"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[jtm94]

Playing against Sheik is one of the most unpleasant things I have ever partaken with G&W.

I struggle against her even when she is piloted poorly because of her superior speed and our lack of fast attacks. I get juggled and edgeguarded for DAYS. needles also suck.

But seriously, Sheik is one of the better characters in the game still, and far better than G&W. Can't tell what rock was turned over...

 

[Crezyte]

Well I havent seen or played against any good sheiks yet then... I just think GnW punishes are so much better than sheiks because sheik grabs dont scare me anymore

 

[Yung Mei]

i played against 1 good sheik (almost 2 years ago l0l), and i think the matchup could be close to even


i still think that, based purely on speculation,

 

[jtm94]

I wouldn't feel comfortable saying the MU is even.

 

[Maestro_]

Real talk, Sheik is probably the next best char in the game after spacies.

That being said, I don't think Sheik totally wrecks GnW (despite him being one of the worst lol).

 

[Yung Mei]

i just think that cuz sheik's general playstyle has drastically changed compared to Melee's now that the most important things about her changed ( chaingrab, tilts can be CC'd, etc etc)

needles are still fantastic, and she can juggle us pr well, otherwise, like i said, there's no sheiks in washington, so i'd say the matchup is close to even, based purely on speculation

 

[G13_Flux]

i think sheik has dropped down a few more pegs than simply being third again just because melee. regardless, thats a different discussion. i wouldnt say that shiek vs GW is entirely unwinnable, but definitely at least somewhat disadvantageous. i think the key here is mobilibity. GW cant out run, out jump, out pace, or do anything faster than shiek. GW does have quick attacks, and he has a great approach (against certain characters) but shiek has quick enough and ranged enough attacks to punish GW on a lot of his approaches. while GW can combo shiek just as hard as she can combo him, he has a harder time getting in. also, shiek is much harder to edge guard

 

[Nguz95]

I mean, fair still wrecks G&W's recovery... Uair still pokes through the ceiling at crazy low % as well. If Sheik is patient she can wall out our mediocre approach without too much trouble. If you want to win that MU, you have to convert super hard. Of course, that's not too hard for G&W, but still... I'm calling it 60-40. Of course, nobody plays her in PM because she has no soul, so it's not like we have anything to worry about.

 

[Metmetm3t]

G&W's biggest advantage in the sheik matchup is that there are no PM Sheiks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Rᴏb]

I was wondering where my hate for Sheik players went; wherever they did.

 

[G13_Flux]

I mean, fair still wrecks G&W's recovery... Uair still pokes through the ceiling at crazy low % as well. If Sheik is patient she can wall out our mediocre approach without too much trouble. If you want to win that MU, you have to convert super hard. Of course, that's not too hard for G&W, but still... I'm calling it 60-40. Of course, nobody plays her in PM because she has no soul, so it's not like we have anything to worry about.

Im curious, why do you say GWs approach is mediocre? I mean i wont disagree that in the scope of the shiek MU, approaching is difficult; however, across the board, I think GW has actually a really good approach game. fair and bair can be spaced or followed up with an up b/dash attack to stay safe on shield. dair can also be used in conjunction with up b or dash attack to stay safe. in regards to dash attack, if you hit a shield, just cancel it into a grab or DACUS to stay completely safe. it lacks the range, but with its lingering hitbox, speed, damage/priority, and cancelability, it gives some amazing utility. lets not forget the SHDB approach whose frying pan hit can be safe on shield, and can chew up all kinds of aerial approaches from opponents. Certain characters can definitely overcome GWs approach if they have enough speed and range to make it easy doing so, but thats much more specific to certain characters.

anyways, people have been discussion shiek for awhile, i think we all agree its not exactly a favorable MU, and its true that shieks arent exactly a central part of the metagame at the moment. I think it might be much more worth the while to pick a character to talk about now that is more common in a lot of PM tournaments.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

i just think that cuz sheik's general playstyle has drastically changed compared to Melee's now that the most important things about her changed ( chaingrab, tilts can be CC'd, etc etc)

needles are still fantastic, and she can juggle us pr well, otherwise, like i said, there's no sheiks in washington, so i'd say the matchup is close to even, based purely on speculation

No Sheiks in WA? How about me? Though I haven't been in pro tourneys, I'm near that level.

