"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[DarkStarStorm]

Just use a different character. It's not worth trying to use G&W against Marth. Or better yet, just give up this joke mod and play Smash 4 instead.

If you're not going to post anything positive then please take your negativity somewhere else.

On a more positive note:
Something I need desperate help with is G&W's combo game. I only play against CPUs right now because I have yet to set up netplay and I cannot play normal Wifi because mine stinks. Because of that my combo game is very lacking, could you guys tell me how to combo different weights with Up-air? There simply aren't enough G&W videos to help me with that.

 

[jtm94]

You probably don't wanna hear this, but you just need a feel for it. Weight and fall speed both factor in greatly on UpB combos. Also note you can DI away from UpB so if you get no follow-ups as in them flying away from you they just DId good. Luckily UpB hits on frame 1 so unless they expect it you should get follow ups.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

You probably don't wanna hear this, but you just need a feel for it. Weight and fall speed both factor in greatly on UpB combos. Also note you can DI away from UpB so if you get no follow-ups as in them flying away from you they just DId good. Luckily UpB hits on frame 1 so unless they expect it you should get follow ups.

I said up-air, not up-b...

 

[shapular]

"Don't play G&W against Marth" is definitely legit good advice, though. I wouldn't play against a Marth anywhere close to my skill level with G&W in any game (not sure about Smash 4, haven't played the matchup). It's just that one matchup that he loses 80% of the time in every game.

Everything I know about PM G&W combos I learned from watching Nintendude and practicing a lot. Like Jtm said (it's relevant to up air too), it's one of those things you have to get a feel for and it's easy to lose if you're not practicing it regularly. It can take a long time to really get down too. Basically, depending on percent, fall speed, and weight, you can chain uair into another uair, nair, fair, dair, side B, up B, or even bucket. You may or may not need to jump, so you'll have to react properly to follow up.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

"Don't play G&W against Marth" is definitely legit good advice, though. I wouldn't play against a Marth anywhere close to my skill level with G&W in any game (not sure about Smash 4, haven't played the matchup). It's just that one matchup that he loses 80% of the time in every game.

Everything I know about PM G&W combos I learned from watching Nintendude and practicing a lot. Like Jtm said (it's relevant to up air too), it's one of those things you have to get a feel for and it's easy to lose if you're not practicing it regularly. It can take a long time to really get down too. Basically, depending on percent, fall speed, and weight, you can chain uair into another uair, nair, fair, dair, side B, up B, or even bucket. You may or may not need to jump, so you'll have to react properly to follow up.

Thanks. I heard from TKBreezy that Game and Watch has a guaranteed combo against every character out of up-throw, what might that be? Up-air is not guaranteed, is it an up-b combo?

 

[Sandshadow]

With Game and Watches combo game i usually prefer to use f-air all the way. If u really need to use u-air you will have a much easier time comboing it against heavy weights such as fox or Ganon. To start off the combo i normally get a few u-tilts and then a shorthop forward air. If u really want to get more creative i'd start playing around with platforms. If the person doesnt tech roll, and sometimes even if they do, u can follow up with nair for either a quick gimp or a kill.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

With Game and Watches combo game i usually prefer to use f-air all the way. If u really need to use u-air you will have a much easier time comboing it against heavy weights such as fox or Ganon. To start off the combo i normally get a few u-tilts and then a shorthop forward air. If u really want to get more creative i'd start playing around with platforms. If the person doesnt tech roll, and sometimes even if they do, u can follow up with nair for either a quick gimp or a kill.

I usually take them to a stage with low platforms and depending on their weight I get this combo in: Up-tilt, up-air, L-cancel (on the platform) up-tilt, up-air, up-air, side-b.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Thanks. I heard from TKBreezy that Game and Watch has a guaranteed combo against every character out of up-throw, what might that be? Up-air is not guaranteed, is it an up-b combo?

Breezy isn't a reliable source of G&W information. G&W's throw game is more complex than what a commentator can make out just from watching.

