"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Sweet™]

Let's talk about how GOAT the "Sweet 16" combo is.

 

[Yung Mei]

GOAT? more like butt!

#rekt

 

[Sweet™]

2 into a 5 into a 9.

GOAT.

 

[jtm94]

2 into a 5 into a 9.

GOAT.

It even works backwards.

Know what grinds my gears? Yoshi's double jump tanking 8 hammer.

 

[Nguz95]

I got hit by an 8 offstage yesterday. It was a sad time.

 

[Sweet™]

It even works backwards.

What did I do? It was a 5 to hit you up, a 2 to drop you, then I fell and hit you with a 9. Heeeeuuuugggghhhhh.

 

[jtm94]

9 hammer is unpredictable, please nerf to a 9 every time so I know what to expect.

 

[Soft Serve]

So I've been playing GnW a lot more (I've always loved him, but Diddy is so perfect, so I might just keep a pocket watch) and I had a few questions, I couldn't find everything in the threads so I'm asking here, i apologize in advance as most of it has probably been said.

Is there a hitbox thread anywhere? I was wondering because I wanted to see the frame data on the boost grab (DACG i guess is what its called now). I wanted to know how fast it hits/where it hits and when its cancel-able into grab. boost grabbing shields seems really free but I'm not sure if they are actually in shield stun as the grab comes out. I'd imagine it would be positive in our favor but wan't to know if, when done frame perfect, could a frame perfect fox shine OoS, to push the example to the extreme.

What button layout do you guys use for dacus? I have R set to attack on my GnW tag because I'm used to using that for footstools anyway and its not a hard change. The motion is run/dash> down on cstick > up and attack button correct? 1 frame link right? Also, how does the "gatling" combo work? I'm just going to call gatling boost upsmash because it is identical mechanically to boost grabbing iirc.

Final question, why the hell isn't GnW allowed to air dodge after up-b. Sonic still gets to and not lose any potential height if he bairs, and sonic doesn't even need the extra horizontal recovery from it. It seems like a needless inconsistency.

 

[jtm94]

There is a hitbox thread right guys? Finding something like gattling grab may be difficult.

As for button layout I use the same layout for every character. I have R set to attack, and X set to up footstool because Kirby needs up taunt to lose powers. To input DACUS I don't know the frame timing but joystick to the side and c-stick down and immediately up on joystick and R(mapped to A). You can DACUS if you play claw style using A. You can charge the upsmash if you hold it.

Gattling is just dash attack and land the first frame of it and then immediately joystick up and A. You can also do the gattling grab using grab instead of upsmash. I am unsure of if you can charge the upsmash, but I think you can and that I do it, just don't notice.

I too wonder why I cannot air dodge out of UpB, but I guess it would make it too good? OR something... I wish I could wavedash out of it to get onto platforms... That would be so BAD***, maybe I could suggest to PMBR.

 

[Metmetm3t]

There is no hitbox thread because G&W doesn't work in brawlbox.

Boost grab is guaranteed if you hit shield, but you have to hit with one of the first 4 or so frames of the dash attack. Because of how deep you have to go with DA it's only situationally useful. A max range JC grab is much faster.

G&W's DACUS is a 1 frame input. C-stick down and C-stick left/right all work.

Gatling is exactly like DACUS except on-hit and with Boost grab timing. You can charge a gatling.

Sonic can't AD out of Up-B. Snake can, but all of his aerials are slow.

 

[jtm94]

I REALLY want to see the frame data on fair because I really can't understand how the move works. One day I have a feel to hit them with an incredible disjoint not even touching the card, the next day it goes right through them.

 

[Soft Serve]

Sonic can't AD out of Up-B. Snake can, but all of his aerials are slow.

Nitpicking but sonic can definitely AD out of Up-B, I play Nazo all the time and he does it after bair. I just tested it about 30 min ago as well.

ty guys for answering my questions.

 

[Maestro_]

Nitpicking but sonic can definitely AD out of Up-B, I play Nazo all the time and he does it after bair. I just tested it about 30 min ago as well.

ty guys for answering my questions.

Ok I just tested this and I think it has to be a glitch that should be reported because why would it make sense to only be able to do it out of a single aerial? AD out of up b was supposed to have been taken out after 2.5.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Yea, if your Sonic is ADing out of Up-B you are probably using the wrong versions.

 

[Soft Serve]

I have 3.02. Go and try it.

 

[Maestro_]

Yea, if your Sonic is ADing out of Up-B you are probably using the wrong versions.

