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"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
  • Strong Disadvantage:

  • Disadvantage:

  • Slight Disadvantage:

  • Even:

  • Slight Advantage:

  • Advantage:

  • Strong Advantage:
Code:
Bowser - 
Captain Falcon - 
Charizard - 
King DeDeDe - 
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong
Falco -
Fox - 
Mr. Game & Watch - Even
Ganondorf - 
Ike - 
Ivysaur - 
Jigglypuff - 
Link - 
Lucario - 
Lucas - 
Luigi - 
Mario - 
Marth - 
Ness - 
Peach -
Pikachu - 
Pit - 
Robotic Operating Buddy - 
Sheik -
Snake - 
Sonic - 
Squirtle - 
Toon Link - 
Wario - 
Wolf - 
Zelda -
Zero Suit Samus -
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
Honestly. As with any other character you just adapt to the matchup. Personally I think sonic and squirtle approaches are the easiest to shutdown. If you see a side-B approach, just Fsmash into it. In my experience the lingering hitbox will destroy that approach, along with Ftilt or Dtilt. Any character that loves dash attacking, WD back and Dtilt into up+B -> Fair, Nair, Uair. or Dtilt into SH Fair, Nair, Uair depending on % and opponent DI.

With projectile happy characters it's obvious to close the distance as fast as you can either by using his low duck and WD toward the opponent like Hbox's Puff does going under lasers. Or jump over lol.

I'd say that G&W has the hardest times against floaty characters like Puff because Dtilt sends them too high to combo and the basic survival rate with good DI. In my opinion, G&W has a hayday with spacies because you can shut down linear horizontal approaches with a fast response to WD and/or Dtilt. Plus Uptilt chains destroy fastfallers along with a well timed DACUS or tech chase after an uptilt chain. Edgeguarding is easy with the hitbox of Fair and Dtilt. I haven't even touched on G&W's grab game but if you have a problem with a specific matchup ask me.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
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Sunny Mobile, AL
With the metagame this fresh I'm not confident enough to call out matchups, but Marth seems pretty awful as it stands. His fair, fsmash alone beat out a huge part of G&W's mixups and pressure. G&W also doesn't have the survivability factor that is so difficult for Marth to handle.
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
Actually now that I remember, the Marth G&W matchup is pretty bad. I got destroyed my first match just due to range and spacing. My solution would be to SH double bacon to close the distance and proceed. Gotta throw out those random hitboxes for a momentary stun to capitalize on.

:phone:
 

Chaos_Blasta

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Messages
288
Location
Mexico
Bowser vs GnW was like, 70-30 Bowser in 2.1

With all the buffs and changes GnW got in 2.5 though i would not be surprised if this changed.
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
Bowser vs GnW was like, 70-30 Bowser in 2.1

With all the buffs and changes GnW got in 2.5 though i would not be surprised if this changed.
Yea it has changed in my opinion for the better. But no matter what you just gotta dodge his smashes lol or you're done

:phone:
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
Link and Toon Link can camp G&W pretty hard with projectiles along with their grapple range. It's very hard for G&W to pressure and attack.

:phone:
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
Bowser - Slight disadvantage due to range but more endlag to punish on.
Captain Falcon - Slight disadvantage due to Falcon's speed and power. But can easily be edgeguarded.
Charizard -
King DeDeDe - Strong Disadvantage due to DeDeDe's range.
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong
Falco - Even - recoveries are easily guarded and linear approaches can be shutdown. But G&W can be combo'd to hell and back.
Fox - Even - ^Same
Mr. Game & Watch - Even
Ganondorf - Disadvantage due to Ganon's sheer power and proper spacing.
Ike - Disadvantage ^same
Ivysaur -
Jigglypuff - Slight Disadvantage. Too floaty to be combo'd but DTilt and Upsmash kill early.
Link - Strong Disadvantage
Lucario -
Lucas -
Luigi -
Mario -
Marth - Strong Disadvantage
Ness -
Peach -
Pikachu -
Pit - Still deciding this one.
Robotic Operating Buddy -
Sheik -
Snake -
Sonic - Strong Advantage due to sonic's linear approaches. Also the spring does not gimp G&W if Up+B jnto it.
Squirtle - advantage due to linear apprroaches
Toon Link - Strong Disadvantage
Wario -
Wolf -
Zelda -
Zero Suit Samus - Slight Advantage from absorbing neutral B to fill bucket. ZSS has the range but defintely has more endlag to punish than Marth.