G&W has a mixup between forward and back throw where the opponent is forced to guess on there DI. If you make them guess wrong they will go straight up and the follow ups will be free. If they guess right then they will get sent far away and follow ups will be difficult (but it is possible at some percents with good DI reaction). Up-throw doesn't play into the mixup because it always sends them high and their DI will help no matter what, so Up-throw is actually a pretty weak option.

I have played enough matches that I can say with tested experience that the first level meta (playing against someone new to G&W) is for them to always DI into the stage (they don't want to get edgeguarded). A more experienced player will eventually catch on and will start to tend towards DI off the stage (they would rather take the risk of edgeguard since G&W can't dash dance over the air).

When you really want to mess with their heads you will start adding in Down-throw. In theory, it's inferior because teching means G&W can't react to your DI, he has to guess too. But teching into the edge of the stage isn't going to help you out. And if you properly tech chase them the reward is a DSmash, FSmash, FTilt or re-grab. All of which are great rewards.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Breezy isn't a reliable source of G&W information. G&W's throw game is more complex than what a commentator can make out just from watching.

G&W has a mixup between forward and back throw where the opponent is forced to guess on there DI. If you make them guess wrong they will go straight up and the follow ups will be free. If they guess right then they will get sent far away and follow ups will be difficult (but it is possible at some percents with good DI reaction). Up-throw doesn't play into the mixup because it always sends them high and their DI will help no matter what, so Up-throw is actually a pretty weak option.

I have played enough matches that I can say with tested experience that the first level meta (playing against someone new to G&W) is for them to always DI into the stage (they don't want to get edgeguarded). A more experienced player will eventually catch on and will start to tend towards DI off the stage (they would rather take the risk of edgeguard since G&W can't dash dance over the air).

When you really want to mess with their heads you will start adding in Down-throw. In theory, it's inferior because teching means G&W can't react to your DI, he has to guess too. But teching into the edge of the stage isn't going to help you out. And if you properly tech chase them the reward is a DSmash, FSmash, FTilt or re-grab. All of which are great rewards.

You forgot Up-smash as a follow-up to d-throw. Just Dacus it and you can get easy kills.

What I've found is that yes everything you said is true about f-thow and b-throw, however if they DI away (offstage) then I've found that jumping offstage and using side-b is a followup at certain percents. It's a fantastic way to edge-guard and can be swapped for fair should they be expecting the followup.

 

[MrLul]

Is there any reliable ways to combo into down b? I feel like I'm always wasting it when fighting Marios.

 

[Sandshadow]

Is there any reliable ways to combo into down b? I feel like I'm always wasting it when fighting Marios.

I find that a down air to jab will work. I think it only works if u can get the spike then the landing hit that happens at the end of dair's animation. They normally wont expect the jab so either u get the reset or u can tech chase, or u can follow up with you down tilt

 

[jtm94]

just jab can lead into it if they don't CC, or landing/meteor hitbox of dair. UpB can lead into it too.

 

[shapular]

Up throw to bucket works at like 0% (on Zelda anyway), but I don't know if it's a true combo and you might have to turn around with your bucket which is kind of hard.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Is there any reliable ways to combo into down b? I feel like I'm always wasting it when fighting Marios.

Any combo that can end with side-b (up-air juggles, jab reset). Also I believe that you can use to tech-chase with d-throw...

 

[1FD]

Marth beats G&W for FREE in PM?
Wat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMajdpoMUbc

NYYYYOOOOOOOO

 

[shapular]

Marth beats G&W for FREE in PM?
Wat?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMajdpoMUbc

NYYYYOOOOOOOO

That's Melee, bro. Are you blind?

Okay fine, you got me. Marth wins 95% of the time in Melee. Might be like 80% in PM. Btw, apparently The Moon stomped Qerb in losers.

 

[jtm94]

Can GnW still tech while going through platforms? I don't think he can, but I suck. He should get that back.

