"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[felipe_9595]

Hey guys, placed 2nd at a big tournament here in Chile, GnW only <3

http://www.twitch.tv/usmash/b/596346689

at 08:42:00 I start playing until 09:07:00 and come back for Losers Final at 09:34:00

 

[Shockbound]

Can we talk about the Ivysaur/GnW matchup?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DukB22ad4X4
Dakpo barely makes it through this set, and I don't think he would have been able to make it through at all if Denti didn't ragequit.

I'm having an extremely hard time figuring out what G&W's options are, and it mostly looks like I have to CC everything until Ivy messes up and lets me get close enough to D-Tilt, and after that I have to make sure not to let Ivy get any chance to act during the followup or she'll just N-Air/B-Air and bring it back to neutral. G&W's neutral is very weak (even weaker as of 3.5 with the removal of bacon walls) when compared to Ivysaur's and he cannot afford to just let % rack up until Ivy gets a throw into Up-B sweetspot.

watdo

 

[Dakpo]

Can we talk about the Ivysaur/GnW matchup?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DukB22ad4X4
I don't think he would have been able to make it through at all if Denti didn't ragequit.

I would have been up 3 stocks to 1. I'm 100% sure I could have would that match

 

[Shockbound]

Oh for some reason I thought it was even at one to one, my bad.

Dakpo can you school me in how to not get rekt by Ivy ;A;

 

[Dakpo]

Oh for some reason I thought it was even at one to one, my bad.

Dakpo can you school me in how to not get rekt by Ivy ;A;

the match up is terrible, try working on running in and crouch cancelling his moves

 

[jtm94]

the match up is terrible, try working on running in and crouch cancelling his moves

I asked you some time ago on your thoughts in the Ivy MU and you said to wait until 3.5.
I thought you were implying Ivy wouldn't be in the game v.v

 

[Dakpo]

I still havn't fought against 3.5 ivy

 

[Deleted member]

Ivy got kind of bad in 3.5 due to stuff like up throw having more end lag, up b killing later, horrible recovery, nerfs to aerials, needs more charge for solarbeam, and she can't heal off of inanimate objects

I think the biggest thing that makes gnw vs ivy fine now is her fair being less disjointed and lack of grabbing you at 60% = kill

 

[jtm94]

Ivy got kind of bad in 3.5 due to stuff like up throw having more end lag, up b killing later, horrible recovery, nerfs to aerials, needs more charge for solarbeam, and she can't heal off of inanimate objects

I think the biggest thing that makes gnw vs ivy fine now is her fair being less disjointed and lack of grabbing you at 60% = kill

Grabs aren't threatening now, but aerials are still a nuisance in a Marth-esque way.
I swear I died from seed bomb fastfalling through the top plat of battlefield at like 70%, but that's unrelated I was just mad.

 

[jtm94]

Working on getting my movement down like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3NTVRpuCto&list=UUa00K-HWKiupJu_93_X0n7A

 

[WillieDangerously]

Lemme ask you guys a question- how do you feel about the Zelda matchup? She seems to have good strong moves that can often outbeat G&W's disjointsand can kill pretty easily with her powerful moves. I noticed now with the Din's Fire mechanic that when it comes back, you can bucket it. You can even bucket one charge while it's out, and bucket another charge when it goes back to her.

 

[jtm94]

Lemme ask you guys a question- how do you feel about the Zelda matchup? She seems to have good strong moves that can often outbeat G&W's disjointsand can kill pretty easily with her powerful moves. I noticed now with the Din's Fire mechanic that when it comes back, you can bucket it. You can even bucket one charge while it's out, and bucket another charge when it goes back to her.

Hmm, I played Zelda, but I don't face many.
I felt like Zelda before wasn't too bad against GnW. The only thing that changed was dins and other Zeldas will complain and say it makes the MU harder, but I think Zelda still has potential to do well.
Bucket is usable in the MU, but it isn't something to depend on. The fact that GnW can crouch under SH fair/bair is pretty good limiting her aerial options. We still have better movement.
I'd say it's even at the moment, doesn't seem too polarized in any direction, just weird.

 

[MrLul]

Any tips on Samus MU? I can beat them, but it's really unfun to play. No combos on her, she has a good recovery, tether, she's heavy, and has unbucketable projectiles.

 

[Shockbound]

Most of Zelda's ground moves beat every option G&W has. They clank his moves, then continue to hit him through it. Her F-Smash is what she's going to challenge you with, so be very careful about approaching from the ground unless you think you can sneak in a D-Tilt before her hitbox can come out. Never approach her from the top. Her Up-Air is enormous and can even beat out G&W D-Air. Her Up-Smash stays out for a long time and comes out pretty fast, so she pretty much has an impenetrable defense from the top if she's expecting you. You can mess with her by throwing out a Down-B stall on the way down to her, but be careful with this since her Up-Air is really scary.

