"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Nephiros]

Do you have Youtube monetization enabled?

I don't, it'd be a much bigger pain getting music.

 

[Juushichi]

Hi guys, tip here for uthrow chaingrabs ~0-15:

If you grab at 0, up throw and then uptilt.

Do it on the earliest frame possible, it's a lot easier to get the regrab +10 or so % instead of getting it cold off of a raw throw. If you want better positioning or if you can guess where they might want to DI, you can fthrow at 0 iirc.

---

Also, I mentioned it to Meiling in the GnW Skype, but I've got a bit of timing mechanism, cool-ish edge tech that I will try to make a video for soon. Be on the lookout!

 

[Italia06823834]

Going back to that buffer jump C-stick UpB OoS things.

What's the advantage to pressing c-stick to jump OoS then UpB? Why not just UpB OoS? Are you playing with tap jump off then?

Also, I mentioned it to Meiling in the GnW Skype, but I've got a bit of timing mechanism, cool-ish edge tech that I will try to make a video for soon. Be on the lookout!

Ha, there's a G&W Skype? Looking forward to the video though. Any teasers on what it is?

 

[Juushichi]

Ha, there's a G&W Skype? Looking forward to the video though. Any teasers on what it is?

Yep. I'm not gonna be home for at least like 6 hours, so ask Meiling or m3t about being added to it.

It has to do with rolling towards any edge.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Are you going to make the vid Juu? I could put it up in the G&W&L

 

[Juushichi]

You can if you want. Yours would probably be much better produced/explained than from mine, haha.

My video is literally just going to be me doing it and like a small handful of applications.

 

[Nguz95]

If any of you watched Xanadu last night, you might have seen me get bopped. In light of my loss, I'd like to discuss general strategy a little bit.

First, does anyone have a general style they can characterize themselves as? I'm talking about general player archetypes like bait and punish, constant pressure, camping, etc. If you aren't categorizable, do you adapt to your opponent's style?

I ask because the Zelda I played had not problem working around my usual bait and punish game. I want to figure out a way to move forward and improve my game, which I generally categorize as bait and punish. I feel I was too conservative in my match against Xzax, and I should have taken the initiative more to force Zelda to commit to something instead of letting her set up.

For reference, the Twitch archive is here: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/514299357
My match happens at 57:24
When Gimr uploads this to youtube I'll post it in the G&W video thread.

 

[Metmetm3t]

For reference, the Twitch archive is here: http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp/b/514299357
My match happens at 57:24

Alright, alright. Here's what I got.

1) Too much dair - dair feels good, it feels safe. People think it be like it is, but it don't. If you watch this again count how many times you do unnecessary dairs to try and get back to the ground. And all of them you fast fall right past the guy. Don't, don't, don't do that. If you are going to zone with dair only fast fall it if they are going to hit. Because if you fast fall early you are going to wiff and you are going to get punished.

2) Fear or dins - I know dins is dumb. It's hard to bucket. But he was just throwing them out below you while you recovered. If it's already below you, go ahead and pull out that bucket on the way down. It'll auto swallow the fire.

3) Bad bacon chaser - Learn the speed of bacon. If you use it in neutral it's only use is to cover space, but that space isn't covered if you race right past it like you did. Think of it like Samus's super missile, you have to hold up and let it get going before you follow it.

4) Put more moves in your toolbox - bair is so incredibly disjointed and it easily leads to combos. You should practice putting fast fall bair, or RAR bair or just zoning with bair into your arsenal, it's incredibly intimidating when used effectively. Up Tilt, and smash attacks were all vacant from your move pool. All of these moves are effective so you need to think of ways to work them into your regular gameplay.

These next few things were less common in the match and possibly more a side effect of you not knowing the matchup/trying to makeup for being behind/being nervous.

5) Over pursuit - But in general it seemed like your aggression was to chase her and throw out a fair. In a few situations this just led to her sneaking right past you. Make sure you have covered all her options before going in like that.

6) Waisted double jump in neutral - As you now know dair won't save you, so you can't just double jump whenever you feel slightly threatened. Have an escape plan ready before you jump, so that way when you do double jump it's towards a platform or to bait out an attack instead of to avoid one.

7) Please Tech - You put yourself in so many bad situations because you didn't react and put yourself in hard knock down. As soon as you get hit you have to me looking for the tech because that's the easiest way to escape combos.

 

[jtm94]

I was watching that yo!

I cringed EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU RECOVERED AND DIDN'T BUCKET THE DINS ARAWEVKAGCAEBTAKCGAFHAR AGGKJ AEG E AE.