 

[MrLul]

What do you do against Roy and Falco? Falco's lazers just screw me over and Roy crouch cancel punishes my approaches.

 

[shapular]

You wait for Falco to finally be nerfed and crouch cancelling to be taken out of the game. And then you realize that PMBR will never have enough sense to do either of those and move on to Smash 4.

 

[MrLul]

You wait for Falco to finally be nerfed and crouch cancelling to be taken out of the game. And then you realize that PMBR will never have enough sense to do either of those and move on to Smash 4.

But Falco doesn't need nerfs and crouch canceling should be nerfed, not removed completely. This is a MU thread, right? From what I see whenever somebody asks for MU advice you respond with this stuff all the time.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah Shapular you need to stay on point.
Against Falco use bucket when you can safely, it won't be super strong, but it will be extremely disjoint and a super safe edgeguard.

Against Roy I played that MU today. You need to be very careful and bait moves then grab and punish. His fall speed allows for throws into any aerial as long as you follow his DI. You really just need to punish very well.

 

[Black Bean]

Personally, I think dthrow is a godsend. If your opponent doesn't tech, then you have dsmash, fsmash, dtilt, side-b follow ups. I've found that if they do tech, it's usually away instead of behind. At first, you can usually follow this up with a short hop side-b, another grab, or a fair. If they get fast enough to shield a techchased side-b, then the shffld fair is a guaranteed follow up if you read the tech correctly. This may not be so true as you get into higher competitive play.

As for uthrow, I believe it might be a guaranteed nair on fast fallers at low percents. I surmise you could also up-b follow up and take your combo game from there. I'm not completely sure. I'm too addicted to dthrow and need to learn uthrow more.

Digression: I got my first throw ko with gnw yesterday. I trapped a (nooby) falco on the side of warioware with repeated jabs. I got him up to about 250% and back threw him into the blast wall xD (bad DI probably, but I celebrated anyway).

 

[MrLul]

Personally, I think dthrow is a godsend. If your opponent doesn't tech, then you have dsmash, fsmash, dtilt, side-b follow ups. I've found that if they do tech, it's usually away instead of behind. At first, you can usually follow this up with a short hop side-b, another grab, or a fair. If they get fast enough to shield a techchased side-b, then the shffld fair is a guaranteed follow up if you read the tech correctly. This may not be so true as you get into higher competitive play.

As for uthrow, I believe it might be a guaranteed nair on fast fallers at low percents. I surmise you could also up-b follow up and take your combo game from there. I'm not completely sure. I'm too addicted to dthrow and need to learn uthrow more.

Digression: I got my first throw ko with gnw yesterday. I trapped a (nooby) falco on the side of warioware with repeated jabs. I got him up to about 250% and back threw him into the blast wall xD (bad DI probably, but I celebrated anyway).

For D Throw, if they tech you can dacus into them too.

 

[Black Bean]

For D Throw, if they tech you can dacus into them too.

Definitely. Or gatling combo. I just like the swag and fraudulence that short hop hammer involves.

 

[jtm94]

Gatling combo is really good. Anything to land his upsmash is good because it does like 20%. The landing hitbox of dair even goes into upsmash, I used that yesterday and it was awesome. On the topic of DACUS I hate that it doesn't work out of Dthrow tech against characters with worse techs. You just fly past them, but the good is that you can downthrow tech chase a character like Squirtle or Toon Link for hours because their tech makes them near unplayable as you repeatedly grab them. As for Dthrow > jab > whatever, some characters can avoid all follow ups by SDIing the jab into the air and away. I've had characters like Jiggs, Olimar, and I believe Pika to escape before I could hammer them or even grab them in some cases

People need to boost grab more, it's so dumb. It beats CC and can work on heavies for a little while. It's main use is on shields though because if you catch someone with it like twice your opponent shields more cautiously.