Her aerial options are very weak if you are already grounded. Her N-Air and Neutral-B don't cover anything below her, so she is very susceptible to pressure from underneath her since her D-Air covers just about nothing and is unquestionably beaten out by G&W Up-Air. As long as you can maintain good positioning, Zelda's only way to escape your pressure is with an Up-B. She'll have a difficult time doing this due to the 32 frame startup and will remain combo food until she gets a break to complete her animation. She's extremely floaty too, and a decent string of Up-Airs can kill pretty much everywhere but Dreamland. FoD is usually my go-to pick for this matchup.

Bucketing Din's is usually pretty safe to do if she's trying to play campy. I can't figure out how to do it twice on the same one, but it does play a significant role in the matchup. Keeping two charges is enough to KO her in most situations and stages. Having just two means you still get to keep your stall mindgames along with your charges, since you'd be emptying your bucket if you tried to stall with 3 charges. Dump it on her from a read on her teleport.

==

A good Samus is extremely annoying to deal with for sure. Fortunately, her Super Missiles can be ducked under during neutral so it isn't as bad as it could be for most other characters. She's just as floaty as Zelda and is just as susceptible to dying off the top as her, but she is not as easily pressured by G&W Up-Air because she has Down-B as an option. If she's coming down, harass her with single-bacons until you can get her into hitstun, then try to whack her with the pan if she's in reach. The pan's semi-spike is good for KOing her most of the time since it removes her tether recovery when it sends her below ground level, and her vertical recovery isn't quite enough to make it back most of the time.

Keep your distance in neutral, her grab is ridiculous when you're both on the ground and often leads to some deadly followups. When she's on the ground you will primarily want to approach her from a diagonal angle with a F-Air. This isn't going to be safe all of the time if she shields it, so I've found that the best option is to read the shield and respond to it by jumping over her and crossing her up with a B-Air, rather than coming from the front with F-Air. It will often pressure her shield enough to hit her out of it, so it can be quickly followed up by a D-Tilt, which can then be followed up by whatever vertical combo fits your fancy. Another option is to grab her through shield since yours comes out way faster. I like Battlefield for this matchup.

 

[jtm94]

Do not let samus get pokestadium or distant planet. Missiles are scary.

 

[WillieDangerously]

I need more practice against Samus. You say I can duck her misses flying straight? Good to know.
Whats the general consensus on worst matchup for G&W?
And what is general on spacie matchups?

 

[Paper Maribro]

I need more practice against Samus. You say I can duck her misses flying straight? Good to know.
Whats the general consensus on worst matchup for G&W?
And what is general on spacie matchups?

Worst matchup for G&W? Anyone with a sword. Particularly Marth.

Spacie matchup? If you get a full bucket, quite good because it kills super early (I did some testing on Fox, it can kill at 18% at the edge of FD). Other than that, doesnt seem too bad? Least not compared to the rest of the casts matchup against them.

 

[jtm94]

I'd peg worst MU as Marth/Roy.

We go in on spacies. We combo them, chaingrab them, gimp them. Neutral is still hard imo, but a stray hit can lead to so much.

I'm going to another weekly next Saturday and I'm trying to win to rep GnW. My movement is so butter, I just need to get UpBs on stage without using my DJ. I'm feeling really good, I'm just worried about the Sheik MU.

 

[Shockbound]

I find Ivysaur the worst, Ike being a close second. Anyone with disjoint that can rival G&W's moveset can be very difficult to deal with.

Marth is the least problematic swordsman for me, mostly because I feel like I can crouch cancel just about anything but a tippered F-Smash. Roy just feels a little stronger than Marth but essentially has the same counterplay, though crouch canceling is not nearly as effective. Ike's kill potential is extremely scary in combination with his disjoint, and being a floaty lightweight means death at 40% on any map. Ivysaur just has tons of very safe options against G&W which makes it very, very difficult for him to ever get in.

Counterplay to spacies varies with each one when it comes to G&W.

The Fox matchup in particular is very unique because it means that G&W cannot use his Up-B as a safe pressure escape in most situations. Regular getup into Up-B just means that Fox can do an Up-Air and probably kill G&W for trying that. It's definitely the hardest spacie for G&W to deal with just because he has fewer safe options that his Up-B would normally grant him. It's not really an uneven matchup since G&W can kill Fox off of the side almost as easily as Fox would kill him off of the top. G&W just has to remember to do a normal getup (surprisingly difficult for Fox to deal with compared to other options) and escape pressure in any way that doesn't put him in the air, be it a spotdodge, WD or even a roll. Just anything to avoid that Up-Smash and Up-Air.

