Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[leffen]

No, I've simply played him too little and the NTSC version is too different (read: not too bad)

Also, I want to win the whole tournament, and Fox is really good in ntsc

 

[V3ctorMan]

@Leffen - I understand your perspective GREATLY now... Thanks, I really do appreciate that, and I NEEDED that... I can understand where you think I have the "lowtierhero" mindset/concept... I never did "intend" for it to be looked at that way, but I can understand why you see it that way... Trust me, it was never the goal/purpose... I just wanted to supposedly prove Yoshi's/Roy's viability, and I thought if I used a char, NOT YOSHI.. I wouldn't be legit, as a player, or as a Yoshi player... Don't get it twisted though, I DEFINETELY want to improve as an OVERALL player. (I just don't want to do it the way EVERYONE else does it) I want to find my own "unique way" sort of how I gave Axe's mindset ya know? also... I just never saw it from your perspective.. I fully understand what you mean now.... so thank you..

As for Apex, You are indeed also correct.. I did use some Yoshi... Stabbed in R2, and Blackchris in R1, and another I can't recall atm... I never "intended" or tried to deny, me not using Yoshi, just tried to justify that I used Roy more is all... Again sorry for the misunderstanding... I went 0-8 (I know i've never denied that)

Lastly, I had lost my set vs Eggm, and another player as is, at that point... I knew I wasn't making it to bracket anyway... I'm not saying the result would've been different, cuz IMO, it would've been the same, however, I would've had a more "defensive/play to win type mentality, (I understand this is hard to believe because I'm rarely seen playing that defensive style so I can also understand) rather than do the same ole normal "gimmicky" looking stuff I do, in the long run, I wouldn't have made it... Again, most of you know, Axe, and I like to make "entertaining" looking matches not boring looking ones (yes I understand the boring ones are the ones everyone can/will learn from etc..which is why I said, I COMPLETELY understand Leffen's PoV now, I get it)...

Also, yes indeed, stabbed beat me very badly... it wasn't double 3 stocks tho, I recall double 2 stocks, but it was definetely bad enough, The advice you gave him was "grand" I'm not going to john on anything, because nothing would be justified.. (I.E. I wasn't playing my best, but Stabbed wasn't playing his best.. Im not gonna make excuses... Losses happen...and it was a learning experience for me...

Thanks Leffen, I needed that, on the real, I actually hope to talk to you more now, now that I feel I can talk to you more about stuff.. (I've actually tried to congratulate you on a few tournies, but you don't reply to me/ignore me.. or something

Also, I'll take you up on that MM, if you would like... We have to finish our set from G2 anyway remember?

@Teh Icy - I am going to do my best at Apex... , and again to everyone, I never intended to "fear" away from the "moment"... If you understood my upbringing... I've always had to "prove" something to people, and even after I do it... it meant nothing... just at times, it gets "tiring" proving something over and over again... I understand this is the smash community, and you MUST PROVE YOURSELF CONSISTENTLY, but I've just had IRL problems that involved me proving something for someone to acknowledge my existence... just for it to mean nothing, so perhaps my negative side gets the best of me there...so I do apologize, if it "appeared" I only wanted special treatment etc...

@purple - Again, I never said I DESTROYED weon, or Azen or anything... I simply beat them, (whether or not because they knew the MU, was gimmicky, whichever... remember when Axe hit the scene and beat Jman? noone said oh, "axe was gimmicky" it was obviously a MU, Jman didn't know.. but it didn't take away from his win either, so why is mine? again I don't understand... Also Weon DESTROYED my falco game 2... game 3 I went Yoshi, as with Game 1, and I was the victor.. simple as that.. As for Weon playing me afterwards? We played no games after that (besides random friendlies) Weon DID NOT play his best at all this tourney... I went and played and got bodied by Kirbykaze afterwards for a GOOD WHILE.. )

Thanks again, Im glad you opened up and said what you wanted/needed to say, now I understand why this concept of me, has taken place...

Thanks Leffen, Angel, Purple, everyone.... anyone, that's helped me understand... I WILL contribute more than I EVER have been before, and hope to help put Yoshi the right step forward..

