"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[felipe_9595]

I won the MM ditto 3-1! I am now richer an extra $5. No recording though, sorry.

Thank you to everyone who gave me advice. I'm still a total beginner at Gnw(and this game), but I can definitely feel improvement. I mostly just had issues finding ways to approach when he was camping me out, but otherwise, I think I played it well. I flubbed DACUSs a few times though, despite my practice. Once again, thanks everyone!

You didn't flub those DACUS, you tricked your opponent to beleive you would dacus.

Honestly, sometimes is hilarious to fail a Dacus on shield just to see your opponent roll to the other side out of fear XD

 

[Rise]

Is the Skype chat still active?
I'd like to join.

ricky.ramunni

 

[Tuuuuuna]

So just to recap:

Beats:


Even:


Loses:


Loses HARD AF:



Personally I disagree with Falco, Maybe Im just awful against falco but I have a really hard time beating him.. any tips?
I also think Gdubs is at least even with Falcon, if not slight advantage.
Totally agree with marth.....man **** marth.

What do you guys think about , , and ?

There are some other missing ones, but these are pretty common matchups in my area.

 

[Rise]

Wario should be close to even if you can beat him in the neutral. Bacon limits his aerial movement and fair/ftilt will beat his side b. However, wario has good kill setups and can kill gnw really early with waft.

Ivysaur can outrange most moves and can camp gnw, has an annoying projectile, IMO ivysaur is a losing mu.

Fox is a winning matchup at low-mid skill levels and gets harder at higher levels of play.

I think the yoshi matchup is kinda like ganon because yoshi can eat through your moves.

 

[felipe_9595]

Wario is def a winning matchup, you can outspace him completely.

 

[jtm94]

I change mind about Falco to even.
Sonic I'm still dubious about. It's hard to say honestly even though I play it all the time.

Wario is a nuisance, but I don't think it should be bad. I personally can't deal with his aerial mobility, but none of his aerials are really threatening and we beat them all out. Just watch out for jank gimmick stuff like dsmash > side B or throws > SideB. KOs really early and is depressing to get hit by from missed techs on throws or dsmash.

 

[Shockbound]

I don't know too much about Wario or Mewtwo but I know that the Ivysaur matchup is difficult for the many of same reasons that the Link matchup is, yet with some extra Ivysaur specific things that make the matchup a living nightmare for everybody involved. She doesn't completely invalidate G&W now like she did in 3.02, but it's at least 50/50 in 3.5 despite being the least fun thing I've ever had to deal with.

Link has the ability to toss out all sorts of non-absorbable hitboxes while still having big disjoint to challenge your aerials, which makes advancing safely towards him a frustrating ordeal due to G&W's lacking approach options. Patience is a very important part of this matchup since Link has nothing that he can really do to make G&W need to approach him (other than the timer), so G&W usually has the option to just run away from him until he leaves a hole in his defenses on most stages.

Ivysaur can also box G&W out with non-absorbable projectiles while having big disjoint to challenge his aerials, but unlike Link, she can actually force G&W to approach with Synthesis healing. Combined with her ability to keep G&W at bay, he doesn't fare well against her in neutral. Playing this matchup as G&W requires a strange and constantly shifting balance of patience with aggression in neutral while also being able to maximize on punishes as much as possible since the window for punishing a good Ivysaur does not appear very often. While being able to "maximize on punishes as much as possible" sounds like a really obvious thing to do as G&W, I say this because G&W can realistically kill her at any % off of a single punish in neutral. There are some really stupid things that work on Ivysaur that every G&W should be aware of when playing against her.

Here's some important things to keep in mind when playing against Ivysaur:

1. Crouch canceling any of her moves leaves her at a disadvantage most of the time. See this really cool thread for details.
2. Her recovery options are easily covered due to how tether mechanics work.
3. Her shield is easily pressured. Her fastest options OoS include jump > N-Air (9 frames) or release > jab (10 frames), grab is 14 frames.
4. You can bucket Solar Beam.
5. SDI her B-Air in the direction opposite to the direction that she is traveling vertically.

Don't make the mistake of running away from Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf gradually moves slower as it travels further, so if you can stay close enough to her for it to travel past you as you shield or crouch cancel the initial hits then you can punish her while she's still stuck in Razor Leaf's very high endlag. If you try to shield or crouch cancel it from too far away then you will just end up eating hitboxes for long enough to get grabbed. Ivysaur has very good throw followups, so make not getting grabbed one of your highest priorities.

I've also heard rumors that Ivysaur can choose to either tilt or smash Razor Leaf and adjust the speed at which it travels before it reaches the end of its range (it travels the same distance regardless), so you might need to be careful about this when trying to stay close to her.