This is what I have so far.

:phone:
 

Magus420

Smash Master
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Close to Trenton, NJ Posts: 4,071
Crouch -> powershield helps a lot against projectiles like T/Link's you can't bucket. Let it get over you then do it and it makes it really easy, then WD out of the PS or whatever.
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Florida
I can powershield the first wave of projectiles but T/Link's shield passively blocks the reflected projectile. And when they consistently angle the boomerang it is extremely hard to close the distance without being KB'd and losing ground. On small stages this isnt a problem but bigger stages like FD is a big problem for me.

:phone:
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
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Sunny Mobile, AL
I'm not sure how good Toon Link's mobility is in this version, but in Melee and Brawl he had the ability to just outrun G&W while keeping boomerangs and bombs on the screen, making it an eventual win by attrition. It doesn't help that most of G&W's aerial approaches can be thwarted by dair or uair. Previously the strategy was to try to catch T.Link with a fair or dtilt to open him up for a combo, but I'm unsure about how T.Link's new jab and bair might factor into that.

The good news is T.Link's Up-B is so terrible now that the potential to one touch kill him is much higher. It'll be interesting to see if that's where the matchup goes.
 

`dazrin

Smash Champion
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Vancouver, BC, Canada
The good news is T.Link's Up-B is so terrible now that the potential to one touch kill him is much higher. It'll be interesting to see if that's where the matchup goes.
Against a TL who knows how to recover, (through AGT) getting "one-touch-killed" isn't as likely as you might expect.

Anyways, I don't know anything about the GnW vs TLink MU. I'd imagine it'd be pretty easy to keep GnW out with projectiles and a dthrow -> dair/upb will certainly kill a GnW pretty fast considering how quickly you can rack up damage with TL in a short time. It's just speculation, though- I don't actually have the experience to back up my claims.
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
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Messages
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Alright thanks for the input guys. One of my friends has a pretty good TL and he camps the crap out of me. My only option is to capitalize on a mistake and punish or catch him with an aerial to combo like darkm3tr01d said. I'm still working out a way around it and I'll post anything that I find.
 

KayB

Smash Master
BRoomer
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GW vs Falcon to me feels the same as Samus vs Falcon. Falcon can get gimped, but on stage it gets really ugly fast.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
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drowning in pixels
I actually like the Falcon matchup. He's easy to combo and you can get huge punishes if they mis-space something (or you crouch under it). He also has slow tech animations so it's relatively easy to tech-chase him with Dthrow.
I wouldn't say it's in our favor because of how early we die, but I wouldn't say it's particularly bad either.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
Mostly. G&W cannot crouch under a certain part of C.Falcon's dash grab. But what kind of Falcon player doesn't j.c.grab constantly?

G&W can also duck under Gannondorf's grabs, Zelda's standing grab, and --believe it or not-- luigi & peach's grabs.
 

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
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Messages
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i think GW actually performs well against the space animals. he outranges and prioritizes them severely. fox and wolf will out pace him in general, but if you play defensively then you can use your big hitboxes to your advantage and beat out the likes of nair and dair approaches. you can also prevent blaster approaches with his new mechanic on down b (this could be almost game breaking in the falco MU, cuz he doesnt have the speed that fox and falco have to overwhelm GW). He combos and edge guards them hard, and it doesnt take much to send their light frames sideways off the stage with a fair, ftilt, or dsmash semi spike. Im sure many people will jump right on the "fox and falco are god" bandwagon but if you look at the problems that people usually have with fox and falco (nair and bair priority, pressure on shield, laser approaches, quick kill moves), then you can see how game and watch can easily address all of those. with his great SHFFL in his bair and fair, he can shut down any nair or bair pressure that fox or falco can supply. as a GW, u definitely would not want to sit in you sheild, so time your attacks with proper reaction to ur opponents approaches, and utilize your good WD to keep careful control over your position. If you created a defensive wall of high priority attacks in front of you, then they are going to have one hell of time getting in on you. your defense will lead straight into combos that can kill them early. sure you can get killed pretty early from them, but prevention here is the key word, and also, who else doesnt get killed early by them? Overall i think wolf and fox will be a tad harder for GW than falco is for him. i would say the falco MU is in his favor, and the fox/wolf MUs are maybe even to slightly advantageous.

