"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[jtm94]

I dropped out of singles at LTC 3

Bowser: +1
Captain Falcon: +1
Charizard: 0
Diddy Kong: +1
Donkey Kong: +1
Falco: -2
Fox: -2
GnW: /
Ganondorf: +1
Ice Climbers: +1
Ike: 0
Ivy: +1
Jigglypuff: +1
King Dedede: +1
Kirby: +1
Link: -2
Lucario: +1
Lucas: 0
Luigi: 0
Mario: 0
Marth: -3
Meta Knight: -1
Mewtwo: 0
Ness: +1
Olimar: +1
Peach: +1
Pikachu: 0
Pit: -1
R.O.B.: +2
Roy: -2
Samus: +1
Sheik: -1
Snake: +1
Sonic: -1
Squirtle: 0
Toon Link: -2
Wario: 0
Wolf: -1
Yoshi: 0
Zelda: +1
Zero Suit Samus: 0

Why did you drop out?!?!?!?!

And what makes ROB so good for us?

 

[Dakpo]

Why did you drop out?!?!?!?!

And what makes ROB so good for us?

We are probably robs worst match up TBH.
We combo him, we stop his neutral with bacon
and we aren't easily gimped. I've played this match up at high level very extensively

 

[Mystletaynn]

Any tips vs Charizard/Ganon, DK/Link/Mewtwo, Ness, Kirby?

I've got a round robin coming up and I know I can beat everyone else by skill alone, but it'd be helpful to keep in mind key strats against the better players.

 

[jtm94]

Dakpo I'm still dubious about ROB, but I do agree with bacon being effective whilst he is in the air. On the ground it is hard with his SideB back again.

I'm going to be super brief/vague and may not be that helpful
Zard: He's big, respect his dash dance and try to interrupt it with bacon. Combo him hard because he has fairly slow aerials that can escape combos.

Ganon: Don't get hit, always be on edge. Wiz Kick goes straight through bacon and on no/poor DI can take stocks concerningly early. Do not get grabbed try to space safe bairs.

DK: Don't get grabbed and harass from a distance. Respect his dash attack be prepared to shield. When he's off stage he should be advanced dead. Combo him like the above two.

Link: If the Link is good pick a different character.... Try your best to duck under and powershield his projectiles. Bair can eat most of his projectiles and do not get grabbed or it's either a guaranteed KO or juggle city. DI behind him, it's the hardest spot to react to for his dthrow.

Mewtwo: It's hard to recover against him. Float gives him the ability to cover a lot of our ledge options. Bacon can make moving around hard for him because his movement is kind of awkward and slow + his big tail is a liability. Try to combo him hard, but watch out his nair is fast. Try to cover his teleport options while he is off stage, yif you notie patterns place a meaty hitbox where he likes to go.

Ness: I don't have much experience in this. Bucketting his PK Fire is good now, use a full bucket to one hit KO him. We can go even with him in neutral and bacon can be put out faster than PK Fire. Don't be lazy and always SDI his PK Fire/Fair, this will escape a lot of combos. I believe the best DI for his dthrow is in front of him so he can only get fair which you can SDI.

Kirby: Bacon a lot because Kirby can't do much. Jab > dtilt will kill incredibly early. Kirby's moves all lose to GnW's moves and he gets sent really far. You won't be comboing him incredibly hard, be patient, especially at the ledge and just repeatedly hit him until he is dead.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo I'm still dubious about ROB, but I do agree with bacon being effective whilst he is in the air. On the ground it is hard with his SideB back again.

.

just watch me vs oracle. Drinking Food didn't even have the courage to money match me

 

[jtm94]

I'll definitely analyze some sets. It's just weird because my training partner picked up another character to beat GnW's and the character he picked and had success with was ROB.

DF doesn't care much for GnW as it is, I'm sure there are multiple reasons why he didn't do that.

Can I get some advice for Falco? I used to be able to scrape by when bucketting lasers was good, but now I have a hard time moving or getting close. I need to play the MU more in general so I can get a feel for when UpB oos or grab will beat his pressure, but I just couldn't find any gaps on the spot yesterday.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

There's so much to talk about now, but I'll add this to the fire.

I'm open to discussion, especially because of Paragon.

