"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Rᴏb]

What do against MewTwo? Wait for 3.5? okay

seriously though, wat

Replace Mewtwo with Ivy and that's where I'm at right now.

 

[Artimus]

Don't forget Link.

 

[shapular]

Ganondorf's actually been giving me trouble. I faced one or two Ganondorfs in tournament yesterday and they gave me a hard time, although I won. Then there was another guy who had a Ganondorf that I was afraid I was going to lose to, but he CP'ed Jigglypuff instead after I beat his Tink. I guess the strategy is to not get hit, but that's hard to do.

 

[Artimus]

Yeah, Ganondorf can hit us like 4 times and we die. I played Denti's Ganon and got pretty wrecked, though it was my first time playing a high(er) level Ganon. I think PS2 is our best stage against him, because of the platform layout. Bacon underneath one and use it as cover, expect down b's. Up-B>Dair>FF>U-air>Up-B rinse and repeat works pretty well.

 

[Rᴏb]

Don't forget Link.

Can 3.5 come out already? I've had enough of the stupid **** in this game. I'm also ready for G&W buffssss. Also random matchup chart cuz I'm bored:

[-2]
Link / Meta Knight / Toon Link / Pit / Samus / Mewtwo / Ivysaur

[-1]
Diddy Kong / Wario / Roy / Marth / Olimar / Mario / Falco / Lucas / ZSS / Yoshi / Peach / Ike

[0]
Snake / Fox / ROB / Sheik / Ness / Zelda / Pikachu / Wolf

[+1]
Captain Falcon / Kirby / Lucario / DK / Luigi / Charizard / Squirtle

[+2]
Ganon / Bowser / DDD / Ice Climbers / Jigglypuff / Sonic

Mario could go up one, and Fox + Sheik could go down one. I change my mind a lot.

 

[shapular]

Why does G&W have to have bad matchups against all the popular characters? ;.;

 

[Yung Mei]

[-2]
Link / Meta Knight / Toon Link / Pit / Samus / Mewtwo / Ivysaur / Falco

[-1]
Roy / Lucas / ZSS / Yoshi / Peach / Ike / Wolf / Kirby

[0]
Fox / ROB / Sheik / Ness / Zelda / Pikachu / Diddy Kong / Wario / Olimar / Ganon

[+1]
Captain Falcon / Lucario / DK / Luigi / Charizard (maybe +2, im iffy on this) / Squirtle/ Bowser / Sonic

[+2]
Ice Climbers / Jigglypuff


Unsure (Due to inexperience in the matchup)
Mario / Marth / Snake / DDD

I say fox is definitely closer to even against us, (we both can zero death each other easily), wolf and falco are tougher because of the stun on their laser, and a couple other things that setup easy combos on us.

 

[shapular]

I think Fox has the advantage over us. He seems to win neutral super easily. But maybe it's just because I don't really play Melee and don't have the Fox experience that like 80% of PM players have. Marth is almost certainly -2. He has it so much easier than we do. Mario is probably +1. On Saturday I learned that Green Hill Zone is a surprisingly good stage for that matchup. I struck to it game 1 thinking that the guy had picked Sheik. G&W seems to benefit from the layout more than Mario, and edgeguarding him wasn't hard even with the wall jumps. Toon Link doesn't seem as bad as regular Link. Maybe -1. That's based off very limited experience, though.

 

[Artimus]

[-2] Link, MewTwo, Ivysaur
[-1] Marth, Roy, ZSS, Diddy Kong, Squirtle, Toon Link, ROB
[0] Everyone Else
[+1] Lucario, Sonic, Ice Climbers, Metaknight
[+2] Jigglypuff, Kirby, Snake

 

[jtm94]