Overall, i feel that if GW can outrange a character, then they sure as hell better have some projectiles that he cant absorb or deal with, or they better have enough of an aerial game to punish him in places other than the ground (like jiggs and wario will fall into this category), as his overall aerial speed, mobility, and quickness is decidedly average, and so is the end lag on many of his aerials.

On an additional note, i think GW has some really good shield pressure options. With his uair and dair having a second, grounded hit, it really contributes to his SHFFL and ability to poke beneath an opponents shield that has already diminished a tad from the first hits of those attacks. I dont know the frame data on them, but they seem to have very low lag, and GW has enough quick ground attacks (like jab and dtilt) that i think he could be advantageous on block against shield grabs. he also has his bair which generally eats shields for breakfast anyways, his great, ranged tilts (dtilt especially for its low hitbox), his powerful, ranged smash attacks, and even his judgement hammer 3 which instantly breaks shields (tho it is extremely un reliable to hope to get this on command, but i guess it shouldnt be ignored).
 

YellaFeva

Smash Cadet
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i think GW actually performs well against the space animals. he outranges and prioritizes them severely. fox and wolf will out pace him in general, but if you play defensively then you can use your big hitboxes to your advantage and beat out the likes of nair and dair approaches. you can also prevent blaster approaches with his new mechanic on down b (this could be almost game breaking in the falco MU, cuz he doesnt have the speed that fox and falco have to overwhelm GW). He combos and edge guards them hard, and it doesnt take much to send their light frames sideways off the stage with a fair, ftilt, or dsmash semi spike. Im sure many people will jump right on the "fox and falco are god" bandwagon but if you look at the problems that people usually have with fox and falco (nair and bair priority, pressure on shield, laser approaches, quick kill moves), then you can see how game and watch can easily address all of those. with his great SHFFL in his bair and fair, he can shut down any nair or bair pressure that fox or falco can supply.
I definitely agree with your statements about the fox and falco MU. Edgeguarding is so simple and effective + spacing your attacks well destroys spacies. And you're right about stopping blaster approaches. I did this today, in fact, I was facing a falco and he blaster approached me which I punished with his new mechanic with down+B. It's a godsend that the PMBR gave this to us.
 

G13_Flux

Smash Lord
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Messages
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it definitely is, something as simple as that really can change MU a fair amount due to the defensive options it opens up, and its ability to hinder a major portion of the oppositions game. i definitely thought for awhile about the spacie MUs, as i wanted to make sure i had all my thoughts collected on it properly cuz im sure its really hard for people to look at melee GW, then come back to PM GW and look at him as advantageous against whats thought to be the top character. but he just recieved the buffs in the right places. ALL of his ground attacks have been improved (aside from dtilt maybe cuz it was already beast), but they now all function very well on shields, have lingering hitboxes, have much less lag, and have greater power or rewards. His aerials can now all be L-cancelled, his SH is lower, and many of them too have recieved a buff in usage/power. His combo game has been buffed. his defensive and offensive games alike have been buffed through his more effective SHFFL, SH double bacon, and his up B. his WD is a little better i think. The only real issues i see with PM GW is his slow rolls, and his really light weight. cant really work around the weight except to kill ur opponent b4 they kill you, which GW does have the capability of doing easily, and to just use his big hitboxes to keep pressure away from you. I think hes a really viable character now and regardless of his tier position, the gap between him and the highest tiers has decreased a lot, giving him a lot more utility in general across the board. GW is awesome
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
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Good post Flux. You have a lot of right ideas about the spacies matchups. As of right now I would say G&W versus the Star Fox characters is pretty balanced, and they especially fun to play because keeping strong positioning is the core gameplan, which can only be achieved by maintaining a read on the opponent.

