"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[felipe_9595]

What should I do against a campy Diddy Kong? The player spaced his bananas and peanut gun pretty well and whenever I finally got through those he'd have an opportunity to go in on me, so how should I deal with Diddy's bananas+gun?

Wavedash into them, you can effectively nullify and counter his game with a well placed Wavedash into item -> Glide Toss, it leads into grabs and more stuff.

 

[Paper Maribro]

So we have discussed the bad matchups quite a bit, but who do we destroy/beat?

 

[Deleted member]

I heard he's like 50-50 vs gnw

I think thats about it

 

[jtm94]

So we have discussed the bad matchups quite a bit, but who do we destroy/beat?

We go in on DK, Bowser, DDD?, Puff, Ganon.

MUs I like, but may not be character due to... I kinda like Peach now because bair to fair works especially well on her and she doesn't have crazy movement so we can outpace her. Ike seems much better than Marth/Roy and combos work well on him. Bad Captain Falcon is easy to deal with, but if he's on point may not be so easy. I think Ice Climbers are dealt with pretty well because bair and nair on shield is super scary for them and bacon disrupts them hard.

 

[felipe_9595]

We go in on DK, Bowser, DDD?, Puff, Ganon.

MUs I like, but may not be character due to... I kinda like Peach now because bair to fair works especially well on her and she doesn't have crazy movement so we can outpace her. Ike seems much better than Marth/Roy and combos work well on him. Bad Captain Falcon is easy to deal with, but if he's on point may not be so easy. I think Ice Climbers are dealt with pretty well because bair and nair on shield is super scary for them and bacon disrupts them hard.

I think the DK matchup isnt that good for us, he can potentially 0 to death us. I agree with the rest, we can gimp G&W pretty badly and we already were almost tied with Ice Climbers in Melee, in P:M we have the advantage for a mile. I think we faceroll Wario too.

 

[MrLul]

What do you do against Shiek? Plup bopped me with Shiek's edge guarding and down throw chain grab.

 

[felipe_9595]

What do you do against Shiek? Plup bopped me with Shiek's edge guarding and down throw chain grab.

I find it difficult, but not Fox level difficult, i think its like 60-40 for sheik, if she gets a grab we are kinda ****ed, but we can still combo her nicely and edgeguard her in the same way,

 

[jtm94]

Umbreon plays Sheik, but he has a good Fox, and I honestly struggle more against Sheik than Fox.

I got games recorded guys! Streamed all weekend lots of footage of me playing good, bad, and godly in singles/teams. My recording setup is low quality at the moment though.

Everything from the 20th onward http://www.twitch.tv/teambladebreakers/profile/past_broadcasts
The first video that doesn't look like smash leads into smash and the first games I play are against Umbreon's Sheik, Marth, and Fox. I start bad, but start doing pretty good.

This is too good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk4IJPelHaM

Me vs Marth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcFeaNqtp5o

Me vs Sheik:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJEI9ch3tmU

 

[bËst^]

Does anyone agree with me, that GW makes great lucario counter?

I came to conclusion after playing tons of friendlies with my friend who is Lucario-main and the more we play, the more he struggles with my GW.

It seems that Lucario's approaches are easily countered by GW's attack those posses longe range and long lasting hitboxes (Bair, Ftilt, Dtilt...). And eventhought Lucario gets on your skin to do his autocombos, you can easily escape them simply doing upB OoS.

Lucarios projectile gaming is countered and reversed via bucket. Even small shadowball absorbs deal a lot of knock back and comboing Lucario into bucket is pretty easy at low percentages.

Being out of the stage is also painful for Lucario as GW can cover all Lucarios options via Ftilt and Fair. he can safely challenge Lucario when being off stage with Nair and Fair combined with high priority upB.

I just feel that Lucarios options agains GW are very limited. Fsmash is the only move that can outrange GW:s disjointed attacks. and spamming Fsmash rarely leads to anything good.

 

[jtm94]

When anyone gets the time please critique my sets. Be as critical as you like.

Probably going to turn tap jump off... I'm just a mess trying to save my DJ. I get it a lot for not having tap jump off, but it's hard for me to not hard press up.

 

[felipe_9595]

Vs that Sheik:
You need to control the space better, instead of approaching B reversal bacon, you could just do standing SH Double bacon or retreating bacon, she got into you so many times because that. Also, when you got a grab i feel you didnt follow up correctly, you went for bthrows instead of uthrow (or even frthrow), and followed with an Uair instead of a fair, side b or even and up b to combo extend. Y also recommend you to use your waveland more, its amazing how many space you can control with wavelands/Empty jumps-> waveland

Vs marth:
That match was better, but you still need to try to control space, marth just went ape**** on you, you were the first 30 seconds hanging from the right ledge scared, when you could just grab it and up b out of it to safety. You followed better here, but you didnt grab or use bair often enough, in that matchup grabbing and turtle are your best friends because marth basically destroys you. Also, when yoou did grab you went for bthrow-> nair, which doesnt work, always try to go for uthrow because you can get the most out of it

 

[jtm94]

Fthrow and btrhow are really good because of positional advantage. I can get a lot more out of UpB now without tap jump on so I can secure KOs that way. While the hit stun does not make it a true combo, GnW nair can beat out most things if you space it well and you can get KOs far earlier this way vs others.