Falco matchup is definitely in G&W's favor. G&W's crazy air mobility and vertical recovery screws with Falco spikes and effectively removes its use as an early kill option. It also means that Falco easily gets gimped by anything when used offstage at all, and G&W can easily afford to go 'deep' (by Falco's standards, at least) to seal the deal. Falco also has very few options to deal with a G&W that is above him, which is a terrifying spot for Falco to be in when threatened with a D-Air. A really silly matchup for sure.

Wolf is hard to say for sure, in my case at least. I really have not played against many Wolves, but I can tell that he's just about as combo oriented as G&W is. His finishers are also terrifying against lightweights and floaties, so his kill potential off of one punish is very threatening. Taking him to a stage where you can kill him just as fast as he can kill you is probably the best bet, since both of you have devastating combos on one another. Stocks will pretty much flip back and forth with 0 to death combos between the two of you.

I don't think I have to mention the chaingrabs.

Fun fact, Fox and G&W are the exact same weight, tied for the 4th lightest in the game.

 

[jtm94]

Bad Marth is the least problematic for me because I can combo him back pretty hard into KO moves, but neutral is very difficult and I never should get in against him. It could be skill gap, but I have no way in against that character, same with Roy and Ivy actually. Ivy isn't quite as bad now, but it's still kind of buns. Good thing most of them quit c:

Neutral against Fox is rough. You breath and you die. Just because we have a solid punish game does not make the MU even. He's still the best character in the game.

Falco relies on lasers hard so you bucket and KO him. EZ.

 

[WillieDangerously]

G&W's crazy air mobility and vertical recovery screws with Falco spikes and effectively removes its use as an early kill option.

Wouldn't it mean that G&W's recovery is actually more dangerous because of Falco spikes? All Falco needs to do is throw out a dair and you would just fly right into it.

 

[jtm94]

Wouldn't it mean that G&W's recovery is actually more dangerous because of Falco spikes? All Falco needs to do is throw out a dair and you would just fly right into it.

GnW doesn't have that much air mobility. Dair is still incredibly scary and can take stocks early.
You either go high and he uses bair or go low and he uses dair. Hope you sweetspot.

 

[WillieDangerously]

GnW doesn't have that much air mobility. Dair is still incredibly scary and can take stocks early.
You either go high and he uses bair or go low and he uses dair. Hope you sweetspot.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

 

[MrLul]

What do you do about campy Toon Links?
I try clanking them with ftilt but it rarely works.

 

[jtm94]

What do you do about campy Toon Links?
I try clanking them with ftilt but it rarely works.

bair until you get close enough to bair.

 

[MrLul]

bair until you get close enough to bair.

but thats makes me predictable.

 

[cursdpawwa]

I noticed that sometimes a L-cancelled b-air can lead to f-air or n-air for a relatively easy kill. Is it weight dependent or fall speed dependent?

 

[jtm94]

I noticed that sometimes a L-cancelled b-air can lead to f-air or n-air for a relatively easy kill. Is it weight dependent or fall speed dependent?

both.
Works on average weight lighter characters, but works a little better on floatier heavierish characters like Peach.
Less weight means more hit stun, and floaty means they hang in the air for a bit. It works really well against Marth, Roy at high percents, Peach, Mario, etc. The higher the % the more hit stun they will experience.

 

[Shockbound]

Lately I've been having problems against Link. I've played against campy Links and aggressive Links, and still can't see a way in on either. I'm not even sure where to start.

I've noticed that I at least have options against their Up-B edgeguard from ledge by regrabbing, then drop jumping and Up-B'ing myself before my invincibility times out. Usually this lets me D-Air them if I'm quick enough but after that I'm not sure which moves I should be using to deal with them after that.

When do I punish and what moves do I punish with?

 

[MrLul]

On Yoshi's Story Brawl you can down throw them on the Ghost Randal thing and just shield grab them and down throw over and over and then get back to stage with up b. It's hilarious.

 

[jtm94]

Lately I've been having problems against Link. I've played against campy Links and aggressive Links, and still can't see a way in on either. I'm not even sure where to start.

I've noticed that I at least have options against their Up-B edgeguard from ledge by regrabbing, then drop jumping and Up-B'ing myself before my invincibility times out. Usually this lets me D-Air them if I'm quick enough but after that I'm not sure which moves I should be using to deal with them after that.

When do I punish and what moves do I punish with?

Link got hit pretty hard, but I can see the MU still being a pain.

You can duck under boomerang, grab, and simultaneously CC his entire moveset. The character is hard weak to CC the only thing you need to respect is meteor hit of dtilt. If I see him throwing boomerang I will charge him, slide duck under it and dtilt him if close enough.

Against recovery I just repeatedly drop on top of him with dair. He's heavy so it doesn't really help him recover too much since bomb jumping is far less versatile.

