Ask VMan about Yoshi Thread (A General Yoshi Discussion)

[V3ctorMan]

Vectorman,
are you simply pivot edgehogging? how do you grab the edge when running off w/o shooting a egg.

also, Yoshi lays eggz, are all yoshi's girls?

Also, Do you always double jump before you waveland? do you ever just single jump from the ground and waveland? seems you double jump almost everytime before you waveland a platform. Is it just to cover the possibility you might get hit while jumping so you're not interrupted? Just feels like a normal jump waveland is faster than doing a really quick double jump to waveland.

Also do you know any tricks that you could do if your opponent is trabbed in a egg? because I know you can hit them while they are in it. but when they pop out of it is there nothing you can do to start a string of combos? Like taking advantage of their vulnerability after escaping ur egg. (Assuming there is any vulnerability)

if you run off the edge, then reverse double jump, you will instantly grab the edge. Considering your near invulnerability during your double jump, and your invincibility of grabbing the edge, you can actually edgehog an opponent extremely well using this technique. "guide" ^^

I mostly DJ, waveland, because i'm smoother, and less likely to mess up.. also, as you've stated, if my opponent throws out a move, and I can absorb it, and trade with a move i'm willing to trade with... then that as well.. This also keeps my movement looking fluid to keep my opponent guessing.

I do like the neutral B rather alot actually, it has so much less lag than the grab, and can be useful in multiple scenarios... I've never actually attempted to try and combo out of the egg hatch, because all the players i've played, escape rather quickly for me to initially follow up...on top of that it "seems" and I could be wrong but it looks like there's a tiny bit of invulnerability right when they come out of the egg, ... only successful experience i've had with this is if the opponent, mashes too much, and incidentally does a move that I can punish, but i've never initially tried to punish the immediate egg escape. i usually use to re-set up.. and use it from the edge..

I remember a long time ago, reading something about how Yoshi supposedly doesn't even have a gender... or something, but honestly I couldn't tell you.. You'd think it'd be a girl, but I jus dont think so..


Hope this all helps ^^

@krazy, yeah man, rep some Yoshi, I'll do my best and yeah rep some Yoshi! ^^

 

[Taj278]

There is a Tucson tourney on the 31st, Vman.

 

[Zone]

Lol I would just say I like to dj waveland because the noise yoshi makes is too good to hear spammed. Thanks for the response all that's left for me is exp

 

[ChivalRuse]

How useful is pivot fsmash? I can do it about 80% consistently.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Hey everyone, i went to that Tucson tournament and actually played ALL Yoshi, thru pools, tourney etc.. all the way through, and i'm sorry but I let everybody down... =/ I had to play sheik in the first round! ^^ and then I had to play peach in losers right after.. =/ I lost both sets... they should be up on youtube very soon... and when they do i'll let everyone know... Don't worry, i'll still rep the Yoshi, well I hope too..

I promise! <3

Btw.. sheik, and dthrow are really mean... and peach on yoshi.. is just OUCH..

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm not let down. I still have faith in you! <333

 

[Mind Trick]

I'm so glad I get to experience PAL downthrow :D

Work on your Peach game though! It's definitely not as bad as sheik, fox or falco...

 

[leffen]

uair hitbox says hi.

btw gj on using yoshi in tourney, success will come in time :D

 

[V3ctorMan]

I'd much rather fight a Fox, rather than a Peach, with the current playstyle I have... I'm too aggressive... and try to play too flashy... *sigh* I know this, and it's hard to habit break...but I believe i'm able to pull this style off while maintaining the MU... so next time.. i'll play alot wiser, and not play as aggressive..

and yeah I agree... I wish I had PAL... i'd have a much easier time playing vs Sheik

 

[Mind Trick]

I wouldn't say easy lol but definitely more manageable.

Defensive play is much more efficient against peach.
Pullback from fsmash is really good when pivoted against fc stuff. Eggs go through turnips. The only time you can go aggressive really is from techchasing, or if you get a good spaced fair or something on her shield. From neutral position it's really risky to use DJC because of her disjointed nair and dsmash mostly.

So just be patient, play a defensive game and go crazy when you get a launcher or something.

