"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Dakpo]

2nd scenario bair didn't connect well. Possibly to SDI? I feel as though you didn't act with UpB as fast as you could because you could have hit him where he was.

He was definitely using SDI. I don't think I could have Up B'ed in time. It looks like I tried to act as soon as the animation was over

 

[jtm94]

He was definitely using SDI. I don't think I could have Up B'ed in time. It looks like I tried to act as soon as the animation was over

It seemed like you tried to act asap. I just wasn't sure about possible IASA frames on bair that could have been used. Bair to UpB will only work if you get a later hit of bair. Sometimes I achieve this by bairing towards them and landing the later hitboxes instead of timing the bair to come out on them. It is more forecasted, but as long as they are in hit stun it doesn't really matter.

If people can learn to consistently SDI bair like that then it may be troublesome in the long run.

Another option for low % follow ups could be fthrow or bthrow. If they DI the wrong way you get similar things as no DI on upthrow. If they DI the correct way they go pretty far though, this is useful at the edge because it sort of mimmicks Falcon's drop zone out of downthrow when he's facing the edge. We can drop with fair for sure, nair could probably work if timed correctly and either can send them pretty far off stage leaving us with good position even if they still get to recover.

I'm also not dealing with the same caliber of players as you so I'm not dealing with people who SDI my bair or uair. It does happen sometimes and sadly I just don't think there is an option that covers strong DI from upthrow into uair in some instances.

Against Toon Link it is worth noting that Downthrow follow-ups are very plentiful because his tech is garbage. It's so short that you can react to which way he goes and get more grabs/whatever. The issue with the bad techs is that since they go less distance DACUS will go past them and isn't feasible unless you somehow compensate for the distance.

 

[Metmetm3t]

You can see that Lunchables's SDI is on point both of the times you go for Bair. It's probably better to try and scrap in a nair than land the bair and get SDI'd and punished.

 

[Deleted member]

I am DEFINITELY SDI'ing dakpos u throw combos. If I didn't SDI dakpos u air I'd lose to him everytime we play.

 

[jtm94]

You should stop SDIing that. I don't want people to think it's possible or something.

 

[Deleted member]

I like winning money

sorry dakpo

 

[jtm94]

Don't worry we can collude.

 

[Dakpo]

I like winning money

sorry dakpo

Its ok, you are pushing me to be a better player

 

[jtm94]

So Mini-Meat? We get our own trademark food product.

 

[Black Bean]

So Mini-Meat? We get our own trademark food product.

it's a kind of disappointing turnout for SH bacon if only the first two stun.

also, did I read correctly that bucket is given 12 damage for any energy projectile? this would be super amazing for the fox/falco/wolf/ness matchups.

^ this entails that bucket is overall weaker, though. I wonder if a 36 damage bucket is even worthwile against foes like mario.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Obligatory Changelog post:

Spoiler: Mr. Game and Watch Changelist

Tilts
-Up Tilt hits on frame 7 from 9, Animation now ends on frame 30 from 28.

Smashes
-Up Smash
--Damage decreased from 23 to 21. KBG increased from 96 to 100.
--IASA increased 39 -> 44.

Aerials
-Forward Aerial flub hit damage increased from 6 to 7. KBG increased from 80 to 90.
-Up Aerial KBG increased from 60 to 95. BKB decreased from 75 to 45.

Throws
-All throw's speed increased (Endlag is identical).

Specials
-Neutral Special (Chef)
--Land cancel is fixed so it can be used to no impact land from the edge or on a platform when traveling at low speed.
--Now fastfallable.
--Meat damage increased from 3 to 5 and are a bit larger in size, however throwing out chef meat frequently enough that 2 or more are present on the field has Mr. Game and Watch throw smaller pieces (Mini-Meat™) that do 3 damage and do not flinch.
-Side Special (Judgment):
--[2] Hammer is now a weak spike on air hit. Now poisons in addition to dizzying on grounded hit.
--[3] Hammer damage increased from 4 to 15. Damage element changed from poison to darkness. KBG increased from 50 to 80. BKB increased from 0 to 20. Shield damage increased from 65.6% of full shield health to 77.2%.
--[4] Hammer damage increased from 8 to 10.
--[9] Hammer KBG decreased from 90 to 80, BKB decreased from 90 to 70.
-Down Special (Bucket)
--Stall is now once per air state.
--Horizontal divider decreased from 1.6667 to 1. Gravity increased from 0.04 to 0.095. Terminal velocity increased from 1.2 to 1.7.
--Damage normalised to 12 damage per energy projectile absorbed as opposed to damaged based on projectile absorbed.