But anyway, I'm back everybody! This time I need your insight on the G&W-Falcon matchup.
Your thoughts?

 

[Yung Mei]

No Sheiks in WA? How about me? Though I haven't been in pro tourneys, I'm near that level.

But anyway, I'm back everybody! This time I need your insight on the G&W-Falcon matchup.
Your thoughts?

youre that guy from olympia right? you guys should come up to the tacoma fests, theres one tomorrow. Are you on facebook?

Anyways, Falcon is mostly in our favor, though he can juggle us pretty hard (dat uair)

otherwise, falcon is just that perfect weight that he's entirely combo material, i played against vish recently, and i realized that falcons uair is close to his best tool against us. He can time a knee to knock us the **** out of our recovery. Otherwise, id say the matchup is mostly in our favor, because bacon just hurts falcon really badly, juggling is easy, recovery is easy as hell to beat, etc etc. Falcon has to work really hard in this matchup, and capitalize REALLY hard on our mistakes.

 

[Metmetm3t]

We have most every advantage vs. falcon. We can shut him down in the neutral game with a combination of bacon, dtilt and fair. We have chain throws, combo's at all percents, guaranteed Uthrow to Nair, and we do alright against his combo game. Could be +2 or so.

 

[jtm94]

Falcon and Ganon are my only MUs where I am ecstatic to play as GnW.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Can G&W store more in his bucket after he stops? or will trying to store more always use it?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Pressing Down B after storing 3 will immediately release the attack

 

[Nguz95]

Im curious, why do you say GWs approach is mediocre? I mean i wont disagree that in the scope of the shiek MU, approaching is difficult; however, across the board, I think GW has actually a really good approach game. fair and bair can be spaced or followed up with an up b/dash attack to stay safe on shield. dair can also be used in conjunction with up b or dash attack to stay safe. in regards to dash attack, if you hit a shield, just cancel it into a grab or DACUS to stay completely safe. it lacks the range, but with its lingering hitbox, speed, damage/priority, and cancelability, it gives some amazing utility. lets not forget the SHDB approach whose frying pan hit can be safe on shield, and can chew up all kinds of aerial approaches from opponents. Certain characters can definitely overcome GWs approach if they have enough speed and range to make it easy doing so, but thats much more specific to certain characters.

anyways, people have been discussion shiek for awhile, i think we all agree its not exactly a favorable MU, and its true that shieks arent exactly a central part of the metagame at the moment. I think it might be much more worth the while to pick a character to talk about now that is more common in a lot of PM tournaments.

I say his approach is mediocre because it's fairly linear. He doesn't have a ton of mixups, and his safest approaches can still be shielded without too much danger. I'm also not convinced that bacon is really that good in neutral (check out the tier list speculation thread for that discussion).

 

[DarkStarStorm]

youre that guy from olympia right? you guys should come up to the tacoma fests, theres one tomorrow. Are you on facebook?

Anyways, Falcon is mostly in our favor, though he can juggle us pretty hard (dat uair)

otherwise, falcon is just that perfect weight that he's entirely combo material, i played against vish recently, and i realized that falcons uair is close to his best tool against us. He can time a knee to knock us the **** out of our recovery. Otherwise, id say the matchup is mostly in our favor, because bacon just hurts falcon really badly, juggling is easy, recovery is easy as hell to beat, etc etc. Falcon has to work really hard in this matchup, and capitalize REALLY hard on our mistakes.

No you haven't seen me, I can guarantee that. I'm high-ish level I just haven't been in any major tourneys. I live in southwest WA. As long as the MU for Falcon remains bacon-centered, he can't get anything started, got it. Also bair and fair outrange the knee, so keeping him at arm's length should be a cinch. Thanks, marking this down as advantage for G&W.

 

[G13_Flux]

i wouldnt take everything on the tier list speculation page to be true. most of it is just random player spewing bs imo. SHDB isnt good if you think your falco. use it for what its good for, because its really good for what it does and ive made a lot of use of it in neutral. GW has a lot of spacing attacks as well as shield pressure attacks. Ok, he might not be wario whos able to weave in out like crazy to stay safe. however he has a pretty damn good DD now and his approaches arent easy to punish with a good portion of the cast. when two of your tilts, 3 out of 5 aerials, a cancelable dash attack that comes out of frame two and lingers, and a solid projectile option are your approach options, thats a pretty solid approach. like i said though, there are some MUs where his options ARE easily punished, so i think its highly dependent on those amount of characters that have quick and ranged enough options to punish him.