I initially wrote off as a +2 matchup because of GnW's precise hiboxes (aka sweet and sour spots) and if you poorly space against Puff when she is shielding or crouching, it's a free rest. Additionally, she can edgeguard game and watch very well because of his limited recovery (he has options, but if Puff knows them it makes it easier). Unfortunately, I did not watch the set between HBox vs Mr. LZ, but I'll be watching that later today.

Trying to nail down a final judgment on this Jiggs MU.

 

[SoulPech]

I was looking back at my notes and I had it was +1 in Puff's favor..not a +2. Regardless, what I said still holds true.

Edit: I'm a complete scrub at hitbox. how can you view vods (if it has that function)?

 

[jtm94]

It has vods, but AZPM didn't have vods enabled. I'm not sure how to find and view them, but they;ll be on youtube eventually.

I still think GnW vs Jiggs is GnW favor, but GnW's sour spots can all be punished with rest and his light weight means he get's KOd faster than Fox because he can't DI to the corner and live.

 

[Narelex]

It has vods, but AZPM didn't have vods enabled. I'm not sure how to find and view them, but they;ll be on youtube eventually.

I still think GnW vs Jiggs is GnW favor, but GnW's sour spots can all be punished with rest and his light weight means he get's KOd faster than Fox because he can't DI to the corner and live.

They're the same weight actually. GnW just has a much floatier fallspeed.

 

[SoulPech]

is gnw able to up b if he misspaces the sour spots and/or doesn't l_cancel?

I'll honestly settle it being Even until we get more information. It's a similar matchup in Melee, except GnW has a shield plus additional tweaks.

 

[jtm94]

I am very aware that they both weigh 75, you merely assumed I was stupid. This is why I used Fox as an example, because in Melee at low % Fox can live rest by DIing to the corner because 1. it is the longest route to the blast zone and 2. his fall speed causes him to decelerate at a faster rater. This means that GnW will not slow down enough to live a rest that Fox could have, that is merely all I was conveying.

@ SoulPech What exactly are you asking? I cannot make sense of it.

 

[Mystletaynn]

I think SoulPech is asking if Game & Watch can escape Jiggs' Rest punish with his own Up+B quick enough, which I doubt, but on the other hand, I'm not a lab monster so I've never tested.

 

[SoulPech]

let's say you do a forward air on my shield, but OOPS you misspaced it AND you didn't L_cancel. Am I able to punish w/ rest, or are you able to buffer up b?

 

[jtm94]

I don't think you can buffer UpB out of normal landing lag, it needs to be timed.

GnW's fair landed the frame before he lands with l cancel makes it in the range of +1 to -1 iirc. Without l cancel there is 13 more frames of lag meaning it would be a 12 to 14 frame window to land rest in. Factoring in using UpB as a panic option moves the window to 14 to 16 frames. Mind you that optimally placed strong fair is pretty hard to land on shield and that weak fair is extremely worse on shield and easily punishable by rest even with the l cancel.

 

[SoulPech]

ok that's what I thought.

 

[UltiMario]

Edit: I just realized I responded to an extremely old post. We need a delete button.

 

[jtm94]

Edit: I just realized I responded to an extremely old post. We need a delete button.

You can respond to whatever you want.
It can still be discussed if relevant still.

 

[SoulPech]

disregard this post.

 

[Kneato]

Matchup from's Perspective (+3 has G&W winning)

+3:
+2:
+1:
0:

-1:
-2:
-3:


What do you guys think? Anything wildly inaccurate?

 

[Mystletaynn]

Was pleasantly surprised with this list, I can't really find anything I disagree on with the possible exception of moving Snake to +-0.

 

[MrLul]

heres mine

+3:
+2:
+1::
0
-1: :

-2:

 

[Kneato]

heres mine

+3:
+2:
+1::
0
-1: :

-2:

Is this real life?

 

[jtm94]

Is this real life?

Who knows at this point. LOL

 

[Kneato]

But for real though, I'd really appreciate some feedback. That chart is the current state of the community matchup chart and I'm making an effort to update it as most of it is pretty outdated.

 

[Tobb99]

I wonder, is it true that G&W only looses to the Links?? I heard some people say that, and it seems pretty crazy if those are his only loosing MUs. Also what happened to Marth? I thought that was a bad MU for G&W, and also Fox and other long-range characters.

 

[jtm94]

Talking MUs at this time isn't very useful, or has it ever been.
Links are quite hard to play against, but anything is doable. Marth as well.

 

[Mechaglacier]

Could you guys help me with the GnW-Mew2 MU please?