Staying very close to her can otherwise be quite rewarding for G&W because Razor Leaf becomes much less threatening at that range. There's a certain position near Ivysaur that's close enough to her to keep you safe from Razor Leaf's lingering stunlock while also being far away enough to be outside of the followup range of her SH B-Air or SH F-Air. From this range you can steadily approach her and crouch cancel her B-Air once she pulls it out. She'll try to hit you with B-Air a lot, so if you keep yourself on the ground then you can always punish her for hitting you with a B-Air.

Remember to SDI the first hit of B-Air to avoid the second hit if she catches you in the air. You should SDI up if she's using a falling B-Air and SDI down if she's using a rising B-Air. If she's using B-Air at the peak of her jump then your only hope is to SDI away and pray that you escape in time.

Ivysaur will use her D-Air to aid her recovery, which leaves her wide open to easy edgeguards. I believe she can do this twice per airstate before the stall stops working, but it doesn't really matter if you just touch her even once while she's offstage.

If G&W hogs the ledge while Ivysaur is tethered to it then she will be forced to do a ledgejump after hanging below the ledge for a while. This puts her right above him, which leaves her vulnerable to Up-Air or reverse F-Air (the hitbox above G&W that sends behind him). Ledgehogging might prove difficult if the Ivysaur uses Down-B to cover the ledge while she's recovering, but since she's already left very vulnerable to gimps while offstage you should be able to punish her for trying that.

I've played against some dedicated Ivysaurs before and I've had the pleasure of being able to talk about the matchup with them for a while. I've done some research on this character and have actually found that a lot of people have very mixed opinions about this matchup; even other Ivysaurs. Dakpo once thought that the matchup was borderline unwinnable in 3.02, but seems to find it far more manageable now.

 

[Dakpo]

I don't know too much about Wario or Mewtwo but I know that the Ivysaur matchup is difficult for the many of same reasons that the Link matchup is, yet with some extra Ivysaur specific things that make the matchup a living nightmare for everybody involved. She doesn't completely invalidate G&W now like she did in 3.02, but it's at least 50/50 in 3.5 despite being the least fun thing I've ever had to deal with.

Link has the ability to toss out all sorts of non-absorbable hitboxes while still having big disjoint to challenge your aerials, which makes advancing safely towards him a frustrating ordeal due to G&W's lacking approach options. Patience is a very important part of this matchup since Link has nothing that he can really do to make G&W need to approach him (other than the timer), so G&W usually has the option to just run away from him until he leaves a hole in his defenses on most stages.

Ivysaur can also box G&W out with non-absorbable projectiles while having big disjoint to challenge his aerials, but unlike Link, she can actually force G&W to approach with Synthesis healing. Combined with her ability to keep G&W at bay, he doesn't fare well against her in neutral. Playing this matchup as G&W requires a strange and constantly shifting balance of patience with aggression in neutral while also being able to maximize on punishes as much as possible since the window for punishing a good Ivysaur does not appear very often. While being able to "maximize on punishes as much as possible" sounds like a really obvious thing to do as G&W, I say this because G&W can realistically kill her at any % off of a single punish in neutral. There are some really stupid things that work on Ivysaur that every G&W should be aware of when playing against her.

Here's some important things to keep in mind when playing against Ivysaur:

1. Crouch canceling any of her moves leaves her at a disadvantage most of the time. See this really cool thread for details.
2. Her recovery options are easily covered due to how tether mechanics work.
3. Her shield is easily pressured. Her fastest options OoS include jump > N-Air (9 frames) or release > jab (10 frames), grab is 14 frames.
4. You can bucket Solar Beam.
5. SDI her B-Air in the direction opposite to the direction that she is traveling vertically.

Don't make the mistake of running away from Razor Leaf. Razor Leaf gradually moves slower as it travels further, so if you can stay close enough to her for it to travel past you as you shield or crouch cancel the initial hits then you can punish her while she's still stuck in Razor Leaf's very high endlag. If you try to shield or crouch cancel it from too far away then you will just end up eating hitboxes for long enough to get grabbed. Ivysaur has very good throw followups, so make not getting grabbed one of your highest priorities.

I've also heard rumors that Ivysaur can choose to either tilt or smash Razor Leaf and adjust the speed at which it travels before it reaches the end of its range (it travels the same distance regardless), so you might need to be careful about this when trying to stay close to her.

Staying very close to her can otherwise be quite rewarding for G&W because Razor Leaf becomes much less threatening at that range. There's a certain position near Ivysaur that's close enough to her to keep you safe from Razor Leaf's lingering stunlock while also being far away enough to be outside of the followup range of her SH B-Air or SH F-Air. From this range you can steadily approach her and crouch cancel her B-Air once she pulls it out. She'll try to hit you with B-Air a lot, so if you keep yourself on the ground then you can always punish her for hitting you with a B-Air.

