"Ask Not for Whom the Bell Tolls..." Game and Watch Matchup + Discussion

[jtm94]

There's a few characters I wouldn't go GnW against because the game becomes unnecessarily tedious. I have in the end put a lot of hours into GnW and weeks of playing only as him. It always ends in strife and being let down. It's entirely possible I'm terrible. I'll try my hand at it Friday at a tourney.

 

[shapular]

Try to get some video if you can so we can see what you're doing and what you could be doing better.

Fwiw, it took me a lot longer than a few weeks or whatever to be able to play G&W well. The first time I used him in PM was probably all the way back in late 2009/early 2010 way before the first demo even came out. When 1.0 came out, I played that for probably two or three months, but I couldn't figure out how to use him well. It took me a long time to figure out that uair wasn't completely useless. Then over the next few years, I tried out each new version for a day or two and figured out a little bit more about G&W each time. I started playing it regularly when 3.0 came out, and over the next few months I was slowly finally realizing how G&W was supposed to be used effectively. Even when I saw Nintendude's matches from CW6 and for the first time saw the full potential of G&W, it took me a couple of months to really get everything tight and to be able to use G&W to his fullest extent. I made a list for myself of all the things I needed to work on with him, and one by one I forced myself to implement each thing into my gameplay. The whole list is almost 30 things, and I've gotten almost all of them down by working on one thing at a time. It's made my G&W a lot better, and has probably made me a better player in general. I'd recommend you do this.

 

[ImpossiblyRood]

There's a few characters I wouldn't go GnW against because the game becomes unnecessarily tedious. I have in the end put a lot of hours into GnW and weeks of playing only as him. It always ends in strife and being let down. It's entirely possible I'm terrible. I'll try my hand at it Friday at a tourney.

(just kidding, bb. <3)


Game and Watch is one of those characters - in my view - that if you don't completely love how he plays, you're better off dropping him. He's so unusual and polarized that if you really have to commit to learning his combos - moreso than other, more popular, characters.

I expect I'll get bodied this weekend at GUTS 3, but hopefully G'dubs will be my champion of victory.

 

[jtm94]

Alright I have some sorta recent video of my GnW.
This is the most recent, I use a lot of hammers because friendlies and I don't feel comfortable using DACUS vs Sonic. I was doing decent game 1, but game 2 he started playing less interactive/sporatic so I couldn't read his movements. I just kept whiffing stuff I should hit and it becomes embarrassing at some points. We've both gotten better since then and he's who I play with the most. He also uses Peach, DK, and Marth. I hate Peach and Marth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqWRrdTnjYk

This one is from last school year, but it was when I was feeling more confident in my GnW. My buddy Pelet was also sort of new to the game and had switched over from Brawl about 2 months prior, but he was good in there. I hate being above Olimar and you'll see why because he picks up on it. I like nair because it outranges him if I place it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqWRrdTnjYk

Going to a tourney tomorrow and thinking about soloing GnW, but I will probably switch off if I see Peach, Marth, or Fox. Leave any harsh criticisms so I can practice tomorrow pre-tourney.

 

[shapular]

As I suspected, you're attacking where Sonic is instead of where he's going to be. He's too fast for that.

I think you need to work on general things more than anything else: L-canceling consistently, shffling, spacing, reads, dash dancing, wavedashing. It's not very useful trying to learn character-specific things when you don't have a good foundation to build them onto. Not only will it help your G&W, it'll help any character you play in any game.

 

[jtm94]

All of those things have been improved as well as my approach to Sonic. I can't attack first because I will get punished. Bacon helps control Sonic's movement. Ftilt works at the edge if Sonic tries to recover for free with homing attack, dtilt punishes lack of sweetspot. I guess giving a friendly for advice wasn't the best, but hopefully I will make it on stream tomorrow.

Thank you for taking a look at it.