Upthrow + side throws are really good because everything is the same so they have to always try to tech and in doing that they can forget to DI. If you upthrow and they DI to the side they end up lower to the ground and landing things like SH nair can be even easier at higher %. I am finding that upthrow goes into any aerial on a lot of characters, pretty much all at 0%. I've used it on Snake, Yoshi, DK with some success. It's just dumb against Fox, Falco, Wolf, Roy, Lucas, Diddy. The spacies fall a little faster so having some % on them sends them high enough to nair, at 0% they will hit the ground before it's out so just CG them for however much percent and throw the way you expect them to DI against and they go nowhere.

What are people doing at the edge to get back on? I try to ledge drop below an advance then rising uair > ledge regrab or just UpB through them and tech chase them on a platform usually. I have face opponents who have CCd or reacted to these and I die. I find characters with significant disjoint difficult to get back on stage against. Roy, Marth, Olimar, Ice Climbers do dumb stuff with the frost breath and the mini glaciers.

 

[Black Bean]

Gatling combo is really good. Anything to land his upsmash is good because it does like 20%. The landing hitbox of dair even goes into upsmash, I used that yesterday and it was awesome. On the topic of DACUS I hate that it doesn't work out of Dthrow tech against characters with worse techs. You just fly past them, but the good is that you can downthrow tech chase a character like Squirtle or Toon Link for hours because their tech makes them near unplayable as you repeatedly grab them. As for Dthrow > jab > whatever, some characters can avoid all follow ups by SDIing the jab into the air and away. I've had characters like Jiggs, Olimar, and I believe Pika to escape before I could hammer them or even grab them in some cases

People need to boost grab more, it's so dumb. It beats CC and can work on heavies for a little while. It's main use is on shields though because if you catch someone with it like twice your opponent shields more cautiously.

Upthrow + side throws are really good because everything is the same so they have to always try to tech and in doing that they can forget to DI. If you upthrow and they DI to the side they end up lower to the ground and landing things like SH nair can be even easier at higher %. I am finding that upthrow goes into any aerial on a lot of characters, pretty much all at 0%. I've used it on Snake, Yoshi, DK with some success. It's just dumb against Fox, Falco, Wolf, Roy, Lucas, Diddy. The spacies fall a little faster so having some % on them sends them high enough to nair, at 0% they will hit the ground before it's out so just CG them for however much percent and throw the way you expect them to DI against and they go nowhere.

What are people doing at the edge to get back on? I try to ledge drop below an advance then rising uair > ledge regrab or just UpB through them and tech chase them on a platform usually. I have face opponents who have CCd or reacted to these and I die. I find characters with significant disjoint difficult to get back on stage against. Roy, Marth, Olimar, Ice Climbers do dumb stuff with the frost breath and the mini glaciers.

Have you tried uthrow-utilt on low % spacies? Additionally, utilt seems to act pretty fast out of dthrow on failed techs. Also what is boost grab and CC?

As far as recovering goes, sweetspotting is very very important but difficult on stages where you can't see yourself like warioware. If I'm having a tough time sweetspotting or my opponent is a ledge champ I like to recover high and come down with a dair or bair if possible. I've also seen some watches use their up-b before their second jump recovering to mix things up and have a little more acting power. I haven't implemented into my game yet but it seemed to work very well to me.

If you're on the edge trying to get back I like to drop quickly, double jump, and fair. Even the sourspot will do, and you can follow up a sweet spot by setting up some bacon. I bet you could even replace the fair with side-b if you're feeling audacious. Maybe a nair would be safer because you'll be farther from the disjoint that counters watch so well on the ledge.

Also dair hitbox to usmash is only there if they don't tech. But it's ****ing fire when you hit it. If I find my opponent learning to tech out of the landing hitbox I'll follow it with a dtilt instead.

 

[jtm94]

Ohyes upthrow utilt regrab is awesome.

Boost grab is gatling combo, but instead of inputting upsmash you input grab with the same timing and it cancels to grab. CC is crouch cancel.

I've tried UpB before double jump and it is good. I'm sure it will be gone in 3.5 though.

