"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[Metmetm3t]

If you guys don't mind, could you watch this set and tell me what I'm doing wrong and what I should be doing? http://www.twitch.tv/chattownsmash/b/526457149?t=242m17s

You are mostly losing to poor stage control. Your ledge game is weak and yet you go to it often. You died to almost every one of his respawns because you backed yourself into a corner.

Also, will F-Tilt clink with PK Fire?

It'll activate it.

 

[shapular]

Just a quick 2 cents while I procrastinate other work. Basically I will just try and point out what things got you killed and what I think could have been better in the situation.

Oh man, thank you. This is so helpful. I think the going to the ledge is a bad habit from Brawl, where he can do it reasonably well since he has the fishbowl. I guess it might be a bad idea there too though. I forgot about the Nintendude bucket stall. I'll definitely try it out. What characters shouldn't I do it against? I'm guessing Yoshi and maybe Fox since their uairs are so good, but who else?

The bucket edgeguard was mostly just me trying out things, I think. I'm still figuring out exactly to edgeguard him and figured it might be a good idea since it works pretty well in Brawl, but it's obviously not as good in PM due to PMBR severely nerfing bucket catch range

Stage control is definitely a thing I need to work on, but I'm not sure where to start. What do you guys do to gain stage control, how do you know when you have it, and what do you do with it once you have it?

 

[Nintendude]

~4:07:45 You keep going to the ledge. Some might disagree with me but I don't think GnW has very good ledge options.

Try ledge jump to instant up-B.

 

[WINK ;)]

What are basic things I should know about the Ike MU? Because in my locals I am always losing to Ike. I am doing well until I face Ike.

Should I keep him at bay with SHDB ( I guess you do that in every MU but I am at a loss)... or what? I do not know what to do!

 

[Metmetm3t]

Don't double jump if you get hit. Ike eats double jumps like candy. Pay attention to his throw game, he can do a lot of damage or you can DI right. Those are a good start.

 

[WINK ;)]

Don't double jump if you get hit. Ike eats double jumps like candy. Pay attention to his throw game, he can do a lot of damage or you can DI right. Those are a good start.

He just fakes me out a lot.... Ike will quickdraw the jump to fake me out this in return will make me jump then he goes in with the real quickdraw and destroys me.

 

[Juushichi]

Hi, a bit of an update for matchups. I want opinions!


[-2]
Peach / Fox / Falco / Link / Meta Knight / Marth / Ivysaur / Mewtwo

[-1]
Wario / Yoshi / Diddy Kong / Toon Link / Ness / Lucas / Pit / Snake / Roy / Charizard / DeDeDe / Samus / Luigi

[0]
Mario / Bowser / Lucario / Zelda / Kirby / Olimar / Squirtle / Pikachu / Ike / ROB / Wolf / [Mr. Game and Watch]

[+1]
Donkey Kong / Captain Falcon / Ice Climbers / Ganondorf / Jigglypuff

 

[Dakpo]

[-2]
Falco / Link / Meta Knight / Marth / Ivysaur /Toon Link

[-1]
Wario / Diddy Kong / Lucas / Pit / Roy / Fox/ Mewtwo/ zss/ ike

[0]
Mario / Zelda / Olimar (maybe -1? theory crafting here)/ Pikachu /Yoshi/ Ice Climbers/ Charizard/ Wolf / Snake

[+1]
Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Jigglypuff/ ROB/ Peach // Squirtle/ Kirby/ Lucario/ Ness/ Samus/sheik/ sonic

[+2]
Luigi/ Bowser /Donkey Kong / DeDeDe

 

[shapular]

I agree with Dakpo that Fox is only -1, but I think Zelda might be +1. G&W can shut down Din's Fire pretty easily, and if you read her teleports, you can stick out a lingering hitbox to screw those up too. Once you take those options away, what is she left with? Hand-to-hand combat, which she's not great at. She needs her gimmicks to be as good as she is.