I've realized that even more as of late I do miss l-cancels on bair depending on how many hitboxes connect. And I miss the l-cancel almost always on dair only when the meteor hitbox connects because of the additional lag. I practiced those things too much alone and that's my issue.

Is it possible to jab cancel with GnW? I used to think everyone could do it, but I was just testing jab into grab and dtilt. And no matter which angle I try to jab cancel it isn't any faster. That explains why I infinite jab sometimes because I assume the jab cancel lets me dtilt or grab faster.

I get different mindsets with every character I play and I think GnW has the worst one. Techs and things I would read as Sheik go unpunished for some reason because I don't think about them. I'm going to try my best tomorrow to implement good fundamentals instead of doing weird things.

 

[Artimus]

Secretly, GW is the best character.
Because he is who we chose to play.
That's all there is to it.

 

[Artimus]

Alright I have some sorta recent video of my GnW.
This is the most recent, I use a lot of hammers because friendlies and I don't feel comfortable using DACUS vs Sonic. I was doing decent game 1, but game 2 he started playing less interactive/sporatic so I couldn't read his movements. I just kept whiffing stuff I should hit and it becomes embarrassing at some points. We've both gotten better since then and he's who I play with the most. He also uses Peach, DK, and Marth. I hate Peach and Marth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqWRrdTnjYk

This one is from last school year, but it was when I was feeling more confident in my GnW. My buddy Pelet was also sort of new to the game and had switched over from Brawl about 2 months prior, but he was good in there. I hate being above Olimar and you'll see why because he picks up on it. I like nair because it outranges him if I place it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqWRrdTnjYk

Going to a tourney tomorrow and thinking about soloing GnW, but I will probably switch off if I see Peach, Marth, or Fox. Leave any harsh criticisms so I can practice tomorrow pre-tourney.

There was absolutely no movement at all. You seriously need to just MOVE more and be more aware of what is happening. GW has pretty good movement, all things considered.

I'm pretty sure I have the most Sonic MU experience on the planet, and yes, it's frustrating. Especially when the Sonic is really ****ing good, lol. (Like the one I always have to play.) BUT. It's still in our favor, move more and use the jank to your advantage.

 

[shapular]

Well, it finally happened. A couple of my friends caught up to me and they happen to play characters that beat G&W so I'm kind of screwed. Fortunately I only have to deal with this until next Friday, and then I get to play a real non-janky game again.

 

[jtm94]

My GnW is starting to actually get better acknowledging how terrible I am.
My problem is staying motivated against better characters. I know I can beat sonic, in practice I beat sonic, but in tourney I lose to sonic and I don't know why.

This was the match where I did terrible:
http://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/b/570214037
at 50:00

 

[Artimus]

My GnW is starting to actually get better acknowledging how terrible I am.
My problem is staying motivated against better characters. I know I can beat sonic, in practice I beat sonic, but in tourney I lose to sonic and I don't know why.

This was the match where I did terrible:
http://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/b/570214037
at 50:00

There are a lot of moments where you throw out a move that clearly isn't safe. Sonic was way above you and you were D-tilting. If you commit to a tilt, U-tilt is your go to for character with dive-kick like aerials.

Here's a detailed "How To Beat Sonic" Info Thing:

1. Be aware of his movements and know his mix up game. Side-B can be jump canceled, so watch out for multiple side-b's and the JCG. Try not to CC this move to much, or you'll see your damage skyrocket out of no where. If you do CC it, hold shield and use Up-B OoS. Sonic has a hard time dealing with it.

2. Lean the mechanics of his down-b in and out. It can be stopped with R, but there is a ton of end lag. It does **** for damage and only racks up if you let it. Practice wave-dashing OoS or make good use of rolls. Not only is WDOoS a really handy tool for EVERY character, but GW gets a ton of mileage out of it by escaping those shenanigans.

3. When Sonic homing attacks your shield, you can punish with u-air OoS almost 100% of the time. It's so free and you can combo out of it with ease. Try and learn the difference between a blast-attack and homing attack, however.