Um no, I just said I think it's a glitch cuz I figured he was thinking of the previous version till I tested it myself. If you bair with sonic after up b you can AD. It makes no sense that it would only apply to bair. I doubt it's intended to be in at all.

 

[Metmetm3t]

O dang wtf

 

[Soft Serve]

O dang wtf

Right? Like it so strangely specific its hard to think its an oversight. Maybe each aerial had to be codes seperatly and they forgot bair.

I remember our sonic main saying you can ad after dair as well but thats not very usefull.

 

[Rᴏb]

Airdodge out of upb was something I was really sad to see get taken out after 1.0, the mobility it gave you was so fun. I don't really understand the reasoning behind removing it either... Maybe it made recovering too safe?

 

[Metmetm3t]

G&W already has one of the best recoveries in the game. It is fast, he doesn't lose his jump, it has extreme vertical range and he can attack out of it. Adding AD is just overkill. Especially when you compare him to the likes of Marth, Captain Falcon, Ness ect.

When you consider that this game is supposed to emulate melee, you're best to just be grateful he has what he does.

 

[Nguz95]

That would be crazy cool. G&W's recovery would be pretty amazing if he could ad out of up-b. I can't say i'm too fond of the idea actually. I mean, it would be amazingly cool to waveland on stages like Battlefield and Dreamland. That would only work if it was like Charizard's down-b. Wow, just thinking about it makes me imagine all sorts of possibilities.

That would probably be too good. I mean, G&W's recovery is already amazing, and I think the extra distance would probably be too good.

 

[Ben Hicks]

Trouble vs Pit, any tips?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Last time I played Pit it seemed like a pretty winnable matchup. He can't challenge down tilt range very easily so that's a big plus. I don't remember him having anything interesting in the neutral game at all actually. Just shooting arrows and gliding. Mixing it up between ducking and jumping should allow you to creep forward. From there it's just getting the first hit and your combo game vs his. He has just as good of a combo game as us though. Especially if you get hit by an arrow.

 

[Juushichi]

I can write in on this MU, having played it at least in an earlier version against 5-1 (who was at Xanadu this weekend!). I basically was up in both games of the pools set we played before losing each 0-2.

Pit's DD and dash back -> dtilt, etc are really really annoying to deal with. Close space, try not to go to the air as much because all of his aerials basically carry you to positions where it's hard for you to get down.

On the flip side, you combo him relatively well... but if he recovers high (which is most of the DI vs GnW), he is really a huge pain to kill because of his ability to weave around with his combination of jumps and glide. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up letting him get back a bunch. I felt it was really hard and was the difference in my set vs 5-1 back at Nerd Rage.

It's doable. I'd say -1 overall. Smaller stages are probably better, I guess? Same as usual.

 

[jtm94]

Smaller stages are definitely better, don't give him space to run around. somewhere like Green Hill Zone he won't have many options when it comes to landing.

My other idea would be that dtilt KOs him fairly easily on poke stadium, but he also has decent off the top KO moves, stages with small side blast zones would probably be preferred.

 

[Heartstring]

Hey, just popping in to let you all know that Dthrow(missed tech)>Gatling combo is a godly way of finishing someone off, kills most characters from the grab at like 55%. Helps if you dont use Dthrow untill you go to use it, so they dont try to tech

Also, are there any BnB combos that I should be trying to learn? I know DI makes BnB's a bit less of a thing in smash, But there must be some standards I should try and perfect?

Also, B-air. Run me though it :D

 

[jtm94]

If they miss the tech off dthrow I will either chair them, fsmash them, or judgement hammer.

BnB is anything on fastfallers, you can upthrow into anything, dtilt into anything. At low % you can uair juggle into bair/fair. You can fair people across the stage. Use fair to hit people recovering, GnW can go EXTREMELY deep offstage because he has amazing vertical recovery. Bair can also be used to juggle/combo, just shorthopped bair, l cancel into another bair and repeat. Every character at a certain % gets set up for moves off of UpB and will be brought to right next to GnW where we can hammer, parachute, etc.

If you l-cancel bair or dair on shield you can UpB out of there before you get shield grabbed I believe. Sometimes instead of escaping I'll throw out a dtilt, or jab into grab.

 

[Italia06823834]

Up B into Parachute and Fair can be so good. Favorite combo: Gatling USmash. UpB Chase. Nair.

Also, I was goofing around against the cpu. The Forward and Up Throws chain grab right against fast fallers right? I could carry Fox with forward throw across the stage then Down thrown spike, but I assume that only works with no DI.

 

[Heartstring]

Well, I was hoping for more specific things, But I guess its difficult when G&W wont work in brawlbox :/ have we at least got hitbox visuals?