 

[leffen]

Some frame data stuff i just tested using TAS, discuss ( ill throw out my own stuff later )


Nair
Hitlag:7
Shield Stun:8
Landing lag :7
Advantage:+1

Perfect DJC nair
1 Jump starts
2
3
4
5
6 Airborne ( Jumping here makes you land )
7 Double Jump starts
8 Nair starts
9
10
11 Nair hits, Hitlag
12
13
14
15
16
17 Hitlag ends, Fastfall
19 Yoshi lands, landing lag ( Shield stun )
20
21
22
23
24
25 Lag ends
26
27 Shieldstun ends
28
29
30



Uair

Hitlag: 7
Shield Stun: 8
Landing lag : 9
Advantage -1

Bair ( strong hit )

Hitlag: 5
Shield stun : 5
Landing lag : 7
Advantage: -2

Fair
Hitlag: 8
Shield Stun : 9
Landing Lag: 10

Jab
Hitlag : 4
Shield Stun: 3
Ends : 8 ( jab 2 starts, hit 12) else 17
Disadvantage : 6-4 depending on when it hits using jab 2 , else 11-13

Jab 2
Hitlag : 4
Shield Stun: 5
Advantage: 16-14


Egg Stall:
Total invicibilty: 38
Lag after grab the edge: 7
Double jump : 9
Grabs edge on frame 39
1 frame not invicible

Invincible all of double jump -> waveland onto stage with 1 or 2 frames after lag.

already at frame 1 will he start to move a large portion of his body backwards ( mostly finished at frame 3 )
http://i32.tinypic.com/25sl7ic.gif
You can drop from the edge and use bair and still get to the edge ( doesnt really require you to be that frame perfect if you use airdodge and stage )

 

[V3ctorMan]

OMG! *takes notes* Thanks for the infro! <3

 

[Mind Trick]

(Provide VMan with information about Yoshi Thread)

lol

 

[Shiri]

LOL!

 

[V3ctorMan]

Lol Shiri... I love you soo much <33

Lol Mind Trick.. You know I love you too right?!?!? hehe <33333333333333

I love everybody! ^^ I just REALLY wanna push Yoshi's game where many have stopped...and I have faith that I can do it too.. ^^ I may have to change a style to play a certain MU, but I really think I can achieve it and accomplish..and it'll be my motivation!

<33 thanks again all Yoshi players and supporters who've helped me etc... You guys are all too awesome <33

 

[Mind Trick]

I know Vman, don't take it the wrong way, I really admire your dedication and enthusiasm for this character.

However, I still think the title of this thread and especially Taj's post is a bit much, when Shiri, Moo and myself among others (perhaps?) are probably still a bit more experienced in many of Yoshi's aspects.

I watched those vids against Okami and Silly Kyle and your aggressive flashy style is really hurting you a lot. I can't count how many times you got punished for wavelanding to djc something. Once an opponent figures out Yoshi's unorthodox movement, it can become really predictable and against high/top tiers interception resulting in the loss of your double jump isn't that hard. Definitely try to play a more patient game, it will help your Yoshi a lot (I'm not sure if the Sheik MU is worth learning though, looks near impossible).

 

[leffen]

imo yoshi needs to use his speed in some matchups, i mean except spacies / CF hes basicly faster or as fast as everyone else.
He also have one of the best shield pressure in the game ( ill go over that later ) and and in some matchups you just cant afford being defensive ( CF, Falco for example ). Though , his dash dance game is amazing , esp including all his Reverse DJC and hes also good at defeating other dash dance games. He can easily overshoot with a djc fair , dash attack, running grab, can cc almost any move that people use out of dash dances ( fox nair, shieks dash attack, etc etc ) can easily bait grabs with fsmash, etc etc.

Because of this great dash dance game you want to play passive alot in many matchups, and then when you get that aerial on shield ( all yoshis aerials are 100% unpunishable ón shield if you just dash away )then you start to go offensive.

Im honestly not gonna play defensive, waiting and ccing and blabla all the time, even if that is seen as the best possible playstyle by some, that isnt why i play yoshi.


By the way, what do you guys cp? I dont really prefer any neutral at this points , except maybe BF vs spacies ( lol dtilt ) though im pretty sure mute city is yoshis best stage in nearly all of his matchups, except peach and puff probably ( samus maybe? ). Since that stage is banned at some tourneys ( not in sweden though ) im thinking rainbow cruise / kongo jungle vs slower characters and Brinstar for spacies.

What do you guys cp ;D?