4. Mash the **** out of Up-B under pressure. Sonic can't do anything about it. He also has a really hard time covering a non-sweet spotted up-b to the ledge. If Sonic is above you, the D-air is coming, just expect it. U-tilt if you have time, move away if you don't.

5. Save your jump when recovering whenever possible, this isn't just for Sonic, but all the time. Just do it.

6. Try not to turn your back to him so much. D-tilt, F-tilt, F-air all out range and out prioritize ALL of his moves. B-air is for spacing and combo followups. He will catch you running away, I promise. Everytime. Seriously. I'm not kidding man.

7. Use your bacon sparingly. Sonic is fast enough to get under it and punish, and nair cuts right through it. I typically use it only when they are on a platform or above me. Use D-air sparingly as well. Only use it in situations where you know it will hit, because Sonic can just run behind you and grab. Everytime. Actually, just don't use any laggy moves like D-air on non-confirm.

8. D-tilt A LOT.

9. Profit.

 

[Joshua Tenner]

*Accidental repost*

 

[Joshua Tenner]

In a lot of my matchups so far (and in the lab,) I've found that the down tilt is only situationally good. Down tilt by the ledge gives a good edge guard, but there's no reason to spam it like most of the game and watches I have seen. The active frames are minimal compared to the larger utility and range of the forward tilt. This will actively leave you open for punishes against fast characters specifically like sonic and fox. Of course, if you find yourself in a dangerous situation, you are almost better off mashing UP B to escape.

I'd say place forward tilts where sonic is going to be rather than using and spamming down tilts unless you are willing to accept a punish on failure. Again, this is only what I've seen personally.

Another thing, save your jump! You don't need it. Up B is way too strong for this game and comes out really fast. Just watch out using it by the ledge for obvious reasons when escaping.

I can't emphasise enough how good the forward tilt is. I use it in combos, as a spacing and ranging tool, and as a kill move at high percents.

Against a pretty decent fox, from underneath the stage I nailed a 4 hit combo. Up B (hit near the top of the arc) => Dair (Both hits, sweet and sour above and on the stage) => F Tilt right (toward the edge sour spot on GW's body) => F Tilt left (sweet spot). That's right. Ftilt => Reverse Ftilt.

Another good pressure stopper is his Bair and Dair, because the hitboxes stay out forever! Pivot => Bair right where sonic will be stops him dead in his tracks, even if he shields. Leave it up for as many hits as possible to achieve the maximum effect.

 

[jtm94]

Sonic's bair is pretty good to punish me if I don't sweet spot.
Sonic is the one character besides Link that I have the most MU experience against, I just give up if I get off to a bad start which is a mindset thing. I'm going to stay Sheik from now on against Sonic, but I appreciate the advice.

I'd honestly rather use bair any day then fair. Fair is really bad against Sonic because of the lag on it and I find a hard time landing the strong hit unless I get it guaranteed. I'm getting better at UpBing away. I do agree on Bacon, it's just habit using it so much. I'll try to ftilt less, but it seems really sub optimal and slow to use in neutral.

 

[shapular]

Sonic is the one character besides Link that I have the most MU experience against, I just give up if I get off to a bad start which is a mindset thing.

What I had to learn to tell myself is that if they can take a stock off me without me doing much damage to them, that's proof that it can be done and I should be able to do it to them. Remember that stocks in PM can go by very quickly, and if all else fails, you have the ultimate comeback tool in your arsenal (but don't count on that too much). Also remember that changing your mindset takes practice just like anything else, so don't get discouraged if you can't change it right away. I think the best way to change your mindset is to actually tell yourself things in the middle of a match. You have to think to yourself, "Jtm, you just got bopped by Sonic that stock, but you're just as good as this guy and you can do the same thing to him. Now just play like you always do. You can do it." Once you've made enough comebacks you'll actually start to become confident in your ability to do it.