Remember to SDI the first hit of B-Air to avoid the second hit if she catches you in the air. You should SDI up if she's using a falling B-Air and SDI down if she's using a rising B-Air. If she's using B-Air at the peak of her jump then your only hope is to SDI away and pray that you escape in time.

Ivysaur will use her D-Air to aid her recovery, which leaves her wide open to easy edgeguards. I believe she can do this twice per airstate before the stall stops working, but it doesn't really matter if you just touch her even once while she's offstage.

If G&W hogs the ledge while Ivysaur is tethered to it then she will be forced to do a ledgejump after hanging below the ledge for a while. This puts her right above him, which leaves her vulnerable to Up-Air or reverse F-Air (the hitbox above G&W that sends behind him). Ledgehogging might prove difficult if the Ivysaur uses Down-B to cover the ledge while she's recovering, but since she's already left very vulnerable to gimps while offstage you should be able to punish her for trying that.

I've played against some dedicated Ivysaurs before and I've had the pleasure of being able to talk about the matchup with them for a while. I've done some research on this character and have actually found that a lot of people have very mixed opinions about this matchup; even other Ivysaurs. Dakpo once thought that the matchup was borderline unwinnable in 3.02, but seems to find it far more manageable now.

I've basically beaten all 3 of the top ivysaurs now. This match is totally in GnW favor. Who knows what 3.6 will bring though.

 

[jtm94]

Link vs GnW is very much struggle. He's easy to combo, but it's very very hard to get in if played right. It's very hard for GnW to punish his aerials as long as he's safe about it since fair AC it seems punishable because you think of Link as slow, but you'll run right into something and eat a ton of uairs and be at KO % before you know it.

GnW can duck Link's grab sometimes. No idea what the cause is, but I have it happen to me more often than not. Because Link's grab and oos options are so slow/limited you can get away with some things on shield that you couldn't do vs other characters. Off the top of my head his grab is frame 11, but not sure what UpB oos is. It can be hard for him to deal with CCing and GnW can also duck flat angle boomerang. All I can say is play patient and never let him recover.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Link vs GnW is very much struggle. He's easy to combo, but it's very very hard to get in if played right. It's very hard for GnW to punish his aerials as long as he's safe about it since fair AC it seems punishable because you think of Link as slow, but you'll run right into something and eat a ton of uairs and be at KO % before you know it.

GnW can duck Link's grab sometimes. No idea what the cause is, but I have it happen to me more often than not. Because Link's grab and oos options are so slow/limited you can get away with some things on shield that you couldn't do vs other characters. Off the top of my head his grab is frame 11, but not sure what UpB oos is. It can be hard for him to deal with CCing and GnW can also duck flat angle boomerang. All I can say is play patient and never let him recover.

Don't forget that despite his tether, Link can be easy to edgeguard. Baiting out the clawshot can net you a safe dair if he's below, and a fair if he's horizontally tethering.

 

[jtm94]

You should always mess up Link when he's off stage. You can meteor him through his UpB and tethers are easy to edgeguard and should never go unpunished.

 

[Fakes]

I was watching a PM stream and I kept seeing a G&W down throw to bucket. I'm trying to figure out why?

 

[ociplaC]

I was watching a PM stream and I kept seeing a G&W down throw to bucket. I'm trying to figure out why?

More context would be better. Against what character was G&W playing? Was his bucket full or not?

Regardless, one of my favorite strategies/combos against characters who constantly throw out absorb-able projectiles (Mario/Luigi/Spacies) is:
1a) Absorb 3 projectiles to get a Full Bucket
1b) Absorb 2 projectiles to get 2/3 Bucket (so I can still Bucket Brake if knocked away at higher %s)
2) Grab -> D-Throw -> Mash Down-B

With a Full Bucket, it comes out instantly after you press Down-B, so it'll catch them even if they try to tech away. At low-mid %s (depending on character and projectile type), it can knock them far enough off the edge or even outright kill them. I usually save this combo for their last stock, they're usually not ready for it and it gets the surprise kill.

With a 2/3 bucket, there's a small bit of delay because you technically need to hit Down-B twice to release the Oil Spill. I like to use this combo at mid %, or low % on Spacies, to gimp off the edge and even up the stock count in a pinch.

One more small note, these combos are even more effective when you can get a grab on a platform, "trapping" the other player and allowing you to react to their tech options.

 

[jtm94]

I always get nervous and play different when I have a full bucket.