Others
-Now has a Jab 2. Same stats as Jab 1.
-Rapid Jab hitbox properly match to animation. Because of this, it has increased range.
-Trip get up attack now has enough invincibility to cover the first part of the attack.
-Dodge Roll and Spot Dodge animations sped up to appropriately match the invincibility timing.

 

[Dakpo]

well well well, what do you guys think of GnW?

 

[Black Bean]

well well well, what do you guys think of GnW?

I like that the bucket can make use of the weaker projectiles. The new colors are beautiful too, especially the red.

I love that judgement has been buffed a bit, along with his rolls. Maybe they'll be noticeably less garbage than before.

 

[Hamman88]

going to have to get used to the fact that chef can now fast fall, keep trying to down angle shdb and have only one come out. other than that and I CAN DACUS EVERYWHERE NOW! rest we'll just have to wait and see. Love the new colors.

 

[jtm94]

My DACUS is 100% now it's GREAT.
Up smash is still strong that's fine.
Overall he feels faster and I don't know why. Is it the 1 frame physics?
I like the noise on nair it lets me know if the hitbox came out so I can land it much easier.
Fair stronger is neat.
I have mixed feelings on uair. It is definitely different, but for me it seems like it goes into the end of UpB easier and can put off the top .
Bacon... I guess overall projectile nerfs are fine. You can fastfall it which is really nice.
Hammers got mostly buffed except 9 and I like that.

Bucket doesn't slow recovery but they did not take away double jump after UpB which is AWESOME.

Lastly, the bucket change is BUSTED. Fox/GnW team can crush enemies hard. Makes bucket good against everyone now. Still KOs at 50%.

 

[Dakpo]

\
Lastly, the bucket change is BUSTED. Fox/GnW team can crush enemies hard. Makes bucket good against everyone now. Still KOs at 50%.

This is broken

 

[jtm94]

I need a melee teammate I am ready to strike in doubles while 3.5 is new.

Also I swear they sped up the hitlag modifiers on back air. It actually isn't even something I question, it's definitely different and easier to L cancel.

 

[GeZ]

I need a melee teammate I am ready to strike in doubles while 3.5 is new.

Also I swear they sped up the hitlag modifiers on back air. It actually isn't even something I question, it's definitely different and easier to L cancel.

Strong Bad has missed and then added things to the change log that he forgot was added already in this patch, so it's super possible.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can confirm that the hitlag modifiers on Bair remain unchanged. 1.2x for multihits and 2x for final hit.

 

[Italia06823834]

Lastly, the bucket change is BUSTED. Fox/GnW team can crush enemies hard. Makes bucket good against everyone now. Still KOs at 50%.

This is broken

That does seem really good. Possibly too good.

 

[MrLul]

Lucas/Ness MU is way better now. You could bucket their PK Thunder in 3.0 to gimp them, but the bucket damage sucked. Now it kills sooo early.

 

[jtm94]

That is EXTREMELY weird. I will eventually test side by side with 3.02.

Anyone else's thoughts on new up air?

 

[Rᴏb]

His new up air feels the same and works just as well as his old one, possibly better. Maybe I think this because I haven't touched 3.02 for quite a while, but this is my initial thought.

Over all, I am really happy with how he turned out. The bacon change was a really smart one, my only gripe is FF angled down bacon is pretty tricky. I feel like I'm not going to be able to consistently pull it off, but that's okay. I guess SHDB is the way to go if you want the down angle. I'm also really curious about what the FF pan can be used for, I still need to mess around with it. I love Jab 2 and am eager to to see if Rapid Jab is worth using now. DACUS is now easier to do and I love it.

G&W is going to wreck this nerfed cast.

 

[MrLul]

Any tips for Marth? I hate the MU so much.

 

[jtm94]

Against Marth you can get things like grabs at low % and fair at higher % out of back air. If you are even tight enough you can get down air. That's what I use. Abuse CC at low % and jab into grab as a disruptor.

 

[Soft Serve]

Against marth, find a secondary

 

[Juushichi]

I think you should probably find a secondary for Marth and maybe Roy.

I believe that GnW has gotten better by nature of characters getting worse, but we as players are really going to have to get creative with how we play neutral with this character now. With I think a lot of character's onstage approaches getting hurt, the better players are going to play more conservatively, which still can be difficult to deal with for this character. Also because bacon doesn't auto dump on some fat characters, I think we also will have to actually play neutral with them too.