 

[Artimus]

D-Tilt? Situationally good?

If the situation is: "Are they on the ground and doing things?" Then yes, it's good situationally.

Edit: "Are they doing anything else that isn't directly above you?"

 

[Controlled_Chaos]

Can someone give me good videos and tips against wario and fox, please?

 

[Joshua Tenner]

D-Tilt? Situationally good?

If the situation is: "Are they on the ground and doing things?" Then yes, it's good situationally.

Edit: "Are they doing anything else that isn't directly above you?"

I just want to be clear on my reasoning.

7 active frames (good for combos and punishing) (29 - 7 = 22 standing frames) (16 recovery frames)

17 active frames (ok for combos and kills on stages like wario-ware) (44 - 17 = 27 standing frames)
Has better range, and almost the same hit-bubble locations (slightly higher than down tilt but also covers more area). (14 recovery frames) means 2 frames less time for your opponent to react and actually get in.

Against sonic, I'd rather have the f-tilt.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I want to get better.

 

[shapular]

I just want to be clear on my reasoning.

7 active frames (good for combos and punishing) (29 - 7 = 22 standing frames) (16 recovery frames)

17 active frames (ok for combos and kills on stages like wario-ware) (44 - 17 = 27 standing frames)
Has better range, and almost the same hit-bubble locations (slightly higher than down tilt but also covers more area). (14 recovery frames) means 2 frames less time for your opponent to react and actually get in.

Against sonic, I'd rather have the f-tilt.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I want to get better.

Those are from Melee. I'm almost certain PM dtilt is longer than Melee dtilt (but not as long as Brawl dtilt seriously PMBR wtf), and I'm pretty sure PM ftilt has active frames all the way to the end of the move. I don't know how that actually applies to your analysis, I'm just saying. I prefer ftilt against Sonic if he's approaching straight at me and utilt if he's jumping. I probably don't use dtilt enough actually. I think that's a carryover from Brawl where it's a poke/keep out/edgeguarding move, and PM ftilt is better at those things in general.

 

[Yung Mei]

I just want to be clear on my reasoning.

7 active frames (good for combos and punishing) (29 - 7 = 22 standing frames) (16 recovery frames)

17 active frames (ok for combos and kills on stages like wario-ware) (44 - 17 = 27 standing frames)
Has better range, and almost the same hit-bubble locations (slightly higher than down tilt but also covers more area). (14 recovery frames) means 2 frames less time for your opponent to react and actually get in.

Against sonic, I'd rather have the f-tilt.

Someone please tell me I'm wrong, I want to get better.

get PM frame data, this aint melee GNW

 

[jtm94]

Debug mode will be out soon enough. I'm done fiddling with GnW frame data. I can tell you what frame things hit on via frame advance code though.

Ftilt hits on frame 9, dtilt hits on frame 6. I tried using ftilt more against GnW with laughable results. So I basically just walked around and would tilt accordingly and it kind of worked. It's a pain because ftilt and utilt aren't the fastest thing so I get beat out from spontaneous movement, but at the edge it crushes bad sonic because of homing attack and lack of sweetspot. If Sonic gets hit at the edge his only course of action is homing attack if blast attack won't save him, and homing goes right into the chair.

 

[Artimus]

Let me be clear on my reasoning too. D-tilt is god like. F-tilt is only good for panic "Get away from me" moments and characters with hard to sweet spot recovering, like DDD and Metaknight etc. Even still, D-tilt is better if you space well. F-tilt is okay, D-tilt is much better in every regard besides hitbox size, that is it.

 

[jtm94]

Dtilt is more disjoint though, use it for Roy.
I think dtilt may send lower as well compared to ftilt.

 

[Artimus]

Dtilt is more disjoint though, use it for Roy.
I think dtilt may send lower as well compared to ftilt.

Yes.

