"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Spoon~]

You must have not played a good zelda before. Zelda poops on GaW so hard.

 

[Oracle]

Um...no? Zeldas main advantage is controlling space with side b which literally never works vs game and watch. Play slower and space better, dont fall for the zelda cheese and youll do fine

 

[dettadeus]

i feel like g&w wins, but considering how early we die it can't be too much of an advantage

i agree that literally shutting down her sideb game impacts the matchup quite a bit (and iirc we get OHKO buckets off three dins)

 

[Juushichi]

Hm... I played zhime a while back (like, back in 2.1 even) and I didn't think that the MU was all that hard. It felt close to even no matter which way you sliced it though.

 

[Metmetm3t]

The matchup seemed really back and forth when I played it. She can throw fire in places just out of bucket range which still gives her some control over your movement, her naryu's can beat out fair consistently, her dash attack is pretty strong and she has the looming threat of fair/bair that can kill G&W before 100.

On the other hand, she's just as light as you are and once G&W has control of the stage it's not too hard to keep it. The biggest annoyance is how hard it is to punish her Up-B.

 

[Yung Mei]

on a related note, usmash is the most amazing move ever

 

[Greenpoe]

G&W's up B is amazing. Hit them with a move and don't know what to do next? Just up B! It'll get you away safely and allows for followups. Getting combo'd? Up B out of it. See them approaching? Up B at the just the right moment, and you can counterattack.

 

[Yung Mei]

i just got dash attack to combo into dacus

at about 80ish percent on wolf

cpu wolf, ill test it on other chars to see if its a true combo

 

[Metmetm3t]

Yea it's a true combo in a few situations. The problem is that using G&W's dash attack like that isn't safe. So you have to risk getting comboed back. At 80% Up-Throw to Nair is a better option on fast fallers. It only works at lower percents on non-FFer's; percents where other combos are safer and do more damage.

 

[leelue]

Dash attack cancelled into grab is crazy safe . At least, by comparison.

 

[Nemiak temp]

How exactly do you DAGC? Is it as easy as it looks? (Dash attack then press grab) or is it more input specific like the DACUS. I just found out about this and haven't tried it myself.

 

[Yung Mei]

its easier to do if you cancel it into a pivot grab

just dash attack into them and hit back+grab, though to cancel it, it has to be near the very beginning of the dash attack

 

[Nguz95]

Yo what happened to this thread?
Can we talk about Marf?

 

[Rᴏb]

I'd say Marth vs G&W is pretty even, despite Marth being able to punish so hard.

Because bacon punishes are great too.

Maybe 55-45.

 

[Nguz95]

How are you using the bacon then? To keep Marth out of the air? What I see is G&W having a hard time getting in. If the Marth is playing defensively it seems like G&W has to rely on projectiles and reads, which is usually not a good combo.

 

[Yung Mei]

can't marth just fair the **** out of our bacon tho? i can't remember if fair cancels our bacon

 

[Metmetm3t]

He doesn't need to, he can just dash under them. Marth v. G&W is probably -2. He has a solid counter to basically all of our movement options and doesn't have any reason to approach since he aint scared. So can zone use out to death.

 

[Rᴏb]

How are you using the bacon then? To keep Marth out of the air? What I see is G&W having a hard time getting in. If the Marth is playing defensively it seems like G&W has to rely on projectiles and reads, which is usually not a good combo.

I feel that camping out with a projectile is inherently better than any sort of camping Marth can do. If you can force the approach and get Marth off the ground, you can juggle him or just do the standard move links for good damage. Bacon is definitely something you have to rely on, but I think it pays off enough to make the matchup closer to even than most would think.

darkm3tr01d is right about Marth's dash, but we have dtilt to deal with that approach.

Now what about Roy?

 

[Yung Mei]

roy ****s on us

 

[Nguz95]

So if the MU isn't even, what tools do we have to compensate for this? What strategies are going to make our lives easier?