 

[Shoto]

Yeah having a full bucket can kinda suck sometimes. If you forget that you have it, then you can't use it to stall in the air without wasting the entire filling. Oh well. At least the bucket has a slight downside. It's advantages are really great though. It covers so much space, and it can't be reflected. Using it to slow down in the air when coming down so you don't get comboed. Lots of uses and everything. Definitely one of GnW's most useful special moves. (All of them are useful actually hahaha)

 

[Shockbound]

Releasing a full bucket has 6 frames of invulnerability starting on frame 1 and a hitbox starting on frame 2. You can use it while being hit by a multi-hit move as an effective counterattack. Since the input for Oil Panic is Down-B this opens up even more interesting opportunities because it means you can use it out of a crouch. The invulnerability will end once the hitbox moves past its first stage, so this will only work if your opponent is standing in the spot where your bucket appears.

You also get 6 frames of invulnerability if you release the bucket at any level of charge, but this requires you to first bring the bucket out. It takes 5 frames for the bucket to appear, so invulnerability can start on frame 6 at the earliest when being pulled out at will. This makes it much less suitable than a full bucket for counterattacking.

However, if you already had your bucket out (i.e. you just caught a projectile with it) you can choose to keep it out and release it as your opponent approaches. The invulnerability will start on the very first frame you try to empty the bucket and the hitbox will come out just one frame afterwards.

The instant counterattack option is "unlocked" once your bucket is completely filled, but you also lose the ability to:

• Effectively punish any further camping
• Ledge-cancel Bucket Brake
• Cancel horizontal momentum before hitting the side blastzones
• Stall your descent during recovery
• Safely turn your body the other way while offstage

Having a full bucket can be seen as a hindrance in many respects. Holding onto it for an entire match might not be the right option if the opportunity to use it never appears, and this will just end up hurting you in the long run since you'll have fewer tools to keep yourself alive. Maximum-charge Oil Panic is certainly a powerful option to have, but the drawbacks will outweigh the benefits over extended periods of time.

Don't be afraid to release it on a whim against particularly campy characters like Zelda or Mario. Once your bucket is full they have free reign to camp the living hell out of you because there's no longer a downside to doing so. You'll have the option to kill them easily once they get close, but this is rendered insignificant by the fact that they never really need to get close anymore. A full bucket will just encourage your opponent to camp you even more and it will work out for them because you are forfeiting several valuable survival options in exchange for a single punish option. Holding on to it for too long will allow them to get more damage on you than what the punish will be worth, so arrange to have it emptied soon. Whiffing it from a safe distance is not easily punishable due to the massive disjoint, leaving the risk low and the reward high. Besides, if they keep it up you can just dump another one on them later.

The projectile absorption aspect of Oil Panic is subtle in most matchups anyways, and its purpose is fulfilled by simply being in G&W's moveset. The threat of a OHKO option (or the potential for it) is enough to scare most people away from using their energy projectiles in the first place.

 

[Fakes]

@ O ociplaC @ Shockbound My bad, some more context would have helped. He was down throwing and instantly using his bucket, which was empty. At first I thought it was an accident, or maybe he didn't know his bucket was empty. But he tried it multiple times, and every time it did nothing and his bucket was always empty. I thought maybe the bucket had invincibility frames and he was doing something to clang with getup attack? but that didn't make sense to me because getup attack would take too long and I thought "no way it can be used that way."

The conclusion I reached was that this guy was doing something wrong.

I can't remember who he was playing against, but it definitely was not a space animal because I already thought about it being used against tech in place to shine.

I really had no idea that the bucket was so advanced, I only mess around with G-Dubs and have used it to stop horizontal momentum. This is all cool stuff!

 

[ociplaC]

Hello Game & Watchers! I'm competing in Northwest Majors, in Project M (v3.5) 1v1 and 2v2.
Here's the bracket for singles: http://nwm7.challonge.com/PM (I'm entered as "SBL|Calpico")

I've got some stiff competition, including: SilentWolf, Bladewise, Chillin, SFAT, PewPewU, [ePG]Chevy/HungryHeadcrab/PunkPanda, FatGoku, Vish, SBL|Oreo, Odds, GHQ|Aki and many more!

Wish me luck guys, I'm aiming to take some names

 

[jtm94]

Dang! Good luck man.

 

[Shoto]

Dang dude. Some pretty great players there. Represent GnW and I hope you do well!

 

[ociplaC]

Big post incoming:
Thanks for the good wishes guys! Tied for 13th Place in a 113 Person Bracket, my set record ended up being 5-2. I lost to [62-Bit]Bladewise (on stream!) in WR4 and PwrUp! (Roy Main from Seattle and a good friend) in LR7, getting knocked out a little earlier than I wanted.

