups.
I've never thought of throwing eggs while recovering, sounds awesome!
B-air is an amazing spacing tool, but so are mixups with D-tilt and jabs. I try not to spam anything, because everything can be countered
leffen
Smash Champion
stabbedbyahippie came up to me before round 2 pools started at apex and asked me what to do against Yoshi as falco. As I knew Vmans style is extremely gimmicky I basically told him about it. That he spammed rolls all the time so I told him to grab/shine it, that he should be defensive and just spam utilt/bair because vman usually plays vs axe who just rushes in like a ****** (no offense)
after the double 3 stock he later came and said thanks and that it really helped lol.
i actually thought vman was gonna play roy since he had promised when I was giving advice but oh well lol. as far i know he lost every game anyway in his round 2 pool.
also how are dtilts and jabs even in the same sentence as bair
they are used for completely seperate parts of the game
after the double 3 stock he later came and said thanks and that it really helped lol.
i actually thought vman was gonna play roy since he had promised when I was giving advice but oh well lol. as far i know he lost every game anyway in his round 2 pool.
also how are dtilts and jabs even in the same sentence as bair
they are used for completely seperate parts of the game
I really never thought of throwing eggs while recovering, but I'll give it a go! I've heard of it in Brawl though because it's part of Yoshi's recovery. I'm curious to see how it works in Melee.
I've noticed eggs bouncing on shields before, but it usually seemed kinda random when they'd happen because they just explode sometimes. I should start practicing this. Holding B longer really increases the strength of the egg? I always thought it just made you throw them farther. That's really cool!
Good stuff here, Leffen! Do you plan on going Yoshi at all during Apex?
I've noticed eggs bouncing on shields before, but it usually seemed kinda random when they'd happen because they just explode sometimes. I should start practicing this. Holding B longer really increases the strength of the egg? I always thought it just made you throw them farther. That's really cool!
Good stuff here, Leffen! Do you plan on going Yoshi at all during Apex?