 

[Rᴏb]

Other than bacon, G&W vs Marth is really about spacing. You need to respect how much range Marth (or any sword user) has, while simultaneously remembering that you have a pseudo-sword. G&W's disjointed hitboxes are just as good as any sword, but because these hitboxes linger, there is an added chance your opponent will run into them.

You really just need to follow the basic strategies which are baiting, punishing and approaching in order to take hold of the MU. The main drawback is how early G&W can die, but it's only fair because of how good he is at applying pressure and killing. Unfortunately, killing early is Marth's thing.

Why does Roy wreck us? I've never played against one.

 

[Nguz95]

Thank you. Roy is trouble because he is a crouch cancel king. At least he dies way early.

 

[Yung Mei]

his dtilt combos into everything, recovery is difficult even when you try to sweetspot the ledge (his neutral b hits below the ledge), can run under bacon, fsmash kills at like 2 percent, plenty of his moves outrange ours

the most you can do against roy is hit him when he's above you on platforms, but even then, it wont do a whole lot. dont approach cuz hell just grab you and slap you with the noodle

this is based off my experience playing one Roy l0l

ive beaten 2-3 other roys in tournament, but only because they didn't know **** about GNW, but otherwise, if they know the matchup, you might as well pick up link

 

[Metmetm3t]

The problem with saying "We have dtilt to deal with that" is that Marth doesn't have to enter G&W's dtilt range. In fact, he absolutely would rather be just outside dtilt range, because that's his tipper range. So as soon as Marth get's into that spot he is in complete control. You can't throw bacon anymore, because he's too close so G&W has to either maximum bail out which Marth can exploit for stage control, or G&W can all in and test the Marth's reaction. And throwing bacon only encourages Marth to move forward into this zone. Meanwhile, G&W doesn't have a zone even remotely like that.

G&W can box with Marth. We can punish his mistakes quite well and we can deal the damage we need to keep up. But Marth get's to control the match the whole time which in the end, gives him a great advantage.

 

[Nguz95]

Gotta stick to him like glue then. Marth's range means you can either stay just outside it and bait Marth into over-commiting, or you can be in his face all the time and punish the obvious shield grab. Personally I think a blend of the two is most efficient. Sheik doesn't have as much range as Marth, but she can force him to make mistakes. I'm sure the same is possible for G&W (maybe not to the same extent, but you know what I mean).

 

[Rᴏb]

I think saying that Marth controls the whole match is a bit of an exaggeration. Slightly better range does not equal complete control.
G&W has to respect Marth's range, sure, but it's a two way street. If we can bait an fsmash, which is bound to happen because why would Marth not fsmash if this zone is so good, we can punish it in so many ways, or at least have it clank with a tilt and reset the situation. You're right that a dtilt wouldn't hit Marth, but it would surely clank with his sword. If I'm wrong about that, then ftilt instead. You're looking at things in a vacuum where Marth never has to get in range of our attacks, but that simply doesn't happen.

This is why I think the MU is closer to even than most would think, because no one can play a perfect game and because G&W can punish just as hard as Marth can while having an arguably easier time doing so.

If we were to break down every aspect of the game (spacing, edgeguarding, combos, finishers, projectiles, techchases, etc.) and favor one character for each of these aspects, I believe it would be such a close call between even and slight advantage for Marth.

 

[Nguz95]

Here's a good example of how G&W can go even with Marth

I think it's important to see how patient Dakpo plays against Sethlon. He's not over-commiting, but rather hovering just outside Marth's tipper range.

 

[Yung Mei]

i watched that first match, and while it was well played, Dakpo threw out like 3 or 4 seemingly random DACUS's and got punished almost every single time, i dont think dacus is as good as everyone else makes it out to be because it leaves you wide open to get punished, especially against marth
@ about 4:05, dakpo gets punished with an fSmash, 2:06 gets hit by fair

 

[Nguz95]

Dacus isn't that good imo. It's like Ike's jc usmash out of his qd. It's flashy, but there are often easier, safer options.