Dakpo, since you think Ness is +1, please teach me how to fight him :d

 

[Maestro_]

[-2]
Marth / Toon Link / Meta Knight / Link / Ivysaur

[-1]
Falco / Fox / Wario / Roy / Mewtwo / Yoshi / Sonic

[0]
Pit / Lucas / Diddy Kong / Mario / Pikachu / Ike / Ice Climbers / Luigi / Charizard / Snake / ROB / Squirtle / Olimar

[+1]
DeDeDe / Sheik / Zero Suit Samus / Ness / Samus / Wolf / Zelda / Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Jigglypuff / Peach / Kirby / Lucario

[+2]
Donkey Kong / Bowser

 

[Juushichi]

Once you shut Din's down and track down the teleports, Toe OoS is something you have to respect any time you touch her shield with something that isn't a nair, a well-spaced fair or a pan hit of Chef.

Toe air-to-air is also a paint to deal with.

 

[shapular]

It's true that the toe is brutal, but it's also her only aerial with any sort of horizontal range. It shouldn't be too hard to keep her at a good distance with bairs and ftilts. You're bound to get hit by a few of them, but G&W can do a lot more to Zelda than she can do to him between the toe hits.

 

[Juushichi]

Oh, I'm aware. Before Rizner came back into the MW, I was one of the few people that had good Zelda experience. I played Zhime for hours and hours at a time.

The punish game, the fact that Zelda does mess up a landing GnW and etc means that it has harder than you would think. I waver between the MU being even and us winning. Neither character really likes when the other gets a lead.

 

[Maestro_]

btw, both you guys are missing some chars in your MUs. I assume Juu because he didn't know where to put them and Dakpo for the same reason I did at first because he used yours for reference.

 

[Dakpo]

btw, both you guys are missing some chars in your MUs. I assume Juu because he didn't know where to put them and Dakpo for the same reason I did at first because he used yours for reference.

oops, your right! let me fix it

 

[Nintendude]

GW seems to have a big edge on both Falco and Wolf. Fox seems even-ish. I think he's a good answer to Zelda too. +1?

 

[shapular]

In my everlasting quest to beat Ness, I have compiled all the knowledge I have of the matchup at present. I've uploaded it to http://pastebin.com/7wrun6RN . I'm going to study all my matches later and add to it, but it's probably close to complete for now. I'd like it if some of you more knowledgeable folks could go over it and post some insights that I'm unaware of or correct some things that are bad ideas. This matchup has puzzled me for the past few months, and I've tried some things but not gotten a lot of results. I'm trying to put a lot of work into this but my knowledge and ability only goes so far, so I could really use some help. I've been trying Mario for the past few weeks, and it's gone a little bit better, but I still think I can win consistently with G&W.

 

[cursdpawwa]

An alternative way to cover Ness' and sometimes Lucas' recovery would be to bucket PK Thunder. The opportunity to do it doesn't come often, but I think it is an effective edgeguard if they have lost their double jump.

 

[shapular]

An alternative way to cover Ness' and sometimes Lucas' recovery would be to bucket PK Thunder. The opportunity to do it doesn't come often, but I think it is an effective edgeguard if they have lost their double jump.

I know about this. It works in Brawl, but it's much harder to do in PM since bucket range was nerfed and PK Thunder goes farther (the ball might go faster too. not sure). It's extremely situational.

 

[Scaremonger]

[-2]
Falco / Link / Meta Knight / Marth / Ivysaur /Toon Link

[-1]
Wario / Diddy Kong / Lucas / Pit / Roy / Fox/ Mewtwo/ zss/ ike

[0]
Mario / Zelda / Olimar (maybe -1? theory crafting here)/ Pikachu /Yoshi/ Ice Climbers/ Charizard/ Wolf / Snake

[+1]
Captain Falcon / Ganondorf / Jigglypuff/ ROB/ Peach // Squirtle/ Kirby/ Lucario/ Ness/ Samus/sheik/ sonic

[+2]
Luigi/ Bowser /Donkey Kong / DeDeDe

Wait, why is DeDeDe +2? Wouldn't he just completely outrange GW in every way? I'd also like to know why Falcon and Kirby are +1.

 

[Dakpo]

Wait, why is DeDeDe +2? Wouldn't he just completely outrange GW in every way? I'd also like to know why Falcon and Kirby are +1.