 

[Silent Wolf]

leffen is my favorite poster lmao

 

[Kimimaru]

I'm starting to think the Fox matchup is just a slight advantage for Fox rather than a significant one. The Fox matchup just seems so much easier to me than many others, maybe because of my experience in it. Anyway, here are some reasons:

-Fox loses his shinespike against Yoshi's recovery
-Both can combo and punish each other pretty hard
-Both can kill each other well: Yoshi's D-smash kills Fox at the edge at ~70% and Fox's U-smash kills yoshi at around 90% on most stages.
-Yoshi's defense through parrying/superarmor can make it hard for Fox to approach without getting counterattacked
-Fox's speed can make it hard for Yoshi to get a hit in
-Fox doesn't get much from a grab on Yoshi if the Yoshi player can SDI the U-throw/U-air first hit
-Yoshi can always get something out of D-throw, and at a certain percent range, U-throw -> D-smash can be a finisher
-Yoshi's Egg Lay can bait/counter shield grabs, and if Yoshi grabs Fox with it off the edge Fox is forced to recover

I think the biggest thing that makes it a slight advantage for Fox is the fact that he has a quick grab while Yoshi has one of the slowest grabs in the game.

 

[Purpletuce]

Fox beat Yoshi with his huge speed and maneuverability, and his ability to shield pressure or shine-grab gives him punishes on Yoshis shield, as well as Fox generally having much more priority, hitbox sizes and duration(Fox can be a little sloppier with his huge windows, where most of Yoshis hits last 2 frames). Fox also has many more options, noteably for approaches and recovery.

^All of those matter more than Yoshis advantages.

Although I feel like it is one of Yoshis better MUs, compared to Sheik Peach and Falco.

 

[Jackio]

I hate you purpletuce

you just get everything wrong dont you


-leffen

 

[Kimimaru]

I'm not saying Fox doesn't beat Yoshi; I'm saying I think the MU slightly leans more towards even than the common perception. I'm not sure what you mean about hitbox sizes, since most of Yoshi's attacks have good range (look at U-air especially), but you're right about duration. Yoshi can usually lightshield any pressure he sees coming (and if he doesn't he has more time than other characters to get out of the pressure because his shield doesn't shrink in size, thus making his shield drops better), and shine grab is less likely to work on him since his shield doesn't suffer any hitstun. Fox can't just do Fox stuff against Yoshi and win because it just doesn't work (assuming players of almost equal skill). The Fox player has to approach and react differently in this MU than most other MUs.

 

[Pakman]

I want to make a short (less than 2 minutes) yoshi tips and tricks video for Prog's project. What other stuff can I told about?

I was thinking
Double jump canceling
Run off and double jump edgeguard
Double jump can turn you around in mid air
up+b edge cancel -> ledge hog
cutting double jump short to grab ledge with up b
ledge egging
Juggernaut frames
Light shielding
down b knock back aerial versus grounded

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, I know, I just thought I would put what I thought. Do you agree with the points? I know you don't think it is in Yoshi's favor. What inspired the idea that it is closer to even?

Also, Jackio, what was the context of that? Sounds fun.

What is prog's project? Are you going for cool things or necessary things or what?

 

[Mind Trick]

I hate you purpletuce

you just get everything wrong dont you


-leffen

this made me lol

@Pakman
add parry, countering with djc, instant landing on platforms with dj, different egg strengths/trajectories and perhaps shielddrop as an answer to trapped in the shield (might be too general) and weird properties of bouncing eggroll
also pullback on fsmash and invincibility on upsmash might be something a lot of people don't really know about, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for (same for followups on moves)

@Kimi
agree with most said, but not sure what you mean with the quicker grab
if you mean shieldgrab that should never be an option against fox with most chars anyway

 

[Pakman]

Yeah, I know, I just thought I would put what I thought. Do you agree with the points? I know you don't think it is in Yoshi's favor. What inspired the idea that it is closer to even?

Also, Jackio, what was the context of that? Sounds fun.

What is prog's project? Are you going for cool things or necessary things or what?