LR8 would've been vs. [ePG]HungryHeadcrab whom I've taken sets off of, but what happens happens. I got to take out MIOM|Dr. Z's Luigi with a 9 Hammer and Cazcom's Ness along the way, so I feel satisfied with that.



http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming/b/653823645
14:15-23:30 is my 1v1 match vs. [62-bit]Bladewise. Pretty happy that I held my own against him on stream. Just wished I could've held onto my beginning momentum, been more patient with my approaches, and closed out more stocks.
Feel free to pick apart and bully me about anything bad but do offer suggestions on alternatives or what I could do


PS: I got to team with the great Odds in PM 2v2 (self-named team "Odds and Evens"), and we tied for 7th out of 36 teams, losing only to PewPewU+SFAT and Chip+Artiface. He carried me really well and I'm glad I got to help him out. In closing, Bowser+G&W is a team that should see more exploration :D

 

[jtm94]

@ Psychofox asked for Peach advice on these sets:
"Here is winners finals of a small local we played at http://www.twitch.tv/takaisendo/b/655484243 , fast forward to 6:05:48-ish. 6:35:44 is grands for the same matchup. Anybody have any advice? G&W tricks, fundamentals, specific matchup strats, this matchup feels pretty difficult when he knows what he is doing."

Alright I watched a lot of the games, but not all of them.
Just to list some things out:

• Always input shield as you UpB towards the stage in Peach is in position to dsmash. You have nothing to lose and because of how it sucks you in the wall tech is free. You can practice more difficult ledge teching by using the motion-sensor bomb in training mode. You grab it, roll as close to the ledge, throw it down, then jump off and recover and input shield 20 frames before you even hit it, then you can use the joystick/c-stick to sdi into the wall and if you do it right you will never die from it.
• You challenge turnips in a bad way. You need to respect them more, and you need to catch them often. My training partner dabbles in Peach and I thought he was the only one who will stand in place and relentlessly chuck turnips.... but that guy outdid him. You can run in and shield them, perfect shielding is very beneficial if you get better at it, but you will eventually get close enough to do something. The only crazy things she can do to shield are float fair into dsmash, or grab you. If she floats you can fair her out of it, if she runs at you, dtilt her into the air and pursue. Catching turnips with air dodge is incredibly easy and you should have been doing it all game to stop him from just trying to camp with it. Instead you ran head first into them and took unecessary damage and it also started to make you go in with unsafe fairs just to hit turnips.
• Learn to AGT turnips to both recover and to make your recover safer. This is something every player should learn at one point or another because it is something every character can do and changes MUs for the better just by knowing it. If you can do it just once you can make Peach stop throwing them off stage at you altogether.
• Go into Debug mode and UpB with hitboxes turned on. Notice while GnW is upside down during it the hitbox covers above him. You can use this portion of UpB to go through projectiles when recovering.
• It seems like because of turnips you often would dash dance much further away from Peach than was actually useful. She would typically be under a platform and you would continue to toss out bacon that never landed, yet you would keep getting hit by turnips. You need to take the middle ground against her because we have disjoint moves that beat her there. You need to look out for dash attack, but otherwise her movement is fairly slow and in that range you can punish turnip pulls and start to threaten whiffs with DACUS.
• Approach with bair, not fair. Bair not only lasts longer than fair for wallng out projectiles/attack, but it is also MUCH safer. It is still punishable, but once you get into the mid range against Peach you can duck under turnips and just mess up all of her approaches with bair.
• She is slower, use that to your advantage. Her most threatening form of movement is float, but with bair we have the tools to beat that out entirely. If she is above us she is completely disadvantaged. Use your better dash dance to slowly get in on her and force her into a corner where she has to commit to something and punish.
• When she is above you note that while floaty, her weight can allow her to escape some combos. You tried to overextend a few times and she nair'd you out of combos. In these situations you NEED to out space her. repeatedly uair, fair, whatever to hit her out of the air. Use nairs large hitbox to your advantage. Bacon also shines at keeping floaties above you because it travels in a somewhat reliable upwards arc. You can angle bacon up to make it more reliable.
• I do not think bacon in neutral is stellar against Peach. Turnips will body bacon and smack you around. Where bacon does excel is if she's above you or off stage recovering from around even of the ledge or higher/lower by a bit. Use bacon with confidence. Here is when it is crucial to launch bacon and follow the path so you get follow ups. I am guilty of this as well, I will launch bacon just to launch it, but don't move forward to take advantage of it hitting or even run away.
• I've had success with just nair to catch her recovering. It's big enough and her movement is predictable enough to catch her with this and it will KO her without further repeated edgeguard attempts.
• When she grabs you ALWAYS immediately DI up because fthrow is her fastest and most deadly throw. If you notice she's in the animation of dthrow that's when you can DI away behind her.