Yeah in those matches I can't even say the MU is hard, the skill gap between me and him is extreme. I've been having a difficult time consistently comboing Sheik for some reason. I have a hard time getting in and I don't get nearly enough % off of things like I should and I keep practicing on dummy characters with DI, but in game I do weird things.

I was watching someone else play and I actually forgot about SH double bacon. I've just been using SH single bacon that I got used to it. I need to stop moving around between stocks because I always get hit.

I was using some neat stuff. I REALLY like being on the ledge as GnW. planking is amazing because he can hop onto stage with an invincible uair then waveland further in. You can also invincible fair and nair.

 

[felipe_9595]

Fthrow and btrhow are really good because of positional advantage. I can get a lot more out of UpB now without tap jump on so I can secure KOs that way. While the hit stun does not make it a true combo, GnW nair can beat out most things if you space it well and you can get KOs far earlier this way vs others.

Yeah in those matches I can't even say the MU is hard, the skill gap between me and him is extreme. I've been having a difficult time consistently comboing Sheik for some reason. I have a hard time getting in and I don't get nearly enough % off of things like I should and I keep practicing on dummy characters with DI, but in game I do weird things.

I was watching someone else play and I actually forgot about SH double bacon. I've just been using SH single bacon that I got used to it. I need to stop moving around between stocks because I always get hit.

I was using some neat stuff. I REALLY like being on the ledge as GnW. planking is amazing because he can hop onto stage with an invincible uair then waveland further in. You can also invincible fair and nair.

Hahaha yeah, i know, but after a while you get predictable, Marth And Sheik can both shieldgrab an approaching fair, or a fair from the ledge, and you kinda did a lot of times (I do the same mistake hahaha), they cant grab the turtle though.

The thing about G&W is, even if he feels like it, most of his combos are followups rather than true setups, you need to read for his DI in order to land the correct attack, thats why you should be using Up B a lot because you can get the most of it,you can combo every single of of your aerials into (Upb-> Dair is godlike in platforms and for reading techchases) or upb->uair->Anything. Also uthrow is your best friend, fthrow and bthrow are good to mixup your opponents di (If you bthrow and they di forward, you get af ree nair c but not the best options because you can di away of those freely, but with uthrow you at least have always the option to hit an up b.

I agree invincibile uairs are great because they are one of the only hits thats safe on shield from G&W.

 

[MrLul]

What do you do against Link? He's like Marth with projectiles and less landing lag on everything. He can down throw and get guaranteed follow ups at any percent and he's super fast. His up b comes out on I think frame 4 and kills super early. His up air beats dair, his up smash is really good and has only about 5 frames of ending lag, just like all of his other moves. Help pls. ;-;

 

[Deleted member]

What do you do against Link? He's like Marth with projectiles and less landing lag on everything. He can down throw and get guaranteed follow ups at any percent and he's super fast. His up b comes out on I think frame 4 and kills super early. His up air beats dair, his up smash is really good and has only about 5 frames of ending lag, just like all of his other moves. Help pls. ;-;

I'm 99% sure that the only thing that is a fact here is up air beating dair

the rest just sounds silly. links aerials don't have less landing lag than marths, down throw doesn't get followups until very late ish %s, his actual running speed isn't great and neither is his DD/Wavedash, Up B is pretty easy to bait out, and I just tested upsmashs end lag... it's 17 frames.

 

[MrLul]

I'm 99% sure that the only thing that is a fact here is up air beating dair

the rest just sounds silly. links aerials don't have less landing lag than marths, down throw doesn't get followups until very late ish %s, his actual running speed isn't great and neither is his DD/Wavedash, Up B is pretty easy to bait out, and I just tested upsmashs end lag... it's 17 frames.

Link's aerials still don't have that much end lag for their power, but I meant as in he has a big sword disjoint like Marth. On GnW he can do down throw to up tilt or down smash or up smash, and at higher percents he can dair kill. I should've been more clear with that fast part, I meant fast as in good/fast pressure. and he doesn't need to dash dance because of projectiles. The Link I play only uses Up B if it's being combo'd into. I'm sorry about writing 5 frames, I wrote it out of salt lol, but it still is really fast for being a really good move imo.

