Ask a Qusestion. Get an Answer.

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Are... you serious?

Look at the frame data posted in the comment above.

 

[ftl]

What is Falco's best move for momentum canceling after DI?

I believe it is bair.

Xonar, the frame data presented there does not answer that question. What is needed is the total duration of an aerial, which is not there.

 

[p8nted]

I think nair ends the earliest. However, it doesn't matter because once you start an aerial it's possible to fastfall before the move ends. The duration of the move would only matter if Falco had something like bucket braking.

 

[Denzi]

I believe it is bair.

Yeah, Bair unless sent vertically, in which case Dair is the best because it auto fast falls.

Edit:

I think nair ends the earliest. However, it doesn't matter because once you start an aerial it's possible to fastfall before the move ends. The duration of the move would only matter if Falco had something like bucket braking.

Nair is bad because you can't perform it with the C-stick. That means that you can't be holding any direction when you need to Nair, which means you are unable to DI as effectively.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I believe it is bair.

Xonar, the frame data presented there does not answer that question. What is needed is the total duration of an aerial, which is not there.

my mistake.
my apologies

 

[J4pu]

Yeah, Bair unless sent vertically, in which case Dair is the best because it auto fast falls.

Edit:


Nair is bad because you can't perform it with the C-stick. That means that you can't be holding any direction when you need to Nair, which means you are unable to DI as effectively.

<3 Denzi
I didn't have to explain this for once

 

[pure_awesome]

Two corrections:

The duration of the move does matter, but only for horizontal knockback. The quicker the aerial the quicker you can double-jump, which decreases your momentum significantly.

Nair can be performed with the C-Stick. Just tap it lightly, diagonally. It's harder to do it spur of the moment than just slamming it in a specific direction, and Bair is better anyway, but it's still possible.




Anyway, here's the frame data for Phantasm. I'm kind of surprised nobody's done this yet. Let me know if there's anything else you guys want.

Grounded Phantasm:

Frame 1-16 - Start-up.
Frame 17 - "Ping" noise. Hitbox comes out. Press B to cancel at shortest possible distance.
Frame 18 - Press B to cancel at middle distance.
Frame 19 - Press B to cancel at longest distance.
Frame 20-54 - Cooldown.
Frame 55 - Other actions can be performed if the Phantasm was cancelled at any distance.
Frame 56-57 - Cooldown for uncancelled Phantasm.
Frame 58 - Other actions can be universally performed.

Perfect IAP

Frame 1-6 - Jump animation.
Frame 7-22 - Start-up.
Frame 23 - "Ping" noise. Hitbox comes out. Press B to cancel at shortest possible distance.
Frame 24 - Press B to cancel at mid distance.
Frame 25 - Press B to cancel at longest distance.
Frame 26-43 - Cooldown.
Frame 44 - Other actions can be performed if the Phantasm was cancelled at the shortest possible distance.
Frame 45 - Other actions can be performed if the Phantasm was cancelled at mid distance.
Frame 46 - Other actions can be performed if the Phantasm was cancelled at the longest distance.
Frame 47-50 - Cooldown for uncancelled Phantasm.
Frame 51 - Other actions can be universally performed.

 

[Denzi]

*Frame Data*

Good stuff, thanks for that.

 

[Beetle Juice]

ok i have a question, how many characters can falco chaingrab standing still? (simple question)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The number is pretty small. The only ones that come to mind are the fastfallers like fox and I think shiek. Wolf I'm pretty sure can be done standing still up to like 20%-30%.

 

[Beetle Juice]

oh ok thanks.
btw I just seen a good laser lock set up that was used on a wolf mid percents. It goes Dthrow>jab>laser lock (you guys probably know this already but just wanted to see if its known or not). I seen it in a match in japan (Rain's falco) so yea...

 

[Vlade]

Wow, only 1 frame difference between the different cancelling lengths when cancelling the phantasm?

 

[Denzi]

The number is pretty small. The only ones that come to mind are the fastfallers like fox and I think shiek. Wolf I'm pretty sure can be done standing still up to like 20%-30%.

Yeah, I can't think of anyone else that it would work on aside from maybe the Captain. None of them work for the full 45% though. The best you get is two (maybe three) throws.

oh ok thanks.
btw I just seen a good laser lock set up that was used on a wolf mid percents. It goes: (buffered)Dthrow>jab>laser lock
(you guys probably know this already but just wanted to see if its known or not). I seen it in a match in japan (Rain's falco) so yea...

Yeah, we knew about it. It works on a lot of the heavier/faster falling characters, but is reliant on their DI. It works from around 68% to a little past 100%.