Prog is trying to put together a series of short videos that showcase our community to new players in various ways. These videos would be played during down time on streams. The videos could include things like Pro Player histories, exciting match synopsis, and short How-To videos.

I want to get a low tier series of videos targeting new players and non smashers.

this made me lol

@Pakman
add parry, countering with djc, instant landing on platforms with dj, different egg strengths/trajectories and perhaps shielddrop as an answer to trapped in the shield (might be too general) and weird properties of bouncing eggroll
also pullback on fsmash and invincibility on upsmash might be something a lot of people don't really know about, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for (same for followups on moves)

Thanks for the input, there is some very useful stuff.

I want to make this very accessible and short. I can definitely use parry and the pullback on smash attacks, but I don't want to get super technical with certain things whose usefulness isn't apparent to a non smasher. I will probably get segments for each of these and create short clips for each one.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Purpletuce]

Yeah, Mind Trick has got it down. You can also just browse some of Leffen of Vmans videos for some flashy Yoshi things.

 

[Kimimaru]

Mind Trick, I meant the fact that Fox has a quick grab than Yoshi. If Yoshi's wasn't so slow it'd be easier to get grabs off Fox. Also Pakman, be sure to add in a clip of Yoshi lightshielding attacks to show how far he slides .

 

[Mind Trick]

Mind Trick, I meant the fact that Fox has a quick grab than Yoshi. If Yoshi's wasn't so slow it'd be easier to get grabs off Fox.

Ok, I wasn't sure as one of your main points was that Fox doesn't get much off a grab, and the grab would be the main reason it would be an advantage for Fox. I don't think Yoshi's dash grab is that bad, you can get it off pretty fast and it has a lot of good followups, only really hate the finicky spacing that sometimes makes you miss if you're too close.

I think the main reason why Fox beats anyone is his speed/dashdance game, which makes him able to punish just about everything, but no player plays perfect games, so you just have to make your openings count.

 

[Purpletuce]

So my tourney wasn't the best, didn't make it out of pools. Pools were hard and early, Ka-Master, one of the best Luigis who went last hit with SW didn't make it out :\ My seed required me to either beat a guy named Vish (who nearly took out Eggz in bracket) or another really good guy (who went last hit with Vish). Against the other guy, a Falco player, I won the first stock then nearly took his second when I still had 4, then I died, then SDed at low %, and I think I just choked from there on out. Oh yeah, I only did the tourney on like 3 hours of sleep, I was hung over and drove 3 hours to get there right before the tourney. Jhons are kinda dumb, and to be honest, I probably wouldn't have made it out of pools anyway.

I had lots of fun though, and in friendlies/MMs I did all kinds of good things. There were lots of non-sober events happening, and some silly stuff went on there. I pretty much played for Thursday-Monday and now I'm good on Melee for a while.

The most disappointing thing is I kept on getting behind a little, then going scrub-mode and forcing D-smash. Oh well.

Note: This was supposed to be like a state tourney but ended up almost like a regional, had players from Canada, Washington, Oregon and Idaho there.

Next week is a state tourney in Oregon that I'll hopefully do better in.

 

[leffen]

well i guess vectorman getting out of pools really was an achievement after all >_<




to keep every one of your posts from being nonconstructive can you please write something that doesnt make your last post look like a status update, because i don't think anyone is interested in reading your diary.

i guess you'd like to think that you're special enough that we'd want to, just like everyone els , but guess what, you're not.

 

[Kimimaru]

I can see how you think that leffen, but I don't think that's the case. Us Yoshi players are a small, close group for the most part and like to know how well one another is playing. I do agree that Purpletuce should've posted what he learned from the tournament, though.

 

[t3h Icy]

Yoshi needs a player with Kage mentality.

 

[Purpletuce]

I would think that you would appreciate the update, it gives you material to be sassy with. We all know how much you like being sassy. . .

I'm down to put some things that I wrote down (these may or may not help anyone, and may be reminders to myself for things I'm trying to implement that other players suggested. I'm not trying to steal anyone's style )

After a B-air approach, I should be conscious of they're percent to know if I should use F-tilt for combos, or D-smash to get my opponent offstage, as well as knowing when I might have to techchase off of it.