Also, I was goofing around against the cpu. The Forward and Up Throws chain grab right against fast fallers right? I could carry Fox with forward throw across the stage then Down thrown spike, but I assume that only works with no DI.

Yeah, fthrow chaingrab only works with no DI. best to stick to Uthrow

 

[Italia06823834]

Yeah, fthrow chaingrab only works with no DI. best to stick to Uthrow

Figured. Gatling grabbing (is that the name for it?) can still get people to hang over the ledge for that lovely down throw spike though.

 

[jtm94]

I posted this in response to a match of Green Ranger using GnW versus a Falco in PM:


Things you could have went for more:
On fastfallers all grabs pretty much lead into ANYTHING. I would recommend nair or judgement hammer for style. And I saw you chaingrab, GnW can do that too,
Onfastfallers as you saw uair can juggle them forever, and at higher percents it will lead into fair or nair.
UpB leads into nair at a specific & for each character.
The gattling combo is most dope on a lot of the cast. Land first frame of dash attack and input UpA to cancel it into upsmash.(Needs control changing to do with ease)
Dtilt is really nice at the edge, You were using the jab to harass Falco at the edge, but the lower/farther away hitboxes of dtilt send directly away from GnW at a pretty horizontal angle. It isn't extremely hard to time and if they don't sweetspot it it will gimp Falco super early.
GnW has amazing vertical recovery, don't be afraid to commit offstage. A strong fair offstage will gimp/KO most of the cast.
UpTilt is pretty versatile against fastfallers and will beat out Falco's dair and juggles into whatever you want.
You didn't use bacon at all, which isn't bad, but it is pretty FREE harassment at mid ranges AND it autocancels like Falco lasers when you land. If you use it aim for SH double bacon.
All of GnW's aerials have landing hitboxes that make them fairly safe on shield. If you l-cancel them notably bair/dair you can UpB away from their shield before they can punish you for landing hits on shield.
The landing hitbox of dair puts your opponent into A LOT of stun and you can net guaranteed nair, SideB, fair, or even charged UpSmash at times.
Uair and UpB both hit on frame 1.
You can release GnW's bucket even when it isn't full by pressing DownB then DownB again.
I didn't see you use chair that much, FTilt is another fairly strong lasting hitbox that can be used as a defense, at the edge, however you want.
Do not overuse downthrow(you didn't) and condition the opponent for Upthrow DI, then hit them with dthrow. If they miss the tech you get free jab reset regrabs, fsmashes, ftilt, dtilts, whatever you want.

I hope that covers a lot. Let us know if you're curious about any move in particular or best options in certain scenarios.

 

[Heartstring]

Figured. Gatling grabbing (is that the name for it?) can still get people to hang over the ledge for that lovely down throw spike though.

It's calls a boost-grab, a tech straight from Brawl, albeit in a slightly different fashion.

A whole lotta info

Wow, that's a lot of stuff that I can skim through, I got most of the gameplay from watching Dakpo while I was Hosting P:M at apex. but a few things i'd like to ask:

-Why would you choose to Uair fastfallers repeatedly when you can uthrow chaingrab them for free instead, when its so much easier to do?

-Do we have a chart or any sort for up-b>Nair combos? Currently I work of feel, but because in inherently a brawler I havent got the physics of the game down perfectly yet

-I honestly don't rate Utilt, it seems to be outclassed by other things G&W has, what use does it have that isnt matches by other moves?

-Do they REALLY hit on frame 1? I mean I know theyre relatively fast, but I was told (possibly incorrectly) that UpB wasnt fast enough to be a good OOS option

-Ftilt is another move I don't rate, it seems to be outclassed by Dtilt in all situations. whats the deal here?

 

[Italia06823834]

Why would you choose to Uair fastfallers repeatedly when you can uthrow chaingrab them for free instead, when its so much easier to do?

I thought the same thing watching Dakpo. He also Uaired a lot when I'd Nair to send them offstage for a potential edgegaurd situation. If they DI super well though I guess the UAir is easier to get a follow up.

-I honestly don't rate Utilt, it seems to be outclassed by other things G&W has, what use does it have that isnt matches by other moves?

UTilt will beat a lot of moves and juggles well. For example it'll beat Falco's Dair (I Think) and at percents where the Uthrow chain becomes unreliable you can do one more throw and still get UTilt then Nair or something.

Ftilt is another move I don't rate, it seems to be outclassed by Dtilt in all situations. whats the deal here?

FTilt clashes with a lot moves Dair won't. Actaually it clashes with most move I feel like.