 

[Psychofox]

@ Psychofox asked for Peach advice on these sets:
"Here is winners finals of a small local we played at http://www.twitch.tv/takaisendo/b/655484243 , fast forward to 6:05:48-ish. 6:35:44 is grands for the same matchup. Anybody have any advice? G&W tricks, fundamentals, specific matchup strats, this matchup feels pretty difficult when he knows what he is doing."

Alright I watched a lot of the games, but not all of them.
Just to list some things out:

• Always input shield as you UpB towards the stage in Peach is in position to dsmash. You have nothing to lose and because of how it sucks you in the wall tech is free. You can practice more difficult ledge teching by using the motion-sensor bomb in training mode. You grab it, roll as close to the ledge, throw it down, then jump off and recover and input shield 20 frames before you even hit it, then you can use the joystick/c-stick to sdi into the wall and if you do it right you will never die from it.
• You challenge turnips in a bad way. You need to respect them more, and you need to catch them often. My training partner dabbles in Peach and I thought he was the only one who will stand in place and relentlessly chuck turnips.... but that guy outdid him. You can run in and shield them, perfect shielding is very beneficial if you get better at it, but you will eventually get close enough to do something. The only crazy things she can do to shield are float fair into dsmash, or grab you. If she floats you can fair her out of it, if she runs at you, dtilt her into the air and pursue. Catching turnips with air dodge is incredibly easy and you should have been doing it all game to stop him from just trying to camp with it. Instead you ran head first into them and took unecessary damage and it also started to make you go in with unsafe fairs just to hit turnips.
• Learn to AGT turnips to both recover and to make your recover safer. This is something every player should learn at one point or another because it is something every character can do and changes MUs for the better just by knowing it. If you can do it just once you can make Peach stop throwing them off stage at you altogether.
• Go into Debug mode and UpB with hitboxes turned on. Notice while GnW is upside down during it the hitbox covers above him. You can use this portion of UpB to go through projectiles when recovering.
• It seems like because of turnips you often would dash dance much further away from Peach than was actually useful. She would typically be under a platform and you would continue to toss out bacon that never landed, yet you would keep getting hit by turnips. You need to take the middle ground against her because we have disjoint moves that beat her there. You need to look out for dash attack, but otherwise her movement is fairly slow and in that range you can punish turnip pulls and start to threaten whiffs with DACUS.
• Approach with bair, not fair. Bair not only lasts longer than fair for wallng out projectiles/attack, but it is also MUCH safer. It is still punishable, but once you get into the mid range against Peach you can duck under turnips and just mess up all of her approaches with bair.
• She is slower, use that to your advantage. Her most threatening form of movement is float, but with bair we have the tools to beat that out entirely. If she is above us she is completely disadvantaged. Use your better dash dance to slowly get in on her and force her into a corner where she has to commit to something and punish.
• When she is above you note that while floaty, her weight can allow her to escape some combos. You tried to overextend a few times and she nair'd you out of combos. In these situations you NEED to out space her. repeatedly uair, fair, whatever to hit her out of the air. Use nairs large hitbox to your advantage. Bacon also shines at keeping floaties above you because it travels in a somewhat reliable upwards arc. You can angle bacon up to make it more reliable.
• I do not think bacon in neutral is stellar against Peach. Turnips will body bacon and smack you around. Where bacon does excel is if she's above you or off stage recovering from around even of the ledge or higher/lower by a bit. Use bacon with confidence. Here is when it is crucial to launch bacon and follow the path so you get follow ups. I am guilty of this as well, I will launch bacon just to launch it, but don't move forward to take advantage of it hitting or even run away.
• I've had success with just nair to catch her recovering. It's big enough and her movement is predictable enough to catch her with this and it will KO her without further repeated edgeguard attempts.
• When she grabs you ALWAYS immediately DI up because fthrow is her fastest and most deadly throw. If you notice she's in the animation of dthrow that's when you can DI away behind her.

Thanks so much for your input, I'll try and figure out how to implement what you've suggested. I definitely need to break some bad habits and implement tech I know I can do in a better way.

 

[jtm94]

Some of it I didn't bring up because you were making mistakes, but it was just things that I've learned from facing Peach in general. By no means am I the end-all-be-all Peach expert, just try to rewatch your set after reading all of the advice and think about how/when/where you can apply everything and what went wrong.

Rewatching your own sets can lead into tons of personal breakthroughs and help you find out bad habits or just small things you do that no one else notices. It is INCREDIBLY pivotal on the road to getting better. You have so much to gain from watching your own losses it's ridiculous. Please refer back to what I said a few times if you need to, but make sure to constantly think as you watch your own set... Why did I get hit here? How can I avoid it? Did the combo have to end there? What can I do to make it last longer? Self-evaluation and just simply the acceptance of seeing your own play can help you improve dramatically. It's especially useful for you because you have so much footage to watch through.