Beats Sonic my foot. What kind of reject Sonic are you facing? His homing attack leads into bair at 160% this MU is absurd. He is absurd and makes me not enjoy this game. Uair KOs early. Uair beats out dair. The only thing we have is timing nair for his homing attack off stage so we can crush him. He has a weight that is hard to combo so again that's great.
GnW does not beat Mario either. Fireballs mean nothing when he can punish you for bucketing it. He is far better in every single way than GnW.
Marth crushes GnW just because of our terrible combo weight and poor aerial options.
Roy is only different because we can combo him, but he can do the same stuff Marth can do but better. Marth is objectively better than Marth because his moves have been redesigned to be good/playable by the PMBR whereas Marth ended up decent by chance and thus has a lot of useless moves.
Metaknight is another absurd character his priority chews through us and again bad combo weight. Fair takes us off stage despite DI and he can nair in the blast zone. SHFFL nair also beats out everything.
Fox crushes GnW because we have terrible approaches, terrible moves in neutral, and lag on everything so he can just upsmash safely all the time and we die at 70%.
Link is very difficult to play against. I would never recommend staying GnW vs any Link.
I have a lot of experience playing Peach and that MU is one of the worst I've experienced with any of my characters in the game. I've never felt so strongly that I was only losing because of my character before.
Olimar seems like he can do stuff against us. I have a buddy I played a lot and he did well with Oli against me, but the MU wasn't unwinnable. Maybe even.

 

[shapular]

We have all the tools to stop Sonic's approaches. He doesn't really get comboed easily, so more often you're just going to be putting together single hits or small strings, but that's fine.

I don't think you even really need to bucket Mario's fireballs to beat him, but it's not that easy to punish bucket, especially from a distance.

 

[Artimus]

Tl;dr post incoming. Sonic is very much in our favor. All of our tools are superior to his own and the fact homing attack leads into anything at 150+ is seriously negligable to the fullest extent. How is it any different than GW being able to catch opponents above us with up-b into "almost" free nair or fair? The only thing Sonic has that we can not compete with is his speed and as long as you are tracking him and aware of downb sideb habits the MU is very in our favor. Mario does beat GW if youre playing it poorly. If he is zoning with fireballs the MU is completely free and if you lose its your fault. Mario has nothing to deal with our SH bair spacing and WD dtilt if spaced correctly. If its a mario that uses fireballs in close range autocanceled into something else, prepare for that and adjust. WD oos or simple buffer your shield grab. The MU is frustrating to play but its definitely not bad as long as you keep your spacing in mind. Metaknight is bad combo weight? Are you kidding me? MK gets POOPED on in the combo game. He has more mixups and DI traps but all we need is a grab and we can carry him to 50+ % easy. Once again, its not easy but its not that hard either. The Marth MU is all about baiting and spacing and using your WD in effectively and baiting wiffs. We combo the balls off of him too, not to mention upthrow hammer works until around 60+. Roy on the other hand is a bit worse because of our weight and his cc ability. Same MU other wise, and we combo him even harder. The Fox matchup depends all on how the Fox plays and if we have the opportunity to chaingrab. No Fox is frame perfect everytime and Up-b oos will seriously help. Dash attack has that janky timing and a lot of foxes miss the tech, so punish. We need to get as much off of grabs as we can, but dont overextend. Link is bad for us, probably one of our worse MUs hand down. Each Link has a projectile rhythm they are comfortable with and learn to powershield and wd oos effectively and the MU suddenly becomes much better, especially when we get in. Be cautious of CC downsmash and you will be fine. Dash attack cancel grab beats that shield, so empty jump into it for a good mix up. Also, Link is the best combo weight ever, so take that grab to a kill. Challenge him off stage, his bomb recovery leaves him incredibly vulnerable so just go iust go out there and poke him.
All in all, a lot of our MUs are pretty hard but they are more than doable if you stay patient. GW is not "that" bad, but we do get slapped if we arent on point. But so does everyone else against us. Be patient, dont aggro when youre up a stock and keep your spacing in mind. GW has tools to deal with everyone in certain situations and bacon is the staple to forcing our hand on those characters. Be ready to react to movement when we close them in and most times they just shield so punish with a grab, especially on platforms. If they get caught in their shield and cant shield drop, that should be a free grab. Also keep in mind EVERYONE hates playing against GW and the lamer we play, the more frustrated they get and the easier they are to fight.

 

[Artimus]

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5STJ1a7dgv58BvOoGPtQLEP&v=Yozfapl_fvo

A good example of how and how not to play the Marth MU.

 

[imfappin]

dang the animations are really helpful for me to see the disjoints ;-;

 

[jtm94]

Everyone I know loves playing against GnW because he's so free. The only annoying aspects are bacon beating their character, his recovery(he deserves his recovery), and UpB escaping some combos.
I disagree entirely on Sonic btw. He's far better than us and we only have bair over him. Homing attack leads into anything at any % it isn't just over 150+ that would be a null point to even bring up unless you think I'm that daft.
Metaknight is easy to combo. It's all about how people incorrectly use terms that make it hard to get my point accross. You can say they have a good combo weight, but people say Mario has a good combo weight because combos do not work on him easily, while they have said GnW has a bad combo weight because combos work on him better/easier. I will avoid those terms from now on because they lead to confusion.