 

[Deleted member]

Great mobility and Dash Dancing > Projectilies (Unless they're falco laser)

If you're writing because you're salty about just losing to a link player, maybe wait before you post because you'll say a bunch of incorrect ****.

 

[MrLul]

Great mobility and Dash Dancing > Projectilies (Unless they're falco laser)

If you're writing because you're salty about just losing to a link player, maybe wait before you post because you'll say a bunch of incorrect ****.

But GnW has bad mobility so projectiles beat GnW unless he can bucket.

and I should lol.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I need a bit of help guys, my friend has decided to pick up Fox and it is just hell. He spends half the time jumping over my head shining until I am at a high enough percent to Usmash/Uair/Bair me. I just dont see what tools G&W has to stop this. Up tilt is okay but is inconsistent in actually deterring him from occupying the space directly above my head. You guys got any tips for this?

The only positive I have found though is back throw leads into a Judgement or a short hop Judgement which is nice except I cannot grab him because of goddamn shine.

 

[Hamman88]

The name of the matchup is grabs. You have to be able to work in at least one grab or two, the chaingrab we have on him is merciless. combined with the fact that we can edgeguard fox like hell, it makes the matchup pretty bearable. As for getting the grabs, well thats the hard part. But the fox matchup is definitely a different pacing, any upb OOS has the potential to loose you a stock, so be very warry of using this. Also we can combo him to **** with upairs and whatnot, so that.

If he's ever controlling too much space, use your bacon. bacon. bacon. its so good. master b-reverse bacon, wavebounce bacon, and short hop bacon, and youll be able to stop the madman from jumping while remaining hard to hit yourself.

for more notes watch dakpo vs javi. I consider this to be pretty much the pinnacle of G&W play, and you can learn so much from this. even note the significant switch in styles from game 1 to game 2, how he starts using dtilt and alot of other moves that are "safer" once javi switched to shiek. It just goes to show how you have to approach the fox match-up with a completely different midnset

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzRgAunbuss

 

[Paper Maribro]

Are there any hit confirms for grab?

I saw Dakpo jab into grab once but is that consistent?

I will try Bacon next time, thanks for the tip

 

[jtm94]

Jab into grab is life. I do it all day. Sometimes jab jab into grab or jab wait jab grab.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Jab into grab is life. I do it all day. Sometimes jab jab into grab or jab wait jab grab.

Yeah esp when they are falling to the ground w/ no jump * Which btw you can steal their jump with the jab sometimes

*Or you can steal it with the soft part of the Fair

 

[Dakpo]

for more notes watch dakpo vs javi. I consider this to be pretty much the pinnacle of G&W play, and you can learn so much from this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzRgAunbuss

Oh you :3

 

[Hamman88]

Oh you :3

My first thought after watching the set was "****, Dakpo just rasied the bar so ****ing high, what the **** have I been doing the last month?" Major props man

 

[MrLul]

I've been incorporating footstools into my game and I've found some amazing things with it. You can usually do it after an up air, and bair on fast fallers. Bair --> Footstool is amazing against fast fallers if the bair gets them off stage, it sets up an easy edgeguard.

 

[cruised]

Does anyone have any tips on the Donkey Kong matchup? He seems to get a lot out of crouch cancelling and grabs(Cargo F-throw to Fair). Actually I think my punish game isn't strong enough to beat any heavy character in general. I would still like to see if there are any DK specific things to keep in mind.

 

[jtm94]

bair goes into footstool and dair meteor on midweights and the heavier average fallers. I've gotten it on like Marth, Peach, and DK. Today I got double bacon into footstool on ROB and it was sweetness.

Against DK it really is just punish game. We can do EVERYTHING to him. Crouch and dash attack are a nuisance, but bair can hit through dash once he gets to some percent and while it isn't a perfect out to crouching they may stop trying to crouch it because eating every hit of bair is rough.

 

[howbadisbad]

Thoughts on ZSS matchup?

Her bair is super scary, and you have to kill her off the blastzone since she always comes back and cant be gimped.
You can bucket dmash but its hard read that if you miss you die or take 50+%. (bucket changes make this a bad idea anyway)
She punishes upb and being on platforms hard and safe, recovering high is very bad against her.
Her grab isnt **** anymore so you cant stay in sheild.

 

[Strong Badam]

probably evenish. always have a bacon out and mix in dash cancel dtilt with spaced bair for your neutral. get knockdown -> grab -> deal 50 damage.
just resign to never try to punish bair if it's done well
it's not really possible to gimp her but she's a really good combo weight for g&w. you can do things like uthrow sh uair waveland grab at 0%, or full hop uair waveland grab up to platforms.