 

[ChivalRuse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZwg37tu6B0#t=0m22s

If Yoshi continuously buffers rolls, is it impossible to hit him? According to SDM's frame data, Yoshi's roll is 34 frames, and he has invincibility on frames 1-34 ...

 

[V3ctorMan]

Yeah, atm I'm hitting a "wall" with MU's such as Peach/Sheik, HOWEVER...I still believe it's attainable... MOST if not all my experience with Yoshi...have been against premier players... Axe, Taj, and many of AZ's finest players...my specific style plays them VERY well, not to mention my over-aggressiveness actually helps in the MU' (of course, because of the characters they play) but also because they haven't seen it before.

Now i'm learning to adapt to the slower, patient, defense-orientated style of play vs characters such as sheik/Peach, and lol let's just say I'M COMPLETELY NOT USED to it... lol but I tell you, i'm trying... I'm trying REAL HARD! <33 but of course this specific playstyle is new to me...

It's rough, but I'll easily say my Peach/Sheik MU knowledge is HORRENDOUS... I've played against Taj, Axe, Jetfour, and all of AZ's best players, and have had very much success, in all of my matchups with them... My Yoshi's getting alot of hype because of the players it's beating....and to my surprise too... not to mention it's supposedly a "Bad" character, so I guess you could say I'm overhyping Yoshi as well, but it's all in good purpose.. n_n

Either way, My goal(s) remain the same... I've hit this EXACT wall im at right now with Mewtwo, that I am with Yoshi, and I've surpassed it... so this challenge shouldn't be any different... I sorta can't believe I left this.. ------>

o_o; but Yoshi's too good!

 

[rel12]

Nice yoshi!!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tricks and fancy stuff can bad vs Peach and Sheik because one has high-impact moves with like THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS much priority and the other can auto-death combo you like it's the only thing to do with a grab. It's hard to space perfectly and keep your proper positioning when you're spazzing over the stage with technical power.

IMO you should focus on slowing down. Gotta stay properly spaced and figure out how to get them above you. If they're above you, they have to come down. And then you can pelt them with tricks and stupid low tier nonsense until they explode. But until then, you gotta, gotta, gotta be safe.

 

[V3ctorMan]

Lol KirbyKaze, you're freaking awwwwwwwwwwwsum! You've no idea! lol.. Yeah, I played Axe's Peach (which is very good btw) lol, for a very graduate amount of time the last couple of days learning the MU.. It probably took me at least an hour to stop the movements.. of being over aggressive...

Now i'm leaning towards the "baiting" maneuvers to see how that fairs out... I honestly don't "expect" to win all of these bouts against said character, but.. I believe the MU is more attainable IMO, than what people seem to give it credit for. n_n

 

[KirbyKaze]

Moving around is good. I think you should be trying to outmanuever Peach and reset positioning using your greater speed. I mean, everyone else does it vs her, I can't see how it would be bad to do that with Yoshi.

It's also occurred to me that Peach and Sheik are characters with somewhat limited range and/or aerial mobility compared to ones like Ganon, Jigglypuff (not her one the whole but her Bair), and Marth. I know Sheik definitely has to aim her aerials sort of meticulously because she doesn't really move much when she goes airborne; she's almost stationary. I'm sure you have some stuff you could use to take advantage of her needing to aim her aerials at where you are. Don't you have one of those funny pull-back F-smashes or something? Or U-smash?

I'm sorry if I'm kind of vague. I don't really know this character too well, just what annoys me when I've played against him...

 

[V3ctorMan]

Lol, yeah, I've got em both.. I don't use F-smash very often, and am trying to implement into my playstyle...having a bit of a struggle actually...but it's getting added... for the most part..

As for U-smash, I actually use this move, a pretty good amount, but for some reason, like all the videos I have.. I don't use it once XD

on top of that... I don't exactly know what I can/cannot challenge w/those moves, since i'm used to losing a trade battle... I've assumed that I'll lose ALL trade battles.. lol so I usually just try to outmaneuver everything she throws at me... but for the most part it's what I do..

and naw you're not vague.. lol

 

[Cosmo!]

i watched your matches against that peach, it looked like you were assuming he would sit there in his shield and let you apply pressure, and instead he dash attacked you or naired you or waited for you to commit to something and then hit you.

i think you should focus more on what your opponent's situation is and what realistically are his best options, so that you may realize the best choice to counter that. instead of "going all out."

you were playing way too haphazardly

 

[V3ctorMan]

I completely agree... I had a bit of "idk what you'd call this" ----> the peach player I've played, i've played multiple times... and the style i've played...worked well in our previous encounters... so I assumed I knew his playstyle per se....