DDD cant do anything vs Bacon. F-tilt completely loses to out of shield wavedash Dtilt, He is juggled terribly. His metagame is very centered around gimping people which is extremely hard to do to GnW. You can't out-range anyone if your constantly shielding or being juggled. After playing Fly Amanita's DDD, I'm very convinced this match up is very good for GnW

Falcon loses mobility to Bacon, gets comboed super well, we have a chain grab, he can't recover ect. ect. ect. I can't think of any reasons falcon would be good against a character that stops his mobility and 0-deaths him often

Kirby literally loses to Ftilt. We kill him WAAAAAY sooner than he could ever hope to kill us. We out range him in the air and on the ground. He does have annoying grab game. Kirby lacks the tools to beat disjoint

 

[shapular]

Guys, I can't figure out the Luigi matchup. It seems like he can trade with everything and he always wins the trades. What do I do?

 

[Metmetm3t]

We have 2 Luigi guys down here so I have a little bit of experience
http://youtu.be/1LcvHirt6W8

He can't be punished in the same way as most characters, but he certainly can be punished.

 

[shapular]

We have 2 Luigi guys down here so I have a little bit of experience
http://youtu.be/1LcvHirt6W8

He can't be punished in the same way as most characters, but he certainly can be punished.

I watched that match live, actually. The main thing I see is that he gets a bunch of hits in, and then you get some heavy punishes that tie it up or put you in the lead. Is that what it comes down to? It's hard to tell from one match. How do you approach the guy? Spam bacon? His attacks just come out so quick and have good enough range that it's hard to do anything safe against him.

 

[Metmetm3t]

Straight approaching Luigi on the ground is rough. Fireball is slow but so is bucket, and Down-B is nearly unreactable once you are past a certain threshold. On the flipside, he can't approach you either. He has no air mobility, so he HAS to stay grounded. From there he has 3 options: slow ass fireballs, Down-B (unsafe on shield), or WD pressure. As long as you stay focused on where he's moving with his WDs then you can take stage control from him, because he either has to commit to an approach or WD back.

Other than that, all of our aerials out range his so once you have him you shouldn't fear your punishes.

 

[GeZ]

Is this the general thread? I've been getting back into G Dubs and I want to post up some hard read setups I've been fooling around with. I think you'll like it.

 

[shapular]

The general thread is the one that says QnA/General.

 

[jtm94]

I usually wreck Luigi with dtilt all day.

 

[steelguttey]

yo. so the olimar matchup thread is doing gdubs this week so come on over and tell us how bad our character is

 

[TFerg]

Dakpo, can you expand on the slight advantage GnW has in the ROB matchup?

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo, can you expand on the slight advantage GnW has in the ROB matchup?

bacon vs giant target=auto win

 

[robosteven]

Either I'm playing the matchup wrong, or G&W can body Olimar.

 

[jtm94]

I think Olimar may body GnW to be honest.

 

[shapular]

I've only played against an Olimar once, and I won. I think we were pretty even skill level, but I don't know if that really says anything. I think Dakpo needs to convince Denti to play Olimar in PM so we can get some real analysis on this matter.

 

[robosteven]

It might be close to even. Olimar's projectile, grab, and juggles get totally trashed by GW's dair, d-tilt, and bacon. However, GW is really light so it's easy to get kills on him.

I think the neutral game is 100% in GW's favor though.

 

[jtm94]

I disagree I think GnW's dair is a joke and Olimar can get GnW above him and make him cry.
We can't bucket Olimar's projectiles which means the MU is even more tough and if they make smart use of Pikmin and fish for Purple we are doomed. Purple or Red upsmash/uair will KO GnW at 90 easy. Olimar's fair is equally disjointed as GnW's fair if not moreso. I also think Purple pikmin fly through bacon iirc.

 

[Soft Serve]

They only Olimar I play is SS so I'm biased and think he beats everyone, but I found the MU to be hard.

Dair> up b on shield just gets up smashed Oos every time I try it

 

[Artimus]

What do against MewTwo? Wait for 3.5? okay

seriously though, wat

 

[imfappin]

Is there a G&W frame data thread anywhere?

 

[jtm94]

Is there a G&W frame data thread anywhere?

No, but I can fetch hitbox data if you want. Just no animations