B-airing an opponents shield then fading out to bait a shieldgrab -> F-smash works well on grab-happy players like Sheiks

Backwards D-smash for shield pressure is awkward, but effective. I'm trying to implement it more. . .(Leffen said something about this?)

Immediately before your opponent hits the floor preceding a tech chase, throwing an egg high and behind you to cover the tech behind you, but I would only do it if you have plenty of time. People never seem to expect it. . . I'm going to try to look into this more, it might be really limiting and bad.

Edgeguarding from ledge by dropping low then rising N-air (keeping momentum to not SD) seems to cover many options.

Simply releasing your shield against some laggy moves is good against pressure since Yoshi doesn't have shield stun. For example, when a Gannon randomly stomped my shield, I would just release the shield. They might have had to miss an L-cancel for it,or hit high, but sometimes I would D-smash them after. I'll look into frames later. . . Definitely works against slower things like some smashes or Link's Great Spin though.

when an opponent missed a tech, sometimes I would jump over them to bait a getup attack then turnaround DJ -> N-air -> FF. I would also use this in other situations with some good results. It seemed decently safe. I think Angel said something about this.

Whenever my opponent had invincibility, I found that the Side-B from the ledge is decent to avoid them, like on FD when you don't have platforms and you're playing with somebody with range like Marth or Gannon.

That's all I can think of now. . . might add more later.

 

[leffen]

It's not that I like being sassy, its just that it ****ing helps.

And your post proves it.

 

[Purpletuce]

And when i was sassy. . . you posted useful things as well. . . sassiness develops Yoshi. I'm down. I will try to post some more notes soon then, I have a notebook with 2 other pages in it. . .

Notes(again, may contain stuff from other Yoshis, tried to cite where I think I first saw it, and some of it may be useless to others):

I messed around in physics class and decided Yoshi's instant ledgegrab is advantageous if: { 2 x (Percent chance you think the enemy will go high) x (The chance of kill/hits/etc from successful read of opponent going high) > 1} I was reallly bored.

runaway -> DJC turnaround F-air to respond to whiffed attacks(vman)

Dash attack to cover spacies going for ledge, coming up from ledge or side-b to above ledge. Dash attack is awesome for edgeguards (Leffen)

Use F-tilt as an anti-air (Leffen)

Fulljump D-air against enemies above on platoforms

Pressure shields with DJC N-airs and shieldpoke with D-smashes

Don't be obvious with shield drops just because they're awesome

Edgeguard with ECE (Vman)

Use Down-B on getup attacks(Vman)

Some tech data I wrote down:

most chars tech/getup options in terms of speed: N tech ~26 frame > N getup ~30 frames > regular roll ~35 frames > tech roll ~40 frames > getup attack ~49 frames (attacking as early as frame 17) (from Magus)

reverse D-smash on shield gives enemy 5 frames between and 20 frames after to escape, enemy WD grab takes 21 frames if perfect.

Use U-smash on some aerials (Angel)

Avoid CGs by platform camping/edgecamp

Decide(commit) to place eggs on either where you think your opponent will go (to try to hit them) or where you don't want them ( as in right in front of you to stop them from running up, or 45deg up from you where Sheik would go to needle. )

mixup edge-eggs: land onstage -> egg off, jump high over ledge(possibly reversed?), DJ -> egg toss for maneuverability, WD egg toss

Hit low on shields for better frame advantage.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Reading your notes makes me feel like playing melee, which is good. And those notes are still a brilliant idea.

Just thinking here for a second. Someone brought up eggs bouncing on shields and how they sometimes don't do so. Does anyone know why this happens, if its actually the case. (I would check to make sure but don't have access to a GC.

Yoshi needs a player with Kage mentality.

Yoshi WANTS more players, in general.

 

[Purpletuce]

Leffen brought up the eggs in shield bouncing, I noticed it often at the tourney, and I never got it to bounce so it hit the shield twice. . . :\

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If it's anything like Ice Climber's multi-hit-on-shield-ice-block, the spacing will be very tight.