 

[The 9!]

I'm not sure if this is the thread where people were posting videos of themselves and asking for critiques but here's my first streamed match and I'd love some opinions on my play!

Skip to 1:01:10 in the vod: http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/656794090

I got 2-0'ed this set by HBA Zubat. He's a great player and a hilarious guy and I had a lot of fun playing with him. I was a little nervous as this was the first time I ever played on stream (I can point out several tech flubs that led to me dying) but overall I was decently happy with my performance. I thought I came out strong both matches but got lost my edge by the end of them. The biggest issue for me was having no experience in the yoshi matchup and eggs were a HUGE issue for me in this set as I'm already not that great at dealing with most projectiles.

I'd love to hear your comments and opinions on what I did right/wrong. Thanks!

 

[cruised]

Try to pay attention to what happened each time you chose to use short hop bacon when there was a certain amount of space between you and Yoshi. The times you got attacked were times when your use of Chef wasn't threatening enough and you'd might as well have been short hopping in place. Maybe chef just isn't a great choice in ground level neutral against Yoshi since NAir just plows through bacon. The biggest thing you should take away from this because it most likely apply to all matchups is not to autopilot your Chefs whenever you notice a certain amount of space between you and the opponent.

Pointing out a few habits from game 2. A lot of your defensive decisions were too hasty or inconsiderate of your opponent's awareness. You used bucket out of upB coming back towards the stage when there were no times before when Yoshi would try to catch your landing so he got an even easier target to hit. You tended to double jump straight up out of hitstun even though your opponent might not have been close or going for a juggle, that removes a lot maneuverability getting back onto the ground. And maybe because of that habit, I would say that your defensive use of upB was too liberal in the wrong situations. There were severla times when you could have upB'd out of shield and it was weird to not see that common option used. Also, you always b-reversed Chef after upB but you were often way too high up to effectively throw off any juggles. Be aware of where your opponent is when you find yourself in a disadvantageous situation and don't make it harder for yourself to get to a safe position.

I saw some good movement in the sets and it sucked that you were knocked into the air for most of the second game. Maybe you should avoid tri-platform stages against Yoshi until you're more familiar with what Yoshi can do. And I think Zubat's crew has a GnW so your matchup knowledge was simply mismatched with his. You can also learn from his perspective by looking at what moves he did in reaction to yours to find out which parts of the matchup he's confident in, like his use of grab or his placement of eggs. That's all I can think of but there is definitely a lot more you can learn by yourself. I was very vague because I don't really know the matchup or the game well myself but I hope I helped.

 

[The 9!]

Try to pay attention to what happened each time you chose to use short hop bacon when there was a certain amount of space between you and Yoshi. The times you got attacked were times when your use of Chef wasn't threatening enough and you'd might as well have been short hopping in place. Maybe chef just isn't a great choice in ground level neutral against Yoshi since NAir just plows through bacon. The biggest thing you should take away from this because it most likely apply to all matchups is not to autopilot your Chefs whenever you notice a certain amount of space between you and the opponent.

Pointing out a few habits from game 2. A lot of your defensive decisions were too hasty or inconsiderate of your opponent's awareness. You used bucket out of upB coming back towards the stage when there were no times before when Yoshi would try to catch your landing so he got an even easier target to hit. You tended to double jump straight up out of hitstun even though your opponent might not have been close or going for a juggle, that removes a lot maneuverability getting back onto the ground. And maybe because of that habit, I would say that your defensive use of upB was too liberal in the wrong situations. There were severla times when you could have upB'd out of shield and it was weird to not see that common option used. Also, you always b-reversed Chef after upB but you were often way too high up to effectively throw off any juggles. Be aware of where your opponent is when you find yourself in a disadvantageous situation and don't make it harder for yourself to get to a safe position.

I saw some good movement in the sets and it sucked that you were knocked into the air for most of the second game. Maybe you should avoid tri-platform stages against Yoshi until you're more familiar with what Yoshi can do. And I think Zubat's crew has a GnW so your matchup knowledge was simply mismatched with his. You can also learn from his perspective by looking at what moves he did in reaction to yours to find out which parts of the matchup he's confident in, like his use of grab or his placement of eggs. That's all I can think of but there is definitely a lot more you can learn by yourself. I was very vague because I don't really know the matchup or the game well myself but I hope I helped.