One thing you're overlooking is that Game and Watch cannot really create a wall-of-pain like you described. Using any one of his moves is a huge commitment, and though it doesn't guarantee a punish, whiffing a move is extremely dangerous. He is still all about his big hitboxes and keeping the furries back, but he works better with the pressure of his potential than their actual presence.

This does lead me to worry a little bit about the potential developing metagame around matchups like these. Because, even with Oil Panic charged and ready to go, a lame Falco, or especially Fox could cause a lot of trouble for G&W. He will have to rely on pressuring the spaces towards a ledge and keeping one step ahead of them to avoid getting lazer-lazer-lazer-Usmashed to death. Inevitably this could mean Game and Watch could have a lot of success on FD or Smashville and trouble on Dreamland and similar, but luckily for now the metagame is not that far advanced, and right now we just need to worry about utilizing GW's powerful danger-zone to keep these guys moving and make sure to capitalize on as many hits as possible.

As for the differences between each of the critters, to me, it looks like Fox will cause the most trouble as his Usmash and Uthrow->Uair are incredibly effective especially considering the depressing speed advantage he has. Falco will be closer to even since both characters are essentially dead after one combo, and Falco has to work harder than Fox to get that kill. Wolf is much less mobile than the others, so there's potential for G&W to really control him much more effectively, though a solid Wolf metagame hasn't really been developed enough to outright decide the result.
 

G13_Flux

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actually falco has far less mobility than wolf. wolf has amazing mobility in the air (better than falcos and foxs, even a tad better than CF), and hes actually only two rankings in speed behind fox believe it or not. IMO fox and wolf will cause more problems than falco will. Not only does GW have the same speed as falco, but he also severely outranges and priotizes falco, both on ground an in air (unless he tries to beat out dair with uair, i would guess they might trade hits with that, cant see GWs uair going though it completely, though i havent tested this out). they can both combo each other hard, but GW has more combos that lead to direct kills, and at lower percents. falco will do his usual dair for the killing while bair will help him too. i cant see fsmash helping out falco that much cuz GWs ground game is much better. its definitely close, but im still gonna say GW could carry a slight advantage, but definitely no more than slight.

foxs speed hurts anyone, although he cant combo GW too hard, and his blaster is much less effective against him with bucket, so racking damage will be a lot harder in this MU for fox. GW on the other hand can combo him very hard and to kill, like with falco, and he out prioritizes most of foxs moves. fox will most likely bait attacks till he gets an openning, then pressure the hell out of him. Im not sure how GWs up b fairs against foxs on shield pressure, id like to find some frame data on it, but even so theyd have to have magical timing to escape. regardless of whos in favor, i think this ones definitely still very close.

wolf is much harder to say. the same that applies to GWs combos on fox and falco apply to wolf, except wolf will probably be comboed even just a tad longer cuz of his larger weight and fall speed. The biggest differences with wolf between the other space animals is that is approach is very flexible, and he doesnt have to commit to it, and hes able to control the stage and space better with his projectile. in regards to his projectile, with proper reads, wolf can bait out a bucket from GW, and WL forward out of his blaster and beat out the projectile to him and get a free combo. Wolf, like GW, combos to kill a lot of the time, while sometimes, he will combo to set up an edge guard. all of wolfs killers will kill GW very early, and as a wolf main, i know that it can really be a matter of just one or two combos that do it for him, especially with someone of GWs weight, or lack there of. Im going to say that wolf will hold a slight advantage over GW, and this comes from experience, and a little bit of theory crafting at the tops of the metagames.

The details are all minute, and regardless of the actual outcomes, i think they are all close, giving GW a great shot at being a spacee slayer lol.

and on your point about the wall of pain, i definitely wasnt referring to in the air tactics like jiggs if thats what u though i meant. i was refferening mostly to his bair and fair, and his tilts, which all have great range and big hitboxes that can prevent and stuff approaches. those are all very quick in startup and in endlag, especially with the IASA frames on his tilts and his quick SHFFL.
 