GnW has good aspects as a character. He has an amazing DD game after the buff, a fair projectile with negligible landing lag, good options off stage, good recovery, good options at the edge.

GnW however has few moves that are good in neutral.... Bacon.... Bair. Most of his hits are going to be landed as punishes, or off of bacon-confirms. I hear dair and bair are safe on block when aptly spaced, l-canceled, and followed by frame 1 UpB. His UpB escapes combos, but his worst positioning is being above someone as is the standard in Smash Bros. and that is where his UpB places him. It's similar to how Zelda's Love Jump escapes combos by launching her into the air, but it only delays the inevitable because it doesn't get her out.

Yes GnW "can" win any MU, but if you want to win this is not the character to pick. Currently you will find yourself losing to things that you can beat at the character select screen. Use him for his decent MUs, but change off the second a bad MU appears. It is what it is, don't make it something else.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Hey guys, I'm a G&W melee and somewhat with Brawl main and have transferred that to project M, however, whenever I play G&W in PM I just don't seem to be able to counter my friend's Roy. I've come close a few times but I haven't beaten him as G&W before. Has anyone got any recommendations or ideas that I can implement so that I don't get embarrassed every time I play against him?

 

[Artimus]

So, you're saying GW is so bad that a character counter pick is necessary? I don't think so, not after the characters are tweaked. I don't agree with your opinion about Sonic, but maybe that's just a personal preference. I think that MU is almost free. Also, homing attack is butt cheeks and you can punish with up-air oos if it hits your shield. Homing attack generally leads to absolutely nothing, unless it's a blast attack.

If you find yourself above an opponent, stalling with bucket and reversing bacon will gain you mileage for sure. I'm not saying that GW is good for everything, mainly MewTwo, Link and Ivysaur, but other MU's are not nearly as difficult as they seem. I thought the same way for a long time, but after playing more and more it's simply a skill based thing. I've dumped on every Wario I've played, except for StrongBad. We GW dittoed and I won pretty convincingly, but his Wario was too much for me. I am well aware that Wario has a relatively difficult MU against GW, but he is a better player than myself which resulted in me losing. I haven't played very many really good Warios, but even still I can come to the conclusion GW should win that MU despite a heavy loss on my side, should we play again things will go differently imo.

If you're saying GW can't win, why does Dakpo do so well and place so high against other players that have clearly better characters? Same with Nintendude doing so well. If your answer is to pick another character then all I can say is just stop playing GW all together and pick someone else. If you're that convinced that you can only win with another character, what's the point in putting in time with him? All the work done here and metagame evolution with GW is all pointless if that is how you feel.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but that's quite a statement that we all need to stop playing GW if we want to win and a bit of an insult. lol

 

[Artimus]

Hey guys, I'm a G&W melee and somewhat with Brawl main and have transferred that to project M, however, whenever I play G&W in PM I just don't seem to be able to counter my friend's Roy. I've come close a few times but I haven't beaten him as G&W before. Has anyone got any recommendations or ideas that I can implement so that I don't get embarrassed every time I play against him?

Movement, correct DI on throws and converting each grab or hit into a solid combo. The MU is really hard for us, but we combo him just as hard as he combos us. Wavedash>D-tilt is a great spacing and starting tool and back air walls will help. Convert off of bacon as much as you can, and take your guaranteed hit. Don't over extend yourself and be in a bad position, save your jump as long as you can. Playing the match up more is the best teacher.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Movement, correct DI on throws and converting each grab or hit into a solid combo. The MU is really hard for us, but we combo him just as hard as he combos us. Wavedash>D-tilt is a great spacing and starting tool and back air walls will help. Convert off of bacon as much as you can, and take your guaranteed hit. Don't over extend yourself and be in a bad position, save your jump as long as you can. Playing the match up more is the best teacher.

L-cancelling is about the limit of my advanced techniques and my friend can't wavedash either. It's not that I can't combo him, I just find my approach the hardest thing. Finishing and comboing I can do it's more just actually being able to land a hit that I can lead into a combo. Should I be grabbing more, approaching aerially? Dash attack's/sliding up-smashes?