Thanks for your input. I'll definitely think about how close I am to my enemy before using shorthop bacon and I'll consider other options. I was definitely auto piloting a lot, partially because I was a little nervous and also because of my lack of matchup experience. Next time I'll have the presence of mind to consider my other options before pressing a button without thinking.

 

[The 9!]

I'm not sure if this is the thread where people were posting videos of themselves and asking for critiques but here's my first streamed match and I'd love some opinions on my play!

Skip to 1:01:10 in the vod: http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/656794090

I got 2-0'ed this set by HBA Zubat. He's a great player and a hilarious guy and I had a lot of fun playing with him. I was a little nervous as this was the first time I ever played on stream (I can point out several tech flubs that led to me dying) but overall I was decently happy with my performance. I thought I came out strong both matches but got lost my edge by the end of them. The biggest issue for me was having no experience in the yoshi matchup and eggs were a HUGE issue for me in this set as I'm already not that great at dealing with most projectiles.

I'd love to hear your comments and opinions on what I did right/wrong. Thanks!

In case someone sees that game but wants more footage to critique I got 3 streamed matches at the last weekly and did a lot better. Here's the link:

http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/658875216
-1:10:40 - Winner's bracket - vs. Risen (Marth) L 2-0
-2:10:40 - Loser's Quarters - vs. Mulldrifter (Dedede) W 2-1
-2:28:45 - Loser's Semis - vs. Nevergreen (Captain Falcon) L 2-0

 

[jtm94]

I'll get around to watching them soon

 

[Smaggles]

I apologize since this is probably asked a lot, I looked around and couldn't find any information on this anywhere.
Who do you guys think is/are ideal to have as a secondary? I'm looking for someone to play against characters like Marth that just shut Gdubbs down like there's no tomorrow.

 

[jtm94]

Sheik does good against most the cast Marth included.
DDD beats Marth but is weirder to play as.

 

[jtm94]

So @ Dakpo how about Luigi?
I like the part where you dtilt his shield and died at 60 for it.

 

[Dakpo]

Character is so busted lol. I've been on a smash training vacation around my state so I haven't had time to sit down and watch them, but I don't think I've ever felt that I have lost to a character rather than player more in more entire life.

 

[jtm94]

I could see it in your eyes.

You could have avoided a few of the UpB KOs, but I think you had already mentally checked out at that point.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Would you guys have any rough estimates or ideas on the missing spots in my chart?

 

[jtm94]

Would you guys have any rough estimates or ideas on the missing spots in my chart?

I've been running our list past a few people.
The last to check it will be Dakpo.

 

[Dakpo]

I've been running our list past a few people.
The last to check it will be Dakpo.

i've been summoned

 

[jtm94]

i've been summoned

How was LTC3? I didn't get to catch you. I saw part of doubles Grand Finals and the end of singles around winners semis.

I ran this past Shockbound to get his input. This is in no way perfect or complete, but is a solid basis imo for GnW MUs until we get further input.
Bowser: +3
Captain Falcon: +1
Charizard: +!
Diddy Kong: -1
Donkey Kong: 0
Falco: 0
Fox: -1
GnW: /
Ganondorf: +1
Ice Climbers: +1
Ike: 0
Ivy: +1
Jigglypuff: +1
King Dedede: 0
Kirby: +1
Link: -2
Lucario: +2
Lucas: 0
Luigi: 0
Mario: 0
Marth: -3
Meta Knight: -1
Mewtwo: +2
Ness: +1
Olimar: +2
Peach: -1
Pikachu: ?
Pit: -1
R.O.B.: 0
Roy: -1
Samus: 0
Sheik: 0
Snake: +1
Sonic: 0
Squirtle: +2
Toon Link: -1
Wario: 0
Wolf: 0
Yoshi: +1
Zelda: +1
Zero Suit Samus: 0

Please go through and edit as you see fit.

 

[Dakpo]

I dropped out of singles at LTC 3

Bowser: +1
Captain Falcon: +1
Charizard: 0
Diddy Kong: +1
Donkey Kong: +1
Falco: -2
Fox: -2
GnW: /
Ganondorf: +1
Ice Climbers: +1
Ike: 0
Ivy: +1
Jigglypuff: +1
King Dedede: +1
Kirby: +1
Link: -2
Lucario: +1
Lucas: 0
Luigi: 0
Mario: 0
Marth: -3
Meta Knight: -1
Mewtwo: 0
Ness: +1
Olimar: +1
Peach: +1
Pikachu: 0
Pit: -1
R.O.B.: +2
Roy: -2
Samus: +1
Sheik: -1
Snake: +1
Sonic: -1
Squirtle: 0
Toon Link: -2
Wario: 0
Wolf: -1
Yoshi: 0
Zelda: +1
Zero Suit Samus: 0

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

This looks interesting. Thanks guys.