G13_Flux

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well, whats your reasoning? dont leave me hanging here i need developed thoughts!
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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Distanced double post, but one nonetheless.

I've gathered my thoughts on 'Watch vs Wolf and I think the road to being an even (ish) match starts in neutral. When you look at the tools that Wolf has in order to try to get in, one can pretty easily observe that his range is not very impressive and that he lacks a real disjointed approach.

Blaster is a pretty decent way to get in, I guess because it sends a projectile slow enough and big enough to sometimes stuff jumps (not that you want to be above wolf with that upair anyway...) and for him to approach behind... but thankfully he lacks one of the things that makes the Fox matchup feel so abysmal, at least to me: sex kick nair.

Now don't get me wrong, his nair is good once he's in... it's kinda hard to CC, but it's really not an approach for Wolf... not in this MU. Because of this, we are able to make Wolf engage us on our own terms, as long as we manage a decent amount of stage control and stay a fair amount away from his blaster+approach range. Our good responses, at least from my experience seem to fall in three key areas, all of which are beaten by different things from Wolf, so there's like an RPS thing. First one is pretty obvious, though Watch doesn't have a great one:

- DD: I don't think I need to explain the benefits of dashdancing here though. It allows us to react and punish with something great... like grab... or the next item:

- CC Dtilt: Again, I'm not entirely sure I have to express why this move is so good. Combo starter, combo breaker, sometimes a linker, sometimes a killer. Good move.

- SH Fair: A solid answer to quite a few approaches someway or another from many characters, but pretty important vs Wolf because of his lack of a disjointed aerial when approaching.

then you have things like ftilt, up-b (especially if there's a high platform) to reset the situation, SH bair, etc, etc... but I think those are the main things in terms of the neutral game. There's more stuff that we can discuss like Wolf's poor recovery, our pretty great grab game vs FFers, his not so great tech options and on the flip side, our kinda poor reaction to sheild pressure, how CC dtilt gets beaten by wolf's double shine (thanks for showing me that StricNYN3), why it's hard to land vs him, etc, etc but I won't cover that all in this post.
 

G13_Flux

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i can definitely see your point about the disjointed aerials. Wolf actually does have slight disjoint on a couple of them, and his bair even has a tad more range than fox or falcos bairs, but thats not enough for smth like GWs fair, in any of their cases. I do see that you think the fox MU is terrible for GW, but im still gonna hold that GW plays on a level playing field with him.. In regards to wolf, something different about fox and wolf is the way that they bait and punish. wolfs bait and punish game to me is superior to fox's. his aerials have a bit more raw range than fox, his blaster wavebounce > WL is too good, and his extremely good aerial mobility and fast fall speed really give him the option of not committing to approaches and being able to punish reactions quickly; better than fox in this regards. that is the way that wolf is most likely going to play this MU, because if he does try to just run in with nairs, hes gonna get stuffed. With this being said, i do like you rock paper scissors comparison, as it does give good light to what types of approaches GW will get beat on from wolf, what he will beat wolf on, and what resets them or keeps them in neutral. based on the level of combos these two can perform, its gonna be a matter of who wins this RPS game more of the time, since once one of them is at a less favorable position, its going to mean at least a significant amount of damage, possibly death. in a short sense, you have a bait and punishing wolf (using mobility to advantage) versus an attack wall type GW (using range and priority to his advantage).

on paper this does look fairly even. when i bring fox into the mix, it looks like wolf has it easier against GW than fox does (i know u probably dont feel this way juushichi, but thats what ive seen from experience). on that note, MU experience is what pushes it over for me to say that wolf could hold a slight advantage, since my friend whos a GW main usually has a lot of touble with my wolf. but when taking into consideration skill differences and knowlege differences and what not, it could probably go either way at that point.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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And that's cool, too.

I've got one experience vs Wolf (unfortunately, I didn't even get to play Scythe who was there...) in Stric, but maybe I can play Scythe if I go to Chicago. I think you have a very good point about Wolf's baiting game because he does have an amazing DD and even out of a blaster he can choose to just... not commit, lol. The way things end up, Wolf may get the advantage... but for now I think the game will even out close to an even match so far.

I'm notoriously horrible vs Fox, so that is my bias on that.
 