Dins isn't that scary, fair, bair can eat it up. 3 dins in the bucket is a One hit KO on Zelda at 0%.

And note that UpB goes RIGHT through dins.

The match isn't fresh in my head so I may rewatch, just play around dins better and use more variety in your moves and you could have won that.

 

[Dakpo]

Going back to that buffer jump C-stick UpB OoS things.

What's the advantage to pressing c-stick to jump OoS then UpB? Why not just UpB OoS? Are you playing with tap jump off then?



Ha, there's a G&W Skype? Looking forward to the video though. Any teasers on what it is?

Using the C-stick actually buffers the input. If you manually jump, then you have to do it perfectly. Basically, manual jump leaves more room for error.

 

[Dakpo]

Also, you vs. m2k at apex inspired me to pick up this character. having TO powers helped me get a good spot to watch

This is great inspiration to continue to do better! I love these comments

 

[Italia06823834]

I wish we had more frame/hitbox data for GnW. Another question though, Bair has a ton of shield stun, and I know with an l-cancel you can UpB escape before getting shield grabbed, Is there also time to boost grab? You only need the first frame of Dash attack to hit, then can grab. But perhaps the dash > dash attack startup is too slow to make it work?

 

[Metmetm3t]

DA startup is too slow. The Up-B escape is not even guaranteed on most characters.

 

[Soft Serve]

So what are the general thoughts on the sheik matchup? a few pages ago there were some differing opinions. Besides sheik being boring and frustrating to fight against, i like GnW's Kit in the matchup. I think it has good tools in order to combat Shiek's stalling, and up-bing out of her combos is pretty reliable imo. Its a lot better than it was in melee where d-throw >uair was guarenteed death at like 85.

Between our low crouch, our good CC game, bacon to take up space on platforms/deny her that camping option, and our strong punish/edge guard game on her, i think its pretty even. Sheik loosing the d-throw chaingrab on us really made a big enough difference imo. She does do well against out ass tech rolls though, so even though she doesn't have a true chaingrab if you don't have enough room to DI away>tech away its an easy follow up.


I like the GnW/Sheik MU a lot more than the Diddy/sheik MU.

 

[Juushichi]

So when I heard that QERB beat The Moon in tournament with GnW vs Marth in Melee, I felt like I really had to take a look. This is what we felt was one of our worst MUs and he's playing it with a worse character... so I think we should all check this out as well.

I could do an analysis of this and might very well do so later--- just not right now. However... I want everyone to pay attention to QERB's move placement and his movement. Both of them I felt were superb. I don't wanna toot my own horn here, but I was surprised as I watched QERB how much he and I kinda move the same. I obviously have more work to do, but everyone should pay apt attention to how GnW can and should be moving.

 

[Italia06823834]

I'm pretty sure The Moon came back and 2-0'd Qerb in losers though. I think it was mostly The Moon not knowing the MU the first go around. However, I'm sure there is still things we can learn from and take away from the match.

 

[Nemiak temp]

I never though Marth GnW was thaaaat bad (in melee obvi its bad but not terribad). Marth's lack of active frames on his hitboxes make it a bait and punish game for GdubZ. Edgeguarding marth is pretty easy too with soft fairs or just drop nairs, Qerb missed a lot of punishes in this set but played the neutral well enough to compensate. Qerb is the truth

 

[Metmetm3t]

That video is a great example of how to punish a Marth for playing the matchup wrong. Every time The Moon jumped Qerb dashed forward and shielded his fiar. Then he punished with fair OoS. He also harassed The Moon whenever he went really high by chasing with Nairs. Unfortunately, we don't get fair to fair combos though. RIP

 

[Maestro_]

Unfortunately, we don't get fair to fair combos though. RIP

 

[jtm94]

Game and Watch's moves are also faster in Melee, the only change that I dislike from Melee.

His nair in Melee comes out faster than his current fair, I played and thought it seemed really fast, but someone said it wasn't that different, I compared and yeah it's like twice as fast at least.

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah I feel thats a example of the Moon just playing marth sub-optimally in general
the moon normally stays grounded a lot more than that so I'm not sure why he was approaching with fairs in such a rushed manner. Marths should stay grounded in the neutral game almost always and not jump until its transitioning into his punish game anyway, Good **** to QERB recognizing where the moon was messing up and capitalizing.

did the set in losers get recorded?

 

[Metmetm3t]

Game and Watch's moves are also faster in Melee, the only change that I dislike from Melee.