 

[Nguz95]

I'm sorry for not being clear. I was referring to a conversation I had with Yursaman on the Tier List Speculation thread. Here is what I posted.
Part 1:

Spoiler

Im going to preface this by saying that the PMBR is trying to achieve good character design over balance in the belief that good design is conducive to balance.

With that out of the way, I'm going to analyze bacon from a design standpoint, not a balance standpoint. I'm not convinced that bacon is a really good projectile for breaking the neutral. It seems to be especially efficient at occupying the space directly above and in front of G&W, but it takes time to get coverage in the area right in front of G&W. It's very much a retreating projectile, more akin to Link's boomerang than Falco's lasers, which is why I don't think throwing it out on a place like Final Dest is really a good idea. I think it's best use lies in catching people on platforms when G&W is at ground-level. It freezes the opponent, either forcing them to shield or hitting them outright, which opens them up to a nair, a uair, or a grab.

On stages like Final Destination, however, I think bacon's use is more limited. Using bacon in raw neutral opens G&W up for ground approaches, as the pan only has a hitbox at the beginning of the animation. Similarly, approaching with the pan is a gimmick at best, as the bacon, the actual projectile, doesn't fly in a straight line, which means the only hitbox that is directly threatening your opponent is the pan and the dtilt/jab/grab that comes after it. I'm sure it's a fine mixup, but again, it's use is limited. The best use for bacon on flat stages, in my opinion, is to punish aerial approaches. If G&W is wavedashing around and throwing out dtilts to discourage ground approaches, then he can follow up with bacon to catch the opponent as he tries to jump over G&W's hitboxes, setting up for finishers and combos.

Other uses for bacon on flat stages include occupying space while your opponent tries to get back from the ledge, baiting a ground approach (not my favorite one), and extending aerial combos (debatably the best use for it in general).

Again, I'm not convinced that it is a good tool for breaking neutral. It doesn't force a certain response like Falco and Wolf's lasers do. I see it more as a tool to pressure and punish the opponent when he is in a disadvantageous position.

Now, say we change bacon in some way to make it good for breaking the neutral game. Instead of getting a cool projectile that has many uses beyond spamming it in neutral, we would have a move that is over-centralizing. Similarly to Falco's lasers, bacon would become the default move when neither character is at an advantage. Bacon would be superior to G&W's other, more limited, approach options, which would mean that a majority of the time there would be no reason not to use it. Imagine a situation similar to Ivy's Razor Leaf in 2.6. I'vy's approach was centralized around that one move, as it outclassed nearly all of her other options in the neutral game. That's poor design.

In conclusion, I agree with DMG. Making the projectile good should take a back seat to making the character good. Buffing the moves G&W currently does not use as often in neutral would be a much more effective way to improve his design. It would also have the added bonus of balancing him, which makes it a win-win for the PMBR.

Part 2:

Spoiler

Bacon is not his best option in many cases. In fact, I'd say it's below the 50th percentile for options in neutral. The reason why it's bad in neutral is simple: It's slow. The amount of time it takes to get two pieces of bacon near ground level (where ground-based characters have to worry about it) is considerable, which means that Fox, Marth, Roy, Sheik, Metaknight, Luigi, etc. are not going to let you sit there and get more than two pieces in the air without punishing you. You should almost never be able to set up a wall of bacon (four or more pieces) without either giving up stage control or getting hit. I'm not judging you when I say this, but it seems to me that you have yet to encounter a high-level player who plays a mobile character.

Now, this is by no means bad for G&W's design. He does have one of the most dangerous punish games in the business, so being able to set up in neutral by simply tossing out a few pieces of bacon would be absurd from a design standpoint (looking at you, Falco). What would make more sense would be to keep bacon in it's current form and modify some of his other characteristics (landing lag on aerials, dash dance length, etc.) so he can better interact with his opponent at mid to close range, which is the area he excels in anyway.