 

[Juushichi]

No, it's more useable for this character because unlike Ike, GnW doesn't have a movement option that turns into a neutral option. And GnW will have to take risks like that because he is not as good as a movement character and sometimes really needs his way in.

@ Rᴏb , slightly better range definitely does not mean that a character wins for sure. Look at DK and Link respectively vs Marth in Melee. Comparable ranges, usually superior in the former character's favors. The difference? Mobility, speed and space control. Both of those MUs were at least 4-6 (-2) in Marth's favor. None of these three characters are really able to get down vs the others, so the punish game is sort of comparable. Marth was able to manipulate the neutral better because he was superior in those three categories. Those MUs are pretty close to even in PM (Link's Space control got a lot better, DK got an increase in mobility and a bit in space control) and both of them got better punish games.

Game and Watch has a good punish game vs Marth. Otherwise, he's lacking in mobility, speed AND stage control for the most part. We have to avoid sword and grab, and spacing around both of them generally put us outside of our own punish games. Dakpo is an amazing player playing a limited character and there are things to learn, but this is the difference in the characters.

---

Roy feels kinda annoying for many of the same reasons as Marth, but it does feel like we can punish him a lot better and probably have more chances to win neutral exchanges more often than vs Marth. @ Dakpo , you've played a fair amount of Sethlon Roy, what do you think?

 

[Dakpo]

No, it's more useable for this character because unlike Ike, GnW doesn't have a movement option that turns into a neutral option. And GnW will have to take risks like that because he is not as good as a movement character and sometimes really needs his way in.

@ Rᴏb , slightly better range definitely does not mean that a character wins for sure. Look at DK and Link respectively vs Marth in Melee. Comparable ranges, usually superior in the former character's favors. The difference? Mobility, speed and space control. Both of those MUs were at least 4-6 (-2) in Marth's favor. None of these three characters are really able to get down vs the others, so the punish game is sort of comparable. Marth was able to manipulate the neutral better because he was superior in those three categories. Those MUs are pretty close to even in PM (Link's Space control got a lot better, DK got an increase in mobility and a bit in space control) and both of them got better punish games.

Game and Watch has a good punish game vs Marth. Otherwise, he's lacking in mobility, speed AND stage control for the most part. We have to avoid sword and grab, and spacing around both of them generally put us outside of our own punish games. Dakpo is an amazing player playing a limited character and there are things to learn, but this is the difference in the characters.

---

Roy feels kinda annoying for many of the same reasons as Marth, but it does feel like we can punish him a lot better and probably have more chances to win neutral exchanges more often than vs Marth. @ Dakpo , you've played a fair amount of Sethlon Roy, what do you think?

I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAATEEE the marth match-up
Sethlon is the one who taught me how to play project M. I have spent at least 60% of my entire game time of playing this game vs his marth.
I feel the match-up is -2 AT THE VERY LEAST. I would not appose -3. Very obviously a solid counter to our character .
The character can literally juggle us from 0 to death. We have no consistent means to land. If the Marth knows the match-up, its over. gg. WE CAN NOT LAND.....we can do ok in neutral, carefully play the ground game. our F tilt clanks with his Fsmash. Bacon is useless unless we are already comboing him or are in an extremely advantageous stage position. He can fair through all of it or run in and dash attack. The only suggestion is that you might be able the bait it if you change the timing of your Short hop double bacons. The problem with this is that you have to put huge gaps in your wall of bacon.
This being said, I was very close to beating M2ks marth . I made him switch off of fox. I had a very close set during apex bracket.
again, if the marth knows the match-up and is a high level player. GGs

Roy is better for us and is a -2 or -1. I could go for either. Same thing as marth except he dies earlier, gets comboed harder, and doesnt get marths benefits for being outside our range. He has to commit a little more. But he juggles just as hard.