His nair in Melee comes out faster than his current fair, I played and thought it seemed really fast, but someone said it wasn't that different, I compared and yeah it's like twice as fast at least.

I don't know what you are looking at, but I can tell you with a high level of confidence that both fair and nair are the same speed in PM as they are Melee. The reason I say we don't get fair to fair combos is because the knockback is much higher in PM.

 

[QERB]

Thanks guys.

The losers set unfortunately didn't get recorded, since WF was going on on the stream setup at the same time, and the TO wanted us to play it out asap, but I can tell you how it went:

He struck FoD instead of DL this time, so game 1 we went to DL. I got 1-stocked, and it felt like the momentum was in his favor for the majority of the game. Game 2 he banned FoD again so I went to YS since I won there in our winners set. This game went more down to last hit, last stock situation, but he clutched it out. Yeah he told me the next day that he was unfamiliar with the MU for the first set for sure. But for the second set he didn't let me bully him around with f-airs and such like I was able to do in winners, and he was respecting my recovery more / not giving up center stage. He adapts quickly, Moon mad good. Looking forward to playing him again.

 

[jtm94]

Nair is a full lie, I went from one game immediately to the other and it was faster in melee, fair idk, but nair is the only one I have certainty on. Unless they changed some of it's animation and it creates the illusion of it being slow as molasses.

 

[Metmetm3t]

It's all in your head bro. Nair's hitbox comes out on frame 20 and is active til frame 29. The move ends on frame 44. These all exactly match Melee.

 

[Kason Birdman]

i heard some rumor that g&w is the only character who can tech on a platform when he's coming from under it, is this true?

so if he gets hit by an upsmash on main stage he can tech the platform as he passes through it from underneath

 

[Metmetm3t]

i heard some rumor that g&w is the only character who can tech on a platform when he's coming from under it, is this true?

so if he gets hit by an upsmash on main stage he can tech the platform as he passes through it from underneath

Just tested it (because my setup was right there why not?). Doesn't work. Not real.

 

[Kason Birdman]

yeah I thought it sounded like bogus, thanks for the reply

 

[QERB]

i heard some rumor that g&w is the only character who can tech on a platform when he's coming from under it, is this true?

so if he gets hit by an upsmash on main stage he can tech the platform as he passes through it from underneath

g&w is able to tech as he passes through platforms, but to my experience, it only works if he is thrown through platforms. for example on FoD, g&w can tech the platforms as he is being up-thrown by fox as he through them, and it's not that hard to do since the platforms typically are pretty low to the ground. This can be useful because you can d-tilt immediately after teching the platform and then fox cant combo his u-throw into u-air as he typically does. I'm not sure if I have any video evidence of this lying around, but it's really not that hard to do, you can try it out~

I'll try to record some of this when i play with my buddy sometime during next week if I (hopefully) remember.

 

[Kason Birdman]

oh **** thanks man. that's actually so peculiar, play and see is such a damn weird character.

btw good **** mucking moon man, that was so fun to watch.

 

[shapular]

What do you guys think about the Ness matchup? The best player in my city uses him and I can only beat him about 1/3 of the time. I'd like to get as much knowledge as I can so I can even that out a bit so I'll be able to take sets off him. In particular, what do you do to edgeguard? I've tried a lot of things, but jumping off the stage and aerialing never works, bucketing requires mad reads (or maybe I'm doing it wrong?), trying to tilt or smash him at the ledge doesn't really work, and I have trouble following the up B since it has a lot of aerial mobility after the end of the missile and he can shield immediately upon landing. Usually he'll up B over me and land behind me (I think we can force him into this by grabbing the ledge?), but it's hard to punish because of how much priority and power the PKT2 has.

 

[Metmetm3t]

get under him and down smash. options. covered.

 

[Kason Birdman]

as if you guys are discussing g&w vs ness matchup, i f***ing love this game.

 

[QERB]

I don't have any ness experience honestly, but just thinking about it, I would guess that basically you have to make the determination if ness is going to have to up-b to recover, or if he is close enough to airdoge back to edge/stage ( i assume ness would much rather choose this option 9 times out of 10 than up-b' recovering).

If it's guaranteed that he has to up-b to recover, you should be anticipating this and meeting him off stage with a f-air/n-air/bucket (if you're feeling sassy) before he can even up-b himself, and that should be more than enough for him to be done.

If he can potentially airdodge back to stage, i would probably just do a short hop parachute right over the edge, since it's just way too good and out-prioritizes everything ness has to recover with. F-tilt is probably a safer, less rewarding option as well, since it has good priority and stays out for a long time.