 

[Artimus]

Grabbing is always a good idea because we convert off of that more than anything else. U-throw is best, unless they are at really high percents or cant tech the d-throw>d-tilt follow up. Also, don't approach unless you know you have an opening. They throw out a laggy move, get hit by bacon, shield etc.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Grabbing is always a good idea because we convert off of that more than anything else. U-throw is best, unless they are at really high percents or cant tech the d-throw>d-tilt follow up. Also, don't approach unless you know you have an opening. They throw out a laggy move, get hit by bacon, shield etc.

How do I bacon effectively because, tbh, whenever I bacon I just get punished.

 

[Artimus]

I can start making videos on proper technique if people want. Bacon is used interchangeably as offense and defense. SH-Double Bacon is GW's one tool above the rest, and it is amazing. Trapping opponents and confirming off hit is one of the best tools you can learn, also when and where to do it. Bacon is punishable because of the angle, but learning where to do it on stages and when will get you awesome results. Micro space yourself, don't over commit to an approach but don't stand it one place or you will get punished.

Stuff like this without the.. ending.

 

[Paper Maribro]

I can start making videos on proper technique if people want. Bacon is used interchangeably as offense and defense. SH-Double Bacon is GW's one tool above the rest, and it is amazing. Trapping opponents and confirming off hit is one of the best tools you can learn, also when and where to do it. Bacon is punishable because of the angle, but learning where to do it on stages and when will get you awesome results. Micro space yourself, don't over commit to an approach but don't stand it one place or you will get punished.

Videos would be awesome man and thanks for all the tips thus far, I'm sure I will be more successful next time!

 

[Artimus]

Sure, I can do just about any request if needed.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Sure, I can do just about any request if needed.

Bacon would be great if you could thanks man.

 

[Artimus]

Sure sure. Will do, I'll have it up soon.

 

[Artimus]

Sorry for the quality after the first clip, Dolphin would crash when I was recording in HD for some reason. Will look into it for better videos. Correction Up-Throw>Up-B clip. The input is Direction and then B.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Sorry for the quality after the first clip, Dolphin would crash when I was recording in HD for some reason. Will look into it for better videos. Correction Up-Throw>Up-B clip. The input is Direction and then B.

Awesome, thanks man. I'll be sure to practice this as soon as I can.

I don't actually have Project M but it's what my friend has, would practicing this on Melee be useful or not? Would Brawl be better?

 

[Artimus]

Neither of those will work. Lol. It needs to be PM. GW can not do these things in any other game.

 

[shapular]

Everyone I know loves playing against GnW because he's so free. The only annoying aspects are bacon beating their character, his recovery(he deserves his recovery), and UpB escaping some combos.
I disagree entirely on Sonic btw. He's far better than us and we only have bair over him. Homing attack leads into anything at any % it isn't just over 150+ that would be a null point to even bring up unless you think I'm that daft.
Metaknight is easy to combo. It's all about how people incorrectly use terms that make it hard to get my point accross. You can say they have a good combo weight, but people say Mario has a good combo weight because combos do not work on him easily, while they have said GnW has a bad combo weight because combos work on him better/easier. I will avoid those terms from now on because they lead to confusion.

GnW has good aspects as a character. He has an amazing DD game after the buff, a fair projectile with negligible landing lag, good options off stage, good recovery, good options at the edge.

GnW however has few moves that are good in neutral.... Bacon.... Bair. Most of his hits are going to be landed as punishes, or off of bacon-confirms. I hear dair and bair are safe on block when aptly spaced, l-canceled, and followed by frame 1 UpB. His UpB escapes combos, but his worst positioning is being above someone as is the standard in Smash Bros. and that is where his UpB places him. It's similar to how Zelda's Love Jump escapes combos by launching her into the air, but it only delays the inevitable because it doesn't get her out.

Yes GnW "can" win any MU, but if you want to win this is not the character to pick. Currently you will find yourself losing to things that you can beat at the character select screen. Use him for his decent MUs, but change off the second a bad MU appears. It is what it is, don't make it something else.

That's funny, everybody I know hates G&W because I kick their butts with him. Maybe you should just get better. Or go back to Zelda.

Utilt and ftilt stop Sonic's approaches depending on how he approaches. More than any other matchup, you just have to watch him the whole time and pick the correct move when he spindashes in at you. Get a followup if you can, if not, don't worry about it. Your problem is that you're trying to play the matchup like you would against any other character and that's just not going to work.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Neither of those will work. Lol. It needs to be PM. GW can not do these things in any other game.