I will try more fair, but I am quite bad with fair and always get punished. SideB is hilarious to recover with. you can ledge drop then double jump single bacon and regrab the ledge.

I just recently faced my buddies Olimar and I got crushed. That MU was annoying when he first picked him up, but now I struggle to take 2 stocks off and just get 0-deathed off of grabs

 

[Strong Badam]

*unrelated thoughts*
G&W vs Meta Knight is so hard x__x
I have much to learn in the ways of G&W. I think I'm the 2nd best G&W but I'm not playing this character anywhere near optimally. But I do cool things sometimes :>

Can't wait until I'm in Dallas and can learn even more from @ Dakpo -sensei :3

 

[jtm94]

GnW is hard vs a lot of characters, Dakpo is the man.
Artimus is pretty cool too.

I've been grinding GnW, but I don't feel comfortable in unknown MUs with him.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

You wait for Falco to finally be nerfed and crouch cancelling to be taken out of the game. And then you realize that PMBR will never have enough sense to do either of those and move on to Smash 4.

If you keep this sort of thing up I will be forced to report you. This sort of negativity and off topic, un-helpful form of complaining should not be allowed.

GnW is hard vs a lot of characters, Dakpo is the man.
Artimus is pretty cool too.

I've been grinding GnW, but I don't feel comfortable in unknown MUs with him.

An unknown G&W MU for me is Samus, I just cannot get combos in! She is can space better, escape as well, combo better, and move faster than Mr. Game. The best thing I can do is duck under rockets than punish an approach with bair or something.

I feel like there are more unknown MU than known, but I can still supply the Falco MU.
To me the Falco MU is all about respect, you get him to respect you by using the bucket CONSTANTLY to train him not to laser-camp. Getting spacie combos into side-b/fair/nair finishers allows you to edge-guard Falco extremely well. As for the pillar: do not up-b to escape if he is above you, use nair/fair. Use up-b after the shine to escape the dair, because the dair defeats G&W's Up-b. As for edgeguarding, using bacon doesn't work if he can side-b, if he has to up-b then the bacon is useless. Basically if he side-b to the stage just shield and grab him, if he up-b then use dair/nair/fair depending on his position, and if he side-b to the ledge then start using bacon to hope for a successful edgeguard.

I've tried UpB before double jump and it is good. I'm sure it will be gone in 3.5 though.

I think that the length of up-b will be nerfed, not the jump afterwards. If the length of up-b is nerfed than his combo game in my opinion will get a buff from that. Though that is a subject for another thread.

 

[QERB]

That's Melee, bro. Are you blind?

Okay fine, you got me. Marth wins 95% of the time in Melee. Might be like 80% in PM. Btw, apparently The Moon stomped Qerb in losers.

If you consider a double 1-stock a stomp, then sure.

 

[shapular]

If you consider a double 1-stock a stomp, then sure.

I was just going off memory of reading your post from two months ago or whenever. I didn't mean to libel the great QERB.

If you keep this sort of thing up I will be forced to report you. This sort of negativity and off topic, un-helpful form of complaining should not be allowed.

I've unwatched this thread so I won't be tempted to make more bad posts.

I think that the length of up-b will be nerfed, not the jump afterwards. If the length of up-b is nerfed than his combo game in my opinion will get a buff from that. Though that is a subject for another thread.

A PMBR guy I know told me they were thinking about taking out the jump. That was three months go so I have no idea what's become of that idea. I don't know what he's supposed to do without it since it helps form the basis of his combo game. Maybe it'd be okay if they gave him fishbowl back.

 

[Dakpo]

I feel like there are more unknown MU than known, but I can still supply the Falco MU.
To me the Falco MU is all about respect, you get him to respect you by using the bucket CONSTANTLY to train him not to laser-camp.