 

[jtm94]

Upthrow chaingrab is kind of hard to pull off because of GnW's slowish grab and platforms throw it off. A lot of people don't realize that Uair does like 10% damage and on fastfallers is free. You can also uair into nair or fair after racking up enough damage to KO them.

utilt will beat aerial approaches, like Falco's dair as stated ^^^ It also beats out a lot of Captain Falcon's moves/approaches. It's just a decent anti-air, but it isn't remarkable.

The chair eats projectiles and lasts for quite a while to beat out a lot of things.

 

[Dakpo]

-Why would you choose to Uair fastfallers repeatedly when you can uthrow chaingrab them for free instead, when its so much easier to do?

If you can chain grab spacies for free at super early percents, then you are much better than me. Around 30% you can start using reaction time, but the first few throws are just educated guess on which way they will DI. Up air is the next big thing.

-Do we have a chart or any sort for up-b>Nair combos? Currently I work of feel, but because in inherently a brawler I havent got the physics of the game down perfectly yet

Just feel it maaan

-I honestly don't rate Utilt, it seems to be outclassed by other things G&W has, what use does it have that isnt matches by other moves?

Utilt is fantastic, just situational. You use it to juggle people. It out reaches almost every down air in the game. It destroys peach too. Sometime it can combo after early percent chaingrabs

-Do they REALLY hit on frame 1? I mean I know theyre relatively fast, but I was told (possibly incorrectly) that UpB wasnt fast enough to be a good OOS option

It is THE BEST, Flaco is dairing your shield? Nope. practice it as much as you can. It leads into combos as well! its a fantastic tool. Remember to use C-stick to buffer jump for fastest possible UpB OOS

-Ftilt is another move I don't rate, it seems to be outclassed by Dtilt in all situations. whats the deal here?

F-tilt is a relatively safe kill move off the side. It has crazy active frames and beats/clanks with anything else. It clanks with marth's smashes haha. Stick it out and watch people run into it

 

[SpiderMad]

it as much as you can. It leads into combos as well! its a fantastic tool. Remember to use C-stick to buffer jump for fastest possible UpB OOS

I think I have an image of how you perform it using the C-stick, but mind explaining your process?

 

[Nephiros]

Man, patient players with quick characters wreck me in neutral, MK especially. Going in is difficult, bacon can help a bit but that's if there's no platforms in the way. I've been trying to use more jabs to commit less heavily and maybe stuff an eventual approach. Anybody got experience with that MU or maybe some general tricks for that kind of playstyle?

 

[Dakpo]

I think I have an image of how you perform it using the C-stick, but mind explaining your process?

while shielding, press up on the C stick. It makes you do a buffered jump out of shield stun. Then you press up B

 

[SpiderMad]

while shielding, press up on the C stick. It makes you do a buffered jump out of shield stun. Then you press up B

You have to hold the C-stick to get it to buffer the jump right? Or if say you got hit by something that put you into tons of shield stun, would one press of the C-stick at the beginning carry out a jump a while later?

Man, patient players with quick characters

Do you have Youtube monetization enabled?

 

[Heartstring]

If you can chain grab spacies for free at super early percents, then you are much better than me. Around 30% you can start using reaction time, but the first few throws are just educated guess on which way they will DI. Up air is the next big thing.

Admittedly, I havent had much practise against humans (living 100 miles from any good players sucks so much) but even practising, it seems way harder to do repeated Uair, it seems way easier to DI the Uairs than it is the Uthrow.

Just feel it maaan

welp, how I've been doing it thus far, The feels continue

Utilt is fantastic, just situational. You use it to juggle people. It out reaches almost every down air in the game. It destroys peach too. Sometime it can combo after early percent chaingrabs

Oh, so basically it's got a large enough hitbox to compete with stupid moves. I can work with that

It is THE BEST, Flaco is dairing your shield? Nope. practice it as much as you can. It leads into combos as well! its a fantastic tool. Remember to use C-stick to buffer jump for fastest possible UpB OOS

Sweet. I was mis-informed. It's going to feel weird using Cstick to jump though, I usually have R set to jump for UpB OOS...but I need it set to attack in order to dacus

F-tilt is a relatively safe kill move off the side. It has crazy active frames and beats/clanks with anything else. It clanks with marth's smashes haha. Stick it out and watch people run into it

so its a safe poke then, basically? I'll try and use it more. Although the vibe I'm getting it 'Utilt&Ftilt is better than shielding' lol

Also, you vs. m2k at apex inspired me to pick up this character. having TO powers helped me get a good spot to watch