 

[howbadisbad]

probably evenish. always have a bacon out and mix in dash cancel dtilt with spaced bair for your neutral. get knockdown -> grab -> deal 50 damage.
just resign to never try to punish bair if it's done well
it's not really possible to gimp her but she's a really good combo weight for g&w. you can do things like uthrow sh uair waveland grab at 0%, or full hop uair waveland grab up to platforms.

Dash cancel dtilt?

You mean just doing dtilt out of a dash?

My main problem is dealing with bair, too good to contest, long reach, and has basically no lag so you can dash away and not get punished.

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, I mean dashing, canceling the run with a crouch, and then dtilting. this is referred to as a dash cancel dtilt.

 

[jtm94]

I don't like facing her too much honestly, but she does have an amazing weight for uair strings. Her nair, upB, Upsmash, sideB, are just weirdness to me. I need to work on it a little bit. I absolutely hate being above her in any type of way.

So I have a new character to hate as GnW..... Squirtle.s stupid self.
His recovery is GOD and KOs me off the top at 80 from upper plats. I feel so forced to respect his moves and the way he retains momentum I can't punish anything he does on my shield nor is any aerial fast enough to hit him when he uses SideB on my shield. He crouches everything into dtilt and it leads into fair.

It's weird because I don't feel like I'm being outplayed, just that I don't know what to do because acting first feels beyond terrible in the MU. grabs KO early, fair KOs early, UpB KOs even when I try to avoid it, and his aerials + water gun beat UpB. Please halp.

http://www.twitch.tv/teambladebreakers/b/611192581 at 5:33:00

 

[jtm94]

at 3:04:17 http://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/b/612418510 (this stream isn't sucky quality)
this is me against Sheik. I was super nervous, but I know I can do it.

at 3:41:05 I play against a Marth and win on stream

at 3:51:46 I play GnW against my Sonic friend

I beat the Roy that I lost to about 3 weeks ago. It was soooo nice.

 

[MrLul]

Got 5th at Paragon as Game & Watch but lost to Plup's sheik... again.
Any tips on the MU?

 

[jtm94]

Got 5th at Paragon as Game & Watch but lost to Plup's sheik... again.
Any tips on the MU?

How many entered?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!??? That's awesome!!!?!?!?!??!!

I hate Sheik as GnW. To be honest in the set above that I just shared you can see how I do ga,e 1, but game 2 I tried Sheik dittos and did much better. I've learned decent Roy and Marth counterplay making the MU doable, but against Sheik I haven't learned a thing to employ to make it better.

You really NEED to get 60+% off of every interaction. The problem is it's difficult and as Sheik getting that much isn't very difficult execution wise. She does have poor enough aerial mobility to make he really susceptible to uair combos and uair/uthrow/upb into most anything. Also good luck recovering... I have yet to ever figure that part out.

 

[MrLul]

How many entered?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!??? That's awesome!!!?!?!?!??!!

I hate Sheik as GnW. To be honest in the set above that I just shared you can see how I do ga,e 1, but game 2 I tried Sheik dittos and did much better. I've learned decent Roy and Marth counterplay making the MU doable, but against Sheik I haven't learned a thing to employ to make it better.

You really NEED to get 60+% off of every interaction. The problem is it's difficult and as Sheik getting that much isn't very difficult execution wise. She does have poor enough aerial mobility to make he really susceptible to uair combos and uair/uthrow/upb into most anything. Also good luck recovering... I have yet to ever figure that part out.

There was 122 entrants. I played better than I have ever played, but I got nervous when fighting against m2k, because he's m2k, and plup because he's beaten me before. How do you get 60%+ off of every interaction? I beat gahtzu with 70% on every interaction though. The chain grab is amazinggg.

 

[jtm94]

There was 122 entrants. I played better than I have ever played, but I got nervous when fighting against m2k, because he's m2k, and plup because he's beaten me before. How do you get 60%+ off of every interaction? I beat gahtzu with 70% on every interaction though. The chain grab is amazinggg.

I'm jealous of your godliness. I wish I could see your sets.

You just combo better. Practice on Sheik CPU until you borderline get 0 deaths on every interaction. At 0 you can jab>grab>uthrow>uair>uair>UpB>dair>nair and do like 65%. You can do it through DI on Sheik as well and you can mix it up on the fly.

 

[Shoto]

Okay, so the best Falcon in Georgia lives down the street from me. His name is Fatality, and he is insanely good. But anyways I was playing with him, and I got killed by d-throw knee a few times. Any idea on how to DI this throw? Also any general tips in this matchup? I can't get outta my shield.

Edit: Congratulations MrLul!

 

[jtm94]

Uhh. I beat Falcons by repeatedly using utilt because it beats every approach he has.
DI just down and away infront of him. You NEED to hit the ground so you can tech.