What you're proposing is giving a zoning tool to a character that is at his best when he is able to move in and out of his opponent's range while keeping control of his own hitboxes. G&W is designed for mid range, so encouraging him to camp outside that range would be both counter-intuitive and toxic to the characters who struggled against bacon in the first place.

Additionally, buffing his bacon game to the level where it is able to handle high mobility characters would be absolutely deadly to low-mobility or air-based characters. It would most certainly be an over-centralizing move. We only have to look back to 2.5 to see how much super food affected G&W's interactions with Peach, Bowser, DDD, etc.

In short, I think you're trying to get Bacon to conform to an ideal set by other characters, when its use is much more nuanced and unique than the moves you're familiar with. This conversation is extremely similar to the one surrounding Ganon and whether or not to give him a projectile. My answer is almost exactly the same: It doesn't fit with his design, and it would be over-centralizing, both of which would create more imbalance than it would solve.

Part 3:

Spoiler

I guess this is where the disconnect occurs. I believe that relying on bacon is more limiting than effective, as I don't believe it fills the role of a neutral breaking projectile. It seems to me that there are other, more nuanced (and effective) ways to break neutral than just throwing out bacon.

This discussion reminds me of a match I saw between a Lucas player and a ROB player in my region. The first match, Lucas relied heavily on PK Freeze, throwing it out in neutral to set up for grabs, DACUS, and aerial approaches. It was highly effective the first match, and the Lucas player took the game by two stocks. The next match, however, ROB cracked the code and proceeded to three-stock Lucas in the next two matches, taking the set.

This anecdote is significant because it illustrates the way I view projectiles. A simple strategy always has a simple counter. If someone is rolling a lot, put hitboxes where they roll to. If someone is shield grabbing you, spotdodge. If someone is shooting projectiles, jump over the projectile. High-level techniques aren't necessary to combat low-level strategies as long as the move in question is well designed. In the story, the ROB player upped his pressure on the Lucas, never giving him a chance to separate and throw a PK Freeze. When Lucas did get open, the ROB di'ed away, throwing the Lucas off balance. Since the Lucas hadn't developed his neutral strategy beyond throwing PK Freeze, he suffered tremendously.

I believe the focus on bacon in neutral is a bad habit, as it keeps developing G&W players reliant on a simple strategy. It stifles the creativity that creates the imaginative approaches and baits we see from top-level players. In the long run, I don't think bacon will be reliable in neutral, but I do think it will have a place in G&W's game. I think development in G&W's metagame will not come from buffs in the projectile department, but rather creativity in neutral.

Again, this is just the opinion of the journeyman G&W main. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Crezyte]

I don't know why people are saying falcon and ganon get shut down by bacon... I play ganon in melee and I b-air auto cancel every projectile thats not spacy lazers pretty easily...

Edit:

" I think development in G&W's metagame will not come from buffs in the projectile department, but rather creativity in neutral."

I couldn't agree more. I think right now bacon is near where it should be and GnW players shouldn't rely on being able to spam it. Thats now how the character should be played and thats not how I want the character to be designed around. What I want is: High Risk, High Reward! (Which is where "creativity in neutral" should be emphasized).

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Look at Zhime, when the opponent is offstage he doesn't chase after them, he throws dins to the ledge and then the opposite upper side of the stage. The opponent recovers, Zhime limit's their options of getting from the ledge to the stage, forcing them into a grab. back-throw into the upper opposite dins which explodes and they die. Look at G&W, he can do the same, using the bacon to approach, while it works against some characters, is highly dangerous. It's like trying to stop your sink faucet with your hand, pressure will build then water will squirt out of the openings. Building a solid wall is dangerous because you can't control where the pressure will release. building a wall with an outlet to force them into and punish is more effective. Hit them offstage and halt their APPROACH with bacon, getting a punish out of them making the mistake, with the mistake in this situation being returning to the stage. Now that's not to say on certain stages that bacon can't be used to approach. Using it against platform characters like Falcon is wise because unlike with FD, it isn't a solid wall. It allows them a means of escape, usually that means will be jumping over the arc of breakfast, this can be chased with up-b.
Defense + outlet = punish

This is me.

 

[Rᴏb]

I think it might be much more worth the while to pick a character to talk about now that is more common in a lot of PM tournaments.