I completely agree with your statement tho Cosmo, I guess I never really thought about that... that's a good idea to revolve around...

Edit: oh snaps you're from IL?? lol i'll be visiting there sometime, maybe i could play some Zelda practice that i've no knowledge on LOL! <3 cosmo

EDIT: Or should I go back to this ---------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdByVO57VY

 

[Shiri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZwg37tu6B0#t=0m22s

If Yoshi continuously buffers rolls, is it impossible to hit him? According to SDM's frame data, Yoshi's roll is 34 frames, and he has invincibility on frames 1-34 ...

Yoshi visibly drops his eggshell on the frames where he's vulnerable.

He has an average amount of vulnerability compared to everyone else, but his vulnerability frames are displaced, so you just punish the roll with different timing (mostly) than you would with other characters.

 

[AXE 09]

Vman, I have a very serious question for you.

How are you always right about everything?

 

[Lordydennek]

anyone ever play mewtwo vs yoshi? got a mm coming up. ADVICEEEE MEEEEE

BTW upsmash has great priority. it trades or cancels most moves...in fact...i dont see it getting beat very much or at all >>

 

[V3ctorMan]

Vman, I have a very serious question for you.

How are you always right about everything?

LOL, you must be referring to your Pikachu, and my thoughts on it multiple years ago, when I got insulted by many people that I was STUPID for saying you had the best Pika... funny many of those people who thought I was wrong are now supposedly like "I new you were the best Pika Axe, and I knew you'd get top 5.. etc.. I could go on for days...many other scenarios too... Actually though, I'm usually only right, because I have alot of faith in you... I've seen you grow.. ever since we started training together, when I started doing simple things such as teaching you specs about Falco.. lol.. IMO, your drive/determination is UNMATCHED by any player right now, so that pushes you to limits not yet seen.. this is my opinion. , and I think you'll be if not already top 10 players "worldwide" <---- this is MY opinion, so I don't need everyone else saying.. "Vman you're dumb for thinking Axe is top 10 material etc... IT'S MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it, and i'm sticking to it.

You're amazing jeff. I mean it. <3

anyone ever play mewtwo vs yoshi? got a mm coming up. ADVICEEEE MEEEEE

BTW upsmash has great priority. it trades or cancels most moves...in fact...i dont see it getting beat very much or at all >>

Oh wow, and Yes I have played Yoshi on Mewtwo (Taj's) man it's rough!.. it's real rough... Mewtwo can out run you all day... He can SB spam to force your position(s) to stop the baby shadowballs I actually recommend "absorbing" them, or i suppose you can use the platforms to work around them.

My toughest challenges was when to/when not to challenge Mewtwo's Nair.. Taj got me in many uncomfortable positions and punished me severely and the slightest of errors. Yoshi falls into some combos of Mewtwo as well, if you don't utilize proper CC, spacing, etc...

I like all the tilts in this MU, and agreed Yoshi's smashes have astounding priority "specially in this MU" so another good thing to like.. I'd recomment baiting with some spammed Bairs to make Mewtwo second guess if they can challenge it, since if you miss Mewtwo can't punish you too severely...IMO, Yoshi has better shield pressure on Yoshi, but lol Taj and I prolly have different views on this.. XD (then again Taj's Mewtwo shield pressure is pretty solid- DJC, Fair,DJCNair, Dtilt, repeat = scary) so I can't blame him.

Try to keep Mewtwo above you, Yoshi has so many more options when Mewtwo is above him, and will be a large factor in this MU, egg spam, bairs, proper Fairs... and Dairs while Mewtwo is on platforms, or above you will lead to satisfying results...

It's a bit of a pain (this MU) depending on the style of the Mewtwo player you'll be playing against, but overall it's a very fun MU. and I think you'll enjoy it too

I do indeed very much so enjoy this MU.. I've just yet to be successful with it, cuz Taj's Mewtwo is on a different planet.. XD but i'm workin on it. =p

Hope this all helps! ^^ these are my views... I'm sure Mind Trick, Shiri, and others have their thoughts too so don't be afraid to ask them either! n_n so yeah good luck to you! ^^

 

[Lordydennek]

Thanks a bunch. ive never played it myself. i can see were SB spam would hurt. ill take him to small stages if i can. ya i can see where eggs would ****. would i be killing him up? with uairs and usmashes? that seems the most viable. M2s recovery is really great to the side. ill try to avoid fd. umm. ok. i think i have an idea of how to play this.