 

[Sartron]

Debug mode will be out soon enough. I'm done fiddling with GnW frame data. I can tell you what frame things hit on via frame advance code though.

Ftilt hits on frame 9,

Ftilt actually hits frame 10. >_>

I've had the frame thread for G&W done for a while but I've barely done any of the GIFs for him.

 

[jtm94]

Ftilt actually hits frame 10. >_>

I've had the frame thread for G&W done for a while but I've barely done any of the GIFs for him.

Ahh, frame advance can only get me so close.

Debug mode will exist soon enough.

 

[shapular]

I don't think 3.5 is ever coming out. At least, by the time it does come out it won't matter since Smash 4 will be out. I'll still play it for All-Star Versus though.

 

[jtm94]

Implying Smash 4 will affect PM strongly.

I honestly believe they're waiting for Smash 4 to be done coming out so they know what they can include..

 

[DarkStarStorm]

In a lot of my matchups so far (and in the lab,) I've found that the down tilt is only situationally good. Down tilt by the ledge gives a good edge guard, but there's no reason to spam it like most of the game and watches I have seen. The active frames are minimal compared to the larger utility and range of the forward tilt. This will actively leave you open for punishes against fast characters specifically like sonic and fox. Of course, if you find yourself in a dangerous situation, you are almost better off mashing UP B to escape.

I'd say place forward tilts where sonic is going to be rather than using and spamming down tilts unless you are willing to accept a punish on failure. Again, this is only what I've seen personally.

Another thing, save your jump! You don't need it. Up B is way too strong for this game and comes out really fast. Just watch out using it by the ledge for obvious reasons when escaping.

I can't emphasise enough how good the forward tilt is. I use it in combos, as a spacing and ranging tool, and as a kill move at high percents.

Against a pretty decent fox, from underneath the stage I nailed a 4 hit combo. Up B (hit near the top of the arc) => Dair (Both hits, sweet and sour above and on the stage) => F Tilt right (toward the edge sour spot on GW's body) => F Tilt left (sweet spot). That's right. Ftilt => Reverse Ftilt.

Another good pressure stopper is his Bair and Dair, because the hitboxes stay out forever! Pivot => Bair right where sonic will be stops him dead in his tracks, even if he shields. Leave it up for as many hits as possible to achieve the maximum effect.

D-tilt can start combos, f-tilt stops them in their tracks and is an anti-approach move. One is not better than another, they have different uses entirely. You're comparing apples and oranges because they both grow on trees, but they are in different families.

There are a lot of moments where you throw out a move that clearly isn't safe. Sonic was way above you and you were D-tilting. If you commit to a tilt, U-tilt is your go to for character with dive-kick like aerials.

Here's a detailed "How To Beat Sonic" Info Thing:

1. Be aware of his movements and know his mix up game. Side-B can be jump canceled, so watch out for multiple side-b's and the JCG. Try not to CC this move to much, or you'll see your damage skyrocket out of no where. If you do CC it, hold shield and use Up-B OoS. Sonic has a hard time dealing with it.

2. Lean the mechanics of his down-b in and out. It can be stopped with R, but there is a ton of end lag. It does **** for damage and only racks up if you let it. Practice wave-dashing OoS or make good use of rolls. Not only is WDOoS a really handy tool for EVERY character, but GW gets a ton of mileage out of it by escaping those shenanigans.

3. When Sonic homing attacks your shield, you can punish with u-air OoS almost 100% of the time. It's so free and you can combo out of it with ease. Try and learn the difference between a blast-attack and homing attack, however.

4. Mash the **** out of Up-B under pressure. Sonic can't do anything about it. He also has a really hard time covering a non-sweet spotted up-b to the ledge. If Sonic is above you, the D-air is coming, just expect it. U-tilt if you have time, move away if you don't.