This only works if the falco is baaaaaad. I co-main falco and I looove when other GnWs try and bucket. Not only is it a free pillar combo but if GnW tries to bucket you can just fill his bucket up on purpose and it doesn't matter. A lazer filled bucket does like 10%? Falco, should be domminating this match-up UNLESS you man up and learn to reflect shield hist laserz back at him.

Getting spacie combos into side-b/fair/nair finishers allows you to edge-guard Falco extremely well. As for the pillar: do not up-b to escape if he is above you, use nair/fair. Use up-b after the shine to escape the dair, because the dair defeats G&W's Up-b. As for edgeguarding, using bacon doesn't work if he can side-b, if he has to up-b then the bacon is useless.

I just Ftilt or Dtilt to edge guard spacies

 

[jtm94]

Bucket is pretty slow if you absorb a projectile, the only fast part is how you instant release, but 1 Falco laser would do like 3% and probably be CCd. The thing that SUCKS EGGS is the Fox MU because when you absorb lasers you falls much faster during the bucket, so Fox can just shoot into your bucket while recovering and you fall like a rock. Someone help you if he fills the bucket and you need it to recover because having a full bucket is a blessing and a curse. I still wish GnW's bucket capped out at like 300% damage like melee and not 60%. It makes no difference because full capped bucket is a OHKO on near anyone, but still!

The only MU I really like bucket is Zelda because dins are so free. Mario and Lucario yield powerful buckets, but they can punish the collection so it's a mixup of instant release or just collection.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Bucket is pretty slow if you absorb a projectile, the only fast part is how you instant release, but 1 Falco laser would do like 3% and probably be CCd. The thing that SUCKS EGGS is the Fox MU because when you absorb lasers you falls much faster during the bucket, so Fox can just shoot into your bucket while recovering and you fall like a rock. Someone help you if he fills the bucket and you need it to recover because having a full bucket is a blessing and a curse. I still wish GnW's bucket capped out at like 300% damage like melee and not 60%. It makes no difference because full capped bucket is a OHKO on near anyone, but still!

The only MU I really like bucket is Zelda because dins are so free. Mario and Lucario yield powerful buckets, but they can punish the collection so it's a mixup of instant release or just collection.

In the Fox MU the bucket is totally worthless. It's so bad that if there wasn't endlag to it you could use a full bucket to jab-reset lol.

You guys won't have to worry about Zelda in 3.5...

 

[shapular]

In the Fox MU the bucket is totally worthless. It's so bad that if there wasn't endlag to it you could use a full bucket to jab-reset lol.

That's hilarious.

You guys won't have to worry about Zelda in 3.5...

That makes me happy and sad at the same time. She's one of my secondaries and I love using her but she's definitely a bit too good and needed to be nerfed, and I was never a big fan of her design. I just hope all the characters who are as good as or better than her get nerfed too, but that includes Fox and Falco so I feel like that won't happen.

 

[jtm94]

Zelda isn't nearly as problematic as the other top characters, but she is problematic nonetheless. Her design isn't interactive yadda yadda. She is by no means, "too good" though. She just strays from the design goals for Project M.

I'm excited for many characters to be tweaked and 3.5 should be much more enjoyable. We will have better MUs with a more Melee-themed cast.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zelda isn't nearly as problematic as the other top characters, but she is problematic nonetheless. Her design isn't interactive yadda yadda. She is by no means, "too good" though. She just strays from the design goals for Project M.

I'm excited for many characters to be tweaked and 3.5 should be much more enjoyable. We will have better MUs with a more Melee-themed cast.

Zelda's just fallen behind the meta and she needs some speed increases and less kill-centric aerial game.

 

[GuccitheGreat]

Guys im having trouble vs luigi. whenever i want to go in i get caught up between his fireballs and if not that when i jump over them nairs and fairs await me any help?

 

[jtm94]

He has a pretty good anti-combo game. Bait approach then just dtilt has always worked for me. Bacon can force a wavedash or DownB in then just try to punish as hard as you can, respect his power he's much stronger than people think and his nair will get him out of anything.