 

[leffen]

Sup guys :D
What do you think about the puff matchup? I honestly think its even or maybe in Yoshis favor ( with KJ64 on and PAL ).
Tbh i just use eggs , eggs stalling at edge ( almost impossible to beat for puff ) CC for anything not bair / fullt spacied, Dj cc and ( pivoted ) fsmash vs bair. Usmash and dashattack are also very nice.

On matchup ratio :sure, puff wins the spacing Game by a little, but he has almost no combos ( his restcombos at 0% doesnt kill and are rare, esp considering utilt ala hungrybox doesnt work vs lightshielding bair pressure, and getting the edge is good cuz of eggs ) and ( fair -> fair tech chase -> u/f/n/bair is an easy 50% )
and puff dies off f/usmash at ~70% and yoshi dies at 150%+

and KJ64 is like 75-25 in yoshis favor, jiggs has NO way of ever catching a platform camping yoshi

 

[V3ctorMan]

hey guys I got three more vs Axe... Hope you all like! ^^

Vs Axe Falco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvvYeR6sJ6Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSNtpGIaYRM

Vs Axe Pikachu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ700wfBWoA

Comment, critique, insult XD, lol you know the drill..

I'm trying to be less aggressive, and I have like a teeny tiny bit...but playin defensive just might not be my thing.... I'm gonna see if I can develop a way where I can keep my aggressiveness combined with making smart choices etc.. ^^

Allrite thanks everyone! <3

 

[Lordydennek]

not bad at all vman. not many smashes tho. at all. seemed like you were concentrating on that nair a lot. and ftilt. which are great. i saw some opportunities to slow down and space some smashes. tbh ppl will just run into those things

 

[ChivalRuse]

I love Yoshi's bair!

 

[Shiri]

Sup guys :D
What do you think about the puff matchup? I honestly think its even or maybe in Yoshis favor ( with KJ64 on and PAL ).
Tbh i just use eggs , eggs stalling at edge ( almost impossible to beat for puff ) CC for anything not bair / fullt spacied, Dj cc and ( pivoted ) fsmash vs bair. Usmash and dashattack are also very nice.

On matchup ratio :sure, puff wins the spacing Game by a little, but he has almost no combos ( his restcombos at 0% doesnt kill and are rare, esp considering utilt ala hungrybox doesnt work vs lightshielding bair pressure, and getting the edge is good cuz of eggs ) and ( fair -> fair tech chase -> u/f/n/bair is an easy 50% )
and puff dies off f/usmash at ~70% and yoshi dies at 150%+

and KJ64 is like 75-25 in yoshis favor, jiggs has NO way of ever catching a platform camping yoshi

A slow Yoshi with a well-rounded defense makes this matchup not so bad.

I think Jigglypuff still wins, but it's not even that bad. It's very playable.

 

[The Star King]

I'm trying to be less aggressive, and I have like a teeny tiny bit...but playin defensive just might not be my thing.... I'm gonna see if I can develop a way where I can keep my aggressiveness combined with making smart choices etc.. ^^

I think being aggresive is good vs. other offensive characters such as spacies, since if you try being defensive they are just going to overwhelm you... A defensive style is more suited vs. characters such as Sheik IMO, where one mistake can mean death.

 

[Mind Trick]

Jiggs and Marth are my favorite matchups as Yoshi. For the rest I'm sad to say I don't even bother with Yoshi anymore in tournament.

I did however get 2nd seed in my pool at the last big euro tournament, almost taking 1st seed from Makenshi, going Yoshi against his marth (one of the best in europe). Won first match on FD, got 2stocked on YS (I banned FoD), then lost the last one on PS (he banned DL64), high % last stock for both, choked a bit :/

Did most of my pool with fox though, so much easier :/

 

[ChivalRuse]

Is the distance that Yoshi slides when his light shield is hit by an attack proportional to how light of a shield you use?

Seems extremely intuitive, but still I want to know.

 

[LittleFumi]

anyone yoshi´s close to sandiego? i will money match anyone close in a yoshi ditto