So far these are the only two characters to ever make me not want to use GnW. In fact, I plan on using full DDD in my next set vs sethlon.

I cannot stress the importance of this last point
I really don't care that you play X random roy/marth player all the time and do great. Play sethlon and I 100% guarentee, you will get bodied like you never knew.

@Sethlon #sethlonisthebest4life

i watched that first match, and while it was well played, Dakpo threw out like 3 or 4 seemingly random DACUS's and got punished almost every single time, i dont think dacus is as good as everyone else makes it out to be because it leaves you wide open to get punished, especially against marth
@ about 4:05, dakpo gets punished with an fSmash, 2:06 gets hit by fair

I just wanted to say that this is 3 months after I started playing PM or any game with melee physics at all. This is also 2 weeks after I got the cast off of my right hand thumb... and the last thing, this is almost a year old now. Dacus is amazing. I was still using it as a crutch when I started. I use it very very reserved and calculated now. Check out some of my newer videos.

 

[Dakpo]

#thesaltisreal

 

[Yung Mei]

I really don't care that you play X random roy/marth player all the time and do great. Play sethlon and I 100% guarentee, you will get bodied like you never knew.

@Sethlon #sethlonisthebest4life




I just wanted to say that this is 3 months after I started playing PM or any game with melee physics at all. This is also 2 weeks after I got the cast off of my right hand thumb... and the last thing, this is almost a year old now. Dacus is amazing. I was still using it as a crutch when I started. I use it very very reserved and calculated now. Check out some of my newer videos.

Thats basically true for any match up against anyone who's really good at the game.

I wasn't aware of that (plus the date, i just watched the embed), if its cool with you or anyone else, mind linking me to some more recent matches? You never responded btw, whether you were fine with money matches or tourney matches, I know darkmetroid posted my gif set, but idk if you checked em out

 

[Juushichi]

And there you guys have it, lol.

It feels like there are very few (I mean out of 40+ MUs) that feel borderline unplayable, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're not playing a weaker character in this game. Matchups are going to be hard even as they are close to even, especially as opposing players learn the minute ranges that you get shut down in (meaning just outside of DTilt). Don't get too discouraged though and keep discussing, trying new things, suggesting new tactics.

At the very least, I'm watching and trying to gather information that will allow us to have an easier time in the future.

Also @Sethlon da gawd. For those that don't know, he's also in our GnW Skype group, lol.

 

[Dakpo]

You never responded btw, whether you were fine with money matches or tourney matches, I know darkmetroid posted my gif set, but idk if you checked em out

Yea, I totally missed what you were saying. Am I fine with money matches or tourney matches? for what?

Also, I can post a vid of me vs sethlon from last weekend. But its just me getting decimated with GnW then switching to DDD and doing a lot better. Im not sure anyone even wants to see that.

 

[Juushichi]

I wouldn't mind seeing your and Sethlon's approaches to the MU. Also, as I alluded to before, it may end up as good evidence to getting help in future releases. : )

 

[Yung Mei]

In the other thread you asked for vids of me using Gatling in matches, but Dark Metroid posted a gifset i made of various gatling combos

most of those were money matches, so i was wondering if it made a difference to you if i posted MM's or tournament matches

 

[Dakpo]

Nah, I just wanted to see practical uses

Here is me getting destroyed by Ivy and Roy.
Just as a record, this is my first lost to the ivy. We are now 6-1

These are great examples on how NOT to play this game. Ivy is tough

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RztmUvVPcOk&list=PLD5K4qnLMSMm87Ue3PWyPfpVTwUdWA5Hw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf2CZ1fnlEg&list=PLD5K4qnLMSMm87Ue3PWyPfpVTwUdWA5Hw&index=25

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I'm doing the MUs and I need your opinions on the Bowser MU.

 

[Nguz95]

Bacon for DAAAAAAAAYS!