 

[shapular]

I don't have any ness experience honestly, but just thinking about it, I would guess that basically you have to make the determination if ness is going to have to up-b to recover, or if he is close enough to airdoge back to edge/stage ( i assume ness would much rather choose this option 9 times out of 10 than up-b' recovering).

If it's guaranteed that he has to up-b to recover, you should be anticipating this and meeting him off stage with a f-air/n-air/bucket (if you're feeling sassy) before he can even up-b himself, and that should be more than enough for him to be done.

If he can potentially airdodge back to stage, i would probably just do a short hop parachute right over the edge, since it's just way too good and out-prioritizes everything ness has to recover with. F-tilt is probably a safer, less rewarding option as well, since it has good priority and stays out for a long time.

Thanks for the advice. I guess I'll just have to try to start thinking a second ahead of the Ness. Does anybody have ideas for the neutral game? In particular, I have trouble with the PK Fire. It can be bucketed, of course, but it comes out so fast that it's (nearly?) impossible to bucket on reaction. I have trouble smash DI-ing out of it 100% of the time too. I've found the best counter to PK Fire is to short hop over it and fair, but that requires a hard read, and whenever I try to read PK Fire, 90% of the time he does something else. If he shield grabs the fair, he's got some throws that can do serious damage, especially at high percents. Maybe I should use the bair to up B escape more? Another thing he has is that his dash attack outranges our dtilt, which is mega annoying.

 

[Metmetm3t]

• PK Fire is not worth absorbing it always does less than one percent so your Oil Panic will be trash. Just play against it like a regular projectile. If you are struggling with the DI watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U
• Ness's OoS options are pretty weak so he should struggle to punish far spaced bairs or cross ups.

 

[QERB]

Using aerials to punish ness' dash attack/ground moves is probably the way to go, his upward attacks should all get out-ranged by our d-air . This should probably work against pk fire too since it has a pretty long lag after he uses it, just make sure you land behind ness so you're safe and don't get shield grabbed. His b-air oos is pretty slow so it should be safe pressure.

 

[shapular]

Whenever I try to land behind someone with an aerial I get grabbed anyway because PM has weird grab hitboxes that go behind the character =\

 

[shapular]

If you guys don't mind, could you watch this set and tell me what I'm doing wrong and what I should be doing? http://www.twitch.tv/chattownsmash/b/526457149?t=242m17s

 

[Italia06823834]

If you guys don't mind, could you watch this set and tell me what I'm doing wrong and what I should be doing? http://www.twitch.tv/chattownsmash/b/526457149?t=242m17s

Just a quick 2 cents while I procrastinate other work. Basically I will just try and point out what things got you killed and what I think could have been better in the situation.

Game 1

~4:02:40 You gave up stage position by opting to go to ledge. Got comboed and killed for it. Would have been better off I think staying on the platform of going to the top platform. GnW's Dair is very good against Ness.
~4:03:09 Bair wasn't the best choice there. Nair probably would've worked better. Then a missed sweet spot gets you killed again.
~4:04:00 You read the techroll but Daired then fell off the platform dropping the combo. Perhaps a grab (or hammer is you're feeling sassy) could've worked out better. Key spike ended up working out in the end, but you were in a rough spot.
~4:04:10 I know Ness comes back with invincibility but you completely gave up stage position by walking over the ledge. The platforms (especially the top) are your friends. Use them. Death comes from you using your jump trying to go for another key spike. Your opponent saw it coming since it its what you did last time and you got punished/killed for it.
Last stock Ness had all the stage control (for the whole match really).

Game 2

~4:06:30 Trading kills was unfortunate. Ness' Bair is very good though. I think you would be better off going slightly lower and trying the Nair to avoid hits like that.
~4:07:20 Bucket as an edgeguard???
~4:07:45 You keep going to the ledge. Some might disagree with me but I don't think GnW has very good ledge options. This is a MU where I think Ninetendude's Up B Bucketstall to wait out the invincible opponent will work out.
4:09:08 Again you voluntarily go to the ledge and get killed.


Game 3

Right off the bat Ness is controlling the whole stage again. He's predicting you're movement and throwing out PK Fire. After the Air Dodge death you played much better though. I like the movement. Hopping in and out to dodge/bait PK Fire. I feel like that's how you should have been playing the matchup before. GnW's movement is deceptively good. Unfortunately it ended with another SD.


All three games you let Ness have stage control and when you actually do get it you give it up by going to the ledge. Also your ledge game wasn't very good and got you killed almost every time you opted to go there.
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Also, will F-Tilt clink with PK Fire?