5. Save your jump when recovering whenever possible, this isn't just for Sonic, but all the time. Just do it.

6. Try not to turn your back to him so much. D-tilt, F-tilt, F-air all out range and out prioritize ALL of his moves. B-air is for spacing and combo followups. He will catch you running away, I promise. Everytime. Seriously. I'm not kidding man.

7. Use your bacon sparingly. Sonic is fast enough to get under it and punish, and nair cuts right through it. I typically use it only when they are on a platform or above me. Use D-air sparingly as well. Only use it in situations where you know it will hit, because Sonic can just run behind you and grab. Everytime. Actually, just don't use any laggy moves like D-air on non-confirm.

8. D-tilt A LOT.

9. Profit.

Pivot f-smashes work great for me, but don't commit to them...

I don't think 3.5 is ever coming out. At least, by the time it does come out it won't matter since Smash 4 will be out. I'll still play it for All-Star Versus though.

Smash 4 is bad; it has a bad system of DI, rewards you for playing badly, and because of the bad DI system combos will be few are fare between. The ONLY improvement between Brawl and Smash 4 is a more balanced cast.

Oh btw, I'm now maining G&W so you'll see me more often guys!

 

[jtm94]

Dtilt at low %s has a solid amount of hit stun to guarantee some follow ups depending on character weight/fall speed.

Fsmash hits around frame 13 so it really isn't that much slower than things like ftilt. I think it is a really good option because it's pretty strong if you get the good hitbox.

 

[shapular]

D-tilt can start combos, f-tilt stops them in their tracks and is an anti-approach move. One is not better than another, they have different uses entirely. You're comparing apples and oranges because they both grow on trees, but they are in different families.

Pivot f-smashes work great for me, but don't commit to them...

Smash 4 is bad; it has a bad system of DI, rewards you for playing badly, and because of the bad DI system combos will be few are fare between. The ONLY improvement between Brawl and Smash 4 is a more balanced cast.

Oh btw, I'm now maining G&W so you'll see me more often guys!

So different=bad now? I guess unsubstantiated claims are cool too. And PM definitely doesn't reward you for playing badly. Definitely not.

 

[jtm94]

It isn't something to be brought up here.
This is the GnW thread of Project M. If Project M isn't to your liking then leave when you stop enjoying it. If you find yourself still playing PM then continue as normal.

 

[Rᴏb]

playing badly --> losing
I don't understand how Smash 4 or PM could possibly reward you for that...

EDIT: forgot the rage mechanic was a thing, whoops

 

[shapular]

It isn't something to be brought up here.
This is the GnW thread of Project M. If Project M isn't to your liking then leave when you stop enjoying it. If you find yourself still playing PM then continue as normal.

Don't worry, I will. I'm only still here because almost nobody in my town plays Brawl.

How did the matchup thread end up becoming another general thread anyway? Can we move discussion to the real general thread and get back on track here? >.>

 

[jtm94]

The whole ftilt vs dtilt thing was brought up about Sonic primarily, so it hasn't really deviated that far.

I hate GnW vs Peach I would never play that MU if I could avoid it.

 

[shapular]

Would you go Zelda or Sheik or some other character against her?

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think 3.5 is ever coming out. At least, by the time it does come out it won't matter since Smash 4 will be out. I'll still play it for All-Star Versus though.

why not play both

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Would you go Zelda or Sheik or some other character against her?

Sheik. Peach is one of my worst MUs for Zelda; that's a different thread though.

 

[shapular]

why not play both

Why would I waste time practicing PM when I could be practicing Smash 4 instead? Btw, since you're PMBR, can I ask you directly if 3.5 is going to be out this year?

 

[Strong Badam]

Why would I waste time practicing PM when I could be practicing Smash 4 instead?

Because they're different games that offer different things? o_O Why is practicing a game that will still be widely popular as a tournament game be a waste of time?

Btw, since you're PMBR, can I ask you directly if 3.5 is going to be out this year?

You'll know when we announce a date, silly.