Get used to FF-pan hit and B-reverse FF pan hit, it's a fantastic tool.

I think we should bully every character in the game that has a tether trying to get to the ledge. That gives us some key damage in go-ahead situations for sure as well.

 

[Dakpo]

Marth and Roy will still be some of our worst match-ups. I tried to tell the pmbr members who are in charge of GnW what we needed to deal with these match ups, but no dice. But hey, at least I got my faster throw animation!!!

 

[Juushichi]

I'mma be pretty straight w/ you + others since I know I put a lot of effort into trying/implementing various things to improve MUs and stuff for GnW, but it generally doesn't work out/didn't work out because we (or I) in this case misjudged the difference of some negative changes beyond the 2 or more characters that the change was targeted to.

I don't mean to sound hard-off or talk down if this is the case in me saying that, but it's really difficult to make the call for stuff like that especially as you see it get described and tested by potential opponents, etc. There are quite a few things still that I would like GnW to have and think that he should have, but ultimately couldn't get through (even small things) because of neuances and viewpoints from other perspectives that I had to go: ah ****, i didn't think about how that would interact.

it kinda sucks, but i think ideally we either have to tough through these unfavorable MUs or pick a diff character for them

 

[Dakpo]

I understand. Maybe giving GnW a projectile that interacted with opponents in neutral would make him too strong. I would like to have tried some Dev builds with this in mind.

 

[jtm94]

Bacon was terrible before against Marth and Roy.

Ohwell Roy dies off upthrow and Marth takes bair to fair.
I think I can handle Marth with Sheik, but Sheik vs Roy is harder because he's dumb.

 

[Dakpo]

Ohwell Roy dies off upthrow and Marth takes bair to fair.

Seems a tad over simplified >___>

 

[jtm94]

Seems a tad over simplified >___>

The simpler the better. The entire game is just don't get hit. So the Marth MU is bair more. That's how Umbreon gives advice, been talking to him for too long. He scraped me as Marth and Roy handily. Roy's weight and fall speed literally make it possible to KO him on contact. His worse recovery makes it easier, however, his arguably better combo game than Marth's is scary and better conversions. CC into anything.. Marth just makes times tough for GnW. He doesn't have anything crazy crazy, we just get outspaced cut and dry.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

The simpler the better. The entire game is just don't get hit. So the Marth MU is bair more. That's how Umbreon gives advice, been talking to him for too long. He scraped me as Marth and Roy handily. Roy's weight and fall speed literally make it possible to KO him on contact. His worse recovery makes it easier, however, his arguably better combo game than Marth's is scary and better conversions. CC into anything.. Marth just makes times tough for GnW. He doesn't have anything crazy crazy, we just get outspaced cut and dry.

It makes it even harder with the creation of the Mini-Meat (which is made in China). Against Marth I go Sheik, that's my MU advice.
lol Not really! With Marth my advice is to stay grounded most of the time. You can duck under Marth's standing grab, which is what any Marth worth his salt will be using. So by punishing that you can teach them to use running grabs, which you can spot-dodge and still be able to punish. CCing his attempts to d-tilt can get you a d-tilt conversion yourself. Anything else lacks the range and ability to set him up for a fair/nair. As for edgeguards go as deep as you can! Just by taking away his jump you can get the gimp, since you can recover better than he. As soon as he's offstage chase him with a FFled fair, even if you sourspot it will still lead to a gimp. If you miss then try to stage-spike him, it's really easy because of his linear recovery.

 

[Dakpo]

Would you guys mind critiquing a match vs Seeethlon for me then? Maybe Im just thinking about it all wrong

 

[Metmetm3t]

Which one? One thing I know for sure is that in 3.5 the chain throw on Roy is real.

 

[Dakpo]

Which one? One thing I know for sure is that in 3.5 the chain throw on Roy is real.

We have a chain grab? what changed from last update

 

[Metmetm3t]

Every character's throw release points has been corrected from some workaround that was present in 3.0. I'm pretty sure it didn't work in 3.0, but last time I play tested against Ryker it seemed pretty reliable from maybe 10 to 70.

The scary thing is, and maybe I shouldn't be letting this out, but he has a pseudo chain throw on us too. From 0 to 40-ish a Down Throw that isn't DIed well leads to regrabs or FSmash, but Down Throw is really fast, and if you aren't pre-DIing, get ready to have a bad time.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, gw can cg semi ffers for around 3 grabs now at 0 into uair -> stuff. It's good.

 

[Black Bean]

you guys are talking about uthrow right? (dumb question I know)