Against Link don't be baited by well spaced fair because it is very safe. His throw game is good, but you shouldn't be getting grabbed by him. When you touch him you should do a lot of %%%%%. His projectiles cover a lot of holes in his gameplay, but they are still there. Find them and then just work on your punish game.

 

[Shockbound]

I couldn't duck under his grab, actually. I went into training mode to check just now and I absolutely cannot duck under it. I'm pretty sure the only grabs I can duck under are from Ganondorf, CFalcon, and Snake.

I could duck under the most of his projectiles but I had a very hard time spacing that around his grab. Dash slide D-Tilt isn't fast enough to hit him before his grab box comes out, and it grabs me through my own hitbox. Getting grabbed meant D-Throw into D-Air, which is guaranteed, and kills at 60% on most stages.

Slide crouching usually made it past the first boomerang, but if I did get past that I would either get weak-arrowed into hitstun then grabbed, or dash-attacked. Even then, this Link wised up and started angling his boomerang down into the floor to hit me when I started doing that more often.

When he was already in the middle of Up-B'ing back to stage, D-Air got beaten out even if I was coming from the top. Usually his recovery wasn't a problem since I rarely got him offstage, and when I did, he was way out there and unable to recover.

Meteor hit on D-Tilt means nothing when I successfully sweetspot and there's no reason for him to do that over Up-B'ing by the ledge. If I don't end up sweetspotting Up-B has much higher kill potential. D-Tilt while I'm already on the ledge after hanging out too long still means I can just Up-B and sweetspot again. If I'm camping the ledge too long he just hangs back and shoots arrows at my hands until my five regrabs are up.

I had very few problems with his F-Air. I felt like I had safer options on him if he was aerial unless I was above him. If I was above him I'd just have my D-Air get beaten out by Up-Air. His F-Air didn't seem like much of a problem since its startup is as slow as my Side-B, and my own F-Air had similar range to rival it.

 

[EmptySky00]

You can indeed duck his grab. But you can't at point blank because the hitbox is bigger at his arm. Don't rely on ducking under a grab to circumvent Link's terrible grab game. Just don't do bad things in neutral and don't punt your shield pressure. His grab game is completely non-threatening until much later.

Ugh. Anyway, after reading more of this, my best advice is to play a more clean game. You seem to be playing a sub-optimal game and you just need to play cleaner. Don't rely on a simplistic linear solution to a single action. Attacking him better beats out grabbing. Playing a better neutral beats projectiles. Etc.

The thing about Link generally now is that in neutral he has very little to threaten most characters effectively in neutral and he has a hilarious combo weight once you get him. G&W might not fall into the non-threatened category because of his own laughable combo weight. Basically you want to not let him get you in a bad position and don't let him punish you for doing bad moves. If you can pin him down he has very little to fend you off if you play clean.


Edit: You can indeed duck under his grab. I just tested it and got it to happen. However, due to a peculiar twist of Fate (Banish 3), it's extremely inconsistent. It seems to work the most when Link is moving beforehand.

But, hey, don't fret I have a solution.

Actually play around his ****ty grab instead of trying to rely on a bad mechanic to nullify it. It's not even hard to do lol.

 

[Ephenilliac]

What should I do against a campy Diddy Kong? The player spaced his bananas and peanut gun pretty well and whenever I finally got through those he'd have an opportunity to go in on me, so how should I deal with Diddy's bananas+gun?

 

[jtm94]

Really learn item play. With only 1 banana it is HUGE now. Learn AGT, you can do it to the peanut and banana alike. GnW has a strong arm.

 

[Strong Badam]

you really need to make your openings hurt vs semi-ffers like mk, diddy, roy, dk, lucas, sheik. you should get like 60% off of a grab at 0 every time.

 

[Juushichi]

I would say optimally you should get 60% + stage positioning against semi-FFers... but if you're not up to that level, I think getting 40%+ and pushing them towards or offstage is probably the for the best.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I would say optimally you should get 60% + stage positioning against semi-FFers... but if you're not up to that level, I think getting 40%+ and pushing them towards or offstage is probably the for the best.

the link in your sig doesnt even work n00b

 

[Juushichi]

I know and have known. Still won't fix it though. : ()

 

[jtm94]

I would say optimally you should get 60% + stage positioning against semi-FFers... but if you're not up to that level, I think getting 40%+ and pushing them towards or offstage is probably the for the best.

This pretty much.

It's possible to 0 death anyone if the DI falls into place, but the opponent's DI becomes less relevant as their character starts to fall faster. Against Roy you can CG to around 40% and then end in a string of a SH uair or two, into an UpB DJ nair as long as they didn't DI hard one direction and SDI the uair hits.