Ah fair enough, thought that might be the case. Guess it's gonna take a lot of losing then before I can catch on haha.

 

[jtm94]

Dakpo doesn't always go GnW. I've seen him have a hard time where I know he can pick a better character and win. I use GnW for the challenge because he is fun, but I have my other characters for the MUs GnW flounders in. Nothing is impossible, I just had to say some things that won't be said if I don't. I could go back to Zelda, but I'm not comfortable playing chars I expect large changes to. That's why I've been playing GnW and Sheik because I expect very few changes so I can transition fine into 3.5.

GnW can definitely beat Sonic. He has 0 disjoint. Most Sonic's don't sweetspot the ledge and dtilt is free. If they just keep spinning around bair is free. The problem is when they play him campy, if there's a platform we have nothing to force him out safely, but I guess bair into UpB can get enough mileage.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

I'm a firm believer that most players in PM should have a back pocket character for certain matchups. i.e. a bowser main should have a counter for ZSS, etc. Props to those hardcore mains that power through those horrible matchups, but I feel like having at least a single backup character is handy.
That in mind, I really thing G'Dub's tools are decent enough to carry him through most matchups, moreso than some of the more underbuffed characters in PM (like Kirby. Unless you're Chudat, I am unconvinced you'll be beating many Marthas anytime soon). While I am relatively new to playing our two dimensional friend, I have yet to play a matchup that felt unwinnable. Some players I've gone up against feel that way, but I always feel outplayed rather than feeling like my character had no answers to speak of.



I'm a little curious about the Peach matchup. I've played one Peach thus far - who, granted, was not particularly amazing - and it didn't seem too horrible. If she float cancels or stays close to the ground, bair seems to mess her up pretty bad and if she stays on platforms or more in the air - relying on dropdown nairs or bairs or whatever - bacon shuts that down pretty soundly. Again, I'm unconvinced it's a great matchup (aerial drift/priority/fast and hard punishes/you know the drill), but I'd like to hear opinions on it, if I may.

 

[Yung Mei]

That's funny, everybody I know hates G&W because I kick their butts with him. Maybe you should just get better. Or go back to Zelda.

 

[shapular]

Dakpo doesn't always go GnW. I've seen him have a hard time where I know he can pick a better character and win. I use GnW for the challenge because he is fun, but I have my other characters for the MUs GnW flounders in. Nothing is impossible, I just had to say some things that won't be said if I don't. I could go back to Zelda, but I'm not comfortable playing chars I expect large changes to. That's why I've been playing GnW and Sheik because I expect very few changes so I can transition fine into 3.5.

GnW can definitely beat Sonic. He has 0 disjoint. Most Sonic's don't sweetspot the ledge and dtilt is free. If they just keep spinning around bair is free. The problem is when they play him campy, if there's a platform we have nothing to force him out safely, but I guess bair into UpB can get enough mileage.

It's definitely true that G&W has some really bad matchups and most of them happen to be really popular characters which probably makes G&W worse than he really is (not that he isn't bad), and I've picked up some secondaries myself in the last couple months to try to help out with those (although really more for fun and for All-Star Versus). But it's definitely possible to win with G&W. Last week I got 5th out of 39 at a tournament going solo G&W, and I had to get through a Mario and a Toon Link to do it. Really I think Marth is the only matchup I would refuse to play G&W in. Maybe Link.

 

[Dakpo]

The only reason I would ever use a character besides GnW is to fight Ivy or Im not playing seriously

 

[shapular]

The only reason I would ever use a character besides GnW is to fight Ivy or Im not playing seriously

YOU DIDN'T GO G&W IN THE TOURNEY LOCATOR SMASH 4 INVITATIONAL. WHAT'S UP WITH THAT, TRAITOR?

Jk, ilu and your ZSS was beautiful.

 

[Dakpo]

Lmao, I was a zss main in brawl 5 years before I ever mained GnW XD

 

[shapular]

Yeah, I knew you were a Brawl ZSS main. I'm probably not maining G&W in Smash 4 either. I've mained him for 10 years, so I figure it's time to move on to someone else and I'm excited about a lot of the newcomers.

What made you decide to main G&W in PM?

 

[Dakpo]

Ummm I didn't know anything about PM so I just played with all the characters a few time and I felt a lot of easy potential in GnW. I feel like it will be that way for smash 4 as well