Oracle

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Blaster is slow enough to where you should bucket it every time he fires one. If he tries to punish you while bucketing just unload on him
 

BRLNK88

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I'm not sure how good Toon Link's mobility is in this version, but in Melee and Brawl he had the ability to just outrun G&W while keeping boomerangs and bombs on the screen, making it an eventual win by attrition. It doesn't help that most of G&W's aerial approaches can be thwarted by dair or uair. Previously the strategy was to try to catch T.Link with a fair or dtilt to open him up for a combo, but I'm unsure about how T.Link's new jab and bair might factor into that.

The good news is T.Link's Up-B is so terrible now that the potential to one touch kill him is much higher. It'll be interesting to see if that's where the matchup goes.
G&W is actually one of TL's best MUs... lol.
G&W is light, floaty, gets camped hard and is easy to edge guard.
If TL establishes stage control, there's not much G&W can do.
 

G13_Flux

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that can backfire though. blaster being slow enough means that wolf can bait out a bucket by shooting a blaster shot, but then WL forward > dash and beat the blaster shot to you, lending him a free attack and preventing you from even using the bucket. against say falco, he does not have that liberty of mobility on his projectile, and is fully susceptible to GWs full use of a defensive bucket maneuver. This is something that i attributed to my reasoning of the wolf vs GW MU being at least even, or maybe shifted towards wolf being advantageous.
 

dettadeus

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Just played the Marth matchup a bunch last night, and it doesn't seem as bad as it could be. It's a lot of gimp and get gimped.
He took me to WarioWare in one of the matches and every stock just kept going back and forth with who wrecked who.

Space Dtilt like a god at the edge and if they don't sweetspot perfectly it's a free gimp.
 

G13_Flux

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You are right about the gimping, because thats how marth gets most of his kills anyways and its very hard for GW to land a killing blow otherwise. i think the best thing to do with the marth MU is play very cautiously and bait and punish. the tough thing about him is that he out maneuvers you in literally every way possible (running speed, air speed, jumping, WDing, DDing) and he also outranges you with like everything. one of your biggest tools to deal with him onstage imo is going to be SH double bacon. if you can out run him or outrange him, youre going to have to out zone him, and take advantage of it once u can trap him with it. its gonna be very hard to land killing blows on stage, so once hes worked offstage, then you can anihilate his recovery. he can obviously do that to you as well tho. its certainly not unwinnable for GW, and it probably isnt as bad as everyone makes it out to be, but marth just has a very difficult set of attributes to deal with, and it makes it very tough for you to overcome.
 

Oracle

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I tried to play g&w against strongbad at a tournament this weekend but the monkey was too powerful. I got really unlucky with the hammers :(. Its somewhere in kirks stream archives if you want to take a look
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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DK is a real jerk in the MU.

My experience is mostly that as long as you don't get grabbed you'll be okay. However, it's so easy to get grabbed out of stuff. I wish I would have been able to play Strong_Bad at APEX, but it didn't happen.
 

G13_Flux

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DKs up b OOS is one of few OOS moves that can consistently take away GWs shield pressure, even with spacing. i imagine that being a significant problem in the MU. also im sure his combination of range in general and power give GW very little room for mistakes. his dash attack can also power through a lot of stuff, like bacon and possibly some of GWs tilts. i have very little experience on the MU, but i can see why it would probably be tough. what specific things have you guys noticed about the MU that makes it difficult?
 

Oracle

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Yeah I would work really hard for every hit then hed get one random down b or grab and my stock would be over. Thats dk for you
 

Yung Mei

Where all da hot anime moms at
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
5,341
IMO, gnw ***** the **** out of zelda

Because she still can't approach very well, SHDB makes it hard for her to move around (IIRC, she's still vulnerable when wavelanding out of Farores Wind, even if she tries to get close to you through this, you can just toss out fTilt which lasts forever)

If she tries to reflect bacon, you can just walk up and ftilt her

iirc, ftilt hits her when she spams upb on the ledge

bucket grabs her side b

take her to Small stages like fountain of dreams imo

i need to play this matchup more, someone add thoughs plz
 
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