 

[Kimimaru]

I've also noticed that eggs can hit the same person twice sometimes, but I'm not sure why or how this happens. It usually happens in teams when I throw an egg and it hits the other three players. This is also weird because the second hit is significantly weaker than the first, and Yoshi's eggs do not normally do so little damage.

 

[Nogzor'z]

I'd mainly like to know because a softly thrown egg that bounces on top of an opponent's shield (probably only two times), and then pops, provides interesting shield pressure.

 

[Kimimaru]

I meant hit as in actually hurting the player again (not bouncing off shield) as if there was another hitbox for the egg. It's really strange.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Ahh, yes that poses an interesting question then.

 

[Purpletuce]

The only thing I can think of is you're phantom hitting as you whiff them then you're actually hitting with the eggplosion afterwards, the first hit (phantom hit) should be 50% of the damage but no knockback.

Also, last tournament didn't get recorded at all, which sucks. This next one really should, since the guy with the recording setup is like 10 minutes from the venue. >.<

Weird question: does anyone use the aerial land ledgestall? It seems like it would be very versatile and I want to learn it, but it seems awkward and easy to mess up. I've only messed around with it for a while now. . . Down-B is definitely the easiest when you're not under pressure, but I wouldn't try it with an enemy near or trying it frame perfect. . .

 

[Nogzor'z]

aerial land edgestall... Hmm I'm not sure what you're getting at. Wanna elaborate?

On the topic of ledgestalling, I've started to use edgedrop > DJ > waveland back onto edge as a means of repeated edgehogging. It's pretty fun to do.

 

[Purpletuce]

That's another one I was looking at but it looks easier to SD with. . . Drop off the ledge, jump onto the stage, and perform the aerial land (hit A/R while in DJ to land while right on to stage) then runoff and regrab.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Ahh, I see now. Don't think I use that method very much. It used to get in the way when I'd be coming up with an aerial but I've gotten used to the timing to not do so.

It can be easy to SD with the DJ > waveland back but I find it pretty smooth looking and not expected (especially from a yoshi).

 

[Purpletuce]

I might try to learn that, it does look the coolest, but it is scary, especially on YS. . . for now I don't really use either, but they're both 100% invulnerable . . .

 

[Kimimaru]

I've experimented with the waveland ledgestall a bit and I'd agree that it's tougher to do on Yoshi's Story. I should really look into the aerial land one.

 

[Purpletuce]

Ok guys, I'm going to the tourney on Saturday, and a smashfest tonight, both will hopefully be on stream, I will try to stay well rested, and I'll stay sober. I'm going to try to do my best. Tonight probably won't be until 7ish, no clue about the tourney. Here is the stream link. I should be there about 3-4 hours after this post is made.

http://www.twitch.tv/alienallen90

 

[Kimimaru]

I'd watch if I wasn't flying back to the east coast in an hour. Tomorrow let me know the times you pop up on the stream and I'll watch your Yoshi.

 

[Mind Trick]

Ok guys, I'm going to the tourney on Saturday, and a smashfest tonight, both will hopefully be on stream, I will try to stay well rested, and I'll stay sober. I'm going to try to do my best. Tonight probably won't be until 7ish, no clue about the tourney. Here is the stream link. I should be there about 3-4 hours after this post is made.

http://www.twitch.tv/alienallen90

I watched some of your matches, if you want I can provide with some cc.

 

[Purpletuce]

More on the matches where I did decent, the matches where I got behind a little and tried to cc D-smash everything and tech in place every time was me choking and that was horrible. Two of those matches were some of the worst I've played in a long time. . . Also just skimming over it, I put myself in shield may too much. . . All advice welcome, but I know I can do better than that, sorry guys.

 

[Kimimaru]

Do you come up around the end of the stream? The biggest piece of advice I can give is to move around more and become faster overall. In many cases I was able to predict what you'd do next (ex. B-air approach). Waveland and move around like crazy (while still doing what you need to do of course) so the opponent has a harder time reading your movements. Also a big thing with Fox that I noticed you didn't do is punish his shine with N-air when he uses it on your DJ.

 

[Purpletuce]

So I played on the same stream again, and at least looked competent, still messed up on some stuff, but feedback would be appreciated.