Lucas? I can't contribute much to a discussion about this matchup, but from the surface it doesn't look like either character would have a significant advantage.

 

[jtm94]

Playing both Zelda and GnW I relate dins to bacon in that both are extremely overused when something better or more productive could be done.

Someone posted a video of how bacon should be used and it was Dakpo vs a Lucas and within the first match alone Dakpo was punished several times for trying to use bacon. That is factual, and I find it HILARIOUS that the video was cited as a good use of bacon.

 

[Nguz95]

Lucas is muy strong, but if you're on your dash dance game you can avoid all the PK Freeze and take him out. It's an MU where both characters get hammered. Fortunately for G&W parachute and dair absolutely destroy tethers.

 

[Rᴏb]

Someone posted a video of how bacon should be used and it was Dakpo vs a Lucas and within the first match alone Dakpo was punished several times for trying to use bacon. That is factual, and I find it HILARIOUS that the video was cited as a good use of bacon.

That was me, and this is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFf5y_dE8sw

In the first game, Dakpo uses bacon to force a ground approach from Disafter and the only times he actually gets punished by this approach is when he miss-spaced the bacon...When you force your opponent to approach in the only viable way they can, it becomes pretty easy to predict and punish this. I consider that a good use of the tool, but to each his own I guess.

Lucas' grab game seems like it would be a ***** to deal with.

 

[Nguz95]

Lucas kills with uthrow as early as 100%, it's really tough to deal with.

 

[jtm94]

Knowing Lucas can get in and grab like that without getting close enough for ftilt, fair, or dtilt to land should be enough to have discouraged as much baconing as he did.

Also as I have said Dakpo is absolutely amazing with the character in other regards, but I questioned how he used bacon. Also, he stops using it as much in the later games... I wonder why..

 

[Juushichi]

I think Bacon vs Lucas when he's not in a disadvantaged position is meeeeeh.

Sheik is close to even, but probably 45-55. imo, ban Stadium(s), Smashville and maybe FD depending on some things. Get the small stages, hold down, play your neutral smart. Don't let her down when you get her up there. Ledge punish hard. You should enjoy YS, FoD (the MU is really even here), somewhat Battlefield. CP small-ish stages.

oh yeah, i went to shuffle got 1st in my pool and then went 0-2 in bracket for 49th. Lost to Marth and Link. Didn't play neutral well enough/varied enough. Maybe going to SPAU2 next week. GnW vs Pika/Mario/Sonic yay.

 

[Nguz95]

Sonic isn't that bad, is he? I imagine that G&W's disjoint can give Sonic some trouble, but G&W does have to commit to a lot of stuff, which is no fun against Sonic.

 

[Juushichi]

Sonic's new upair is also hella good and is a huge pain to deal with.

 

[jtm94]

Sonic is ridiculous to hit with any character. It's hard to land attacks on him without getting hit out of our own, but if he moves around a lot catch him slipping with nair.

I think bacon has moderate potential against Sonic, but you have to be really careful. Up Air from him is SUPER disjointed, NEVER try to beat it out because it cannot be done, it also hits to the side where his feet aren't below.

 

[Nephiros]

Agreed that bacon is overrated.

Sheik doesn't seem too bad, as long as you respect her grab and avoid FD like the plague.

 

[Nguz95]

Sheik is hard, but Falco is harder. Diddy tho, he controls the stage really hard. It's tough to deal with. Also, his nair outprioritizes a bunch of our aerials.

 

[Yung Mei]

ive played plenty of diddy's i personally think that matchu up is pretty close to even, dtilt slaps, uair slaps, upb combos slap, chair slaps, gatling slaps, otherwise just careful with his bananas and peanut when youre recovering.

 

[Juushichi]

DDK is even.

 

[Blue Mage]

Hey all, new G&W here, any tips vs. Ike, Roy, and Link? I'm having trouble with these matchups.

 

[Nguz95]

Those are tough ones. Get them to commit to a high lag move, then capitalize. You have the tools to convert every hit into a stock, but it's not easy. Roy and Ike are similar in that you can punish their mistakes really easily. You can't shield often, so try to be as mobile as possible. That way you can keep them committing while you're not committing to much.

 

[Yung Mei]

pick falcon/MK