Please try to avoid double posting.

 

[Beetle Juice]

lol yea sorry I didn't think the 1st one went through so I didn't see it there either

 

[pure_awesome]

Does Falco have anything out of footstool? Either grounded or in the air?

EDIT:

Wow, only 1 frame difference between the different cancelling lengths when cancelling the phantasm?

Yeah. Kinda makes sense that we've all been having so much trouble with it, eh?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Does Falco have anything out of footstool? Either grounded or in the air?

There are like 2 possbile things. I think on certain people you can get a footstool to immediate Dair.

The other is a LL set up on G&W when playing on luigi's mansion. If you Dthrow at low percents you have just a enough time to footstool G&W and when on the first floor of luigi's mansion that prevents most of the height gained on the jump and then you can FF down just in time to connect a LL. Only problem is that LL really only seems to work if G&W would land on his back. On the face it doesn't seem to work.

3 frames out of 60 to cancel phantasm to some length...

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Does Falco have anything out of footstool? Either grounded or in the air?

EDIT:

Yeah. Kinda makes sense that we've all been having so much trouble with it, eh?

*enter some random* I've been able to cancel phatasms perfectly for months and knew the frame data all along. I just thought it was common knowledge lol.

---
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181051

We had that. It seems to have fallen off the face of the board. I don't know if it was ever settled that the Dair could be rolled out of.

Funny how things work out. At the end of it somebody asked if you could skip the footstool, do Dthrow into Dair, and somehow go into a laser lock and everybody said no. Guess you proved them wrong huh?

 

[pure_awesome]

Woah. I must have missed that.

That's awesome. I'm going to test the crap out of that thing. If that's guaranteed... I just got an idea.

 

[Denzi]

Woah. I must have missed that.

That's awesome. I'm going to test the crap out of that thing. If that's guaranteed... I just got an idea.

Super combo?

*waits for news*

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Woah. I must have missed that.

That's awesome. I'm going to test the crap out of that thing. If that's guaranteed... I just got an idea.

Since you seem to be a lot better/more creative/have better resources than me, I just want to throw in the idea that you might be able to footstool out of a weak Utilt when the opponent is at low percentages or if it's staled.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I extremely doubt that would work, but it might if you did it under 10%. There is still the problem of how falco jumps too high from the stool to make the footstool comboable.

What if you did this. CG to the edge where running to SH Dair isn't possible and you use the jab. Most would DI/AI towards you and it would cancel the jump I think. Then you could try to footstool.

Edit: Nope doesn't work for the jab thing on the edge to footstool. Although SH dair is possible after the jab....

Actually after doing the testing. I think jab to standing dair is pretty dang unexpected and messes up with peoples timing for the teching.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

I extremely doubt that would work, but it might if you did it under 10%. There is still the problem of how falco jumps too high from the stool to make the footstool comboable.

What if you did this. CG to the edge where running to SH Dair isn't possible and you use the jab. Most would DI/AI towards you and it would cancel the jump I think. Then you could try to footstool.

Edit: Nope doesn't work for the jab thing on the edge to footstool. Although SH dair is possible after the jab....

Actually after doing the testing. I think jab to standing dair is pretty dang unexpected and messes up with peoples timing for the teching.

Hmm. I don't know if Marth just has a super low footstool, or if he's the only one with the special trait or what, but I know Marth can footstool > Dair spike or footstool > dancing blade and he won't gain much height off the jump at all. Would footstool > immediate dair cancel some out some of the height?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Every time marth gets a tipper he always stalls for a few frames before the knockback is applied. Perhaps when you get the tip that cancels out the remaining height gained because height jump is still being applied even though marth is in those few frames of the attack. After that all that is left is a little bit of height gained? Not sure just guessing.

I've tried connecting footstool > dair with falco facing the same way and not facing the same way, and it doesn't seem to reduce it by a whole lot. Just a little bit.

There still just doesn't seem to be too much to be applied for out of footstools, but perhaps there are some ideas on how to get a footstool to be applied offstage. Of course you then have to wonder would they even be worth doing as CG to spike to edgehog is still the pretty easy to do and extremely effective.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Every time marth gets a tipper he always stalls for a few frames before the knockback is applied. Perhaps when you get the tip that cancels out the remaining height gained because height jump is still being applied even though marth is in those few frames of the attack. After that all that is left is a little bit of height gained? Not sure just guessing.

I've tried connecting footstool > dair with falco facing the same way and not facing the same way, and it doesn't seem to reduce it by a whole lot. Just a little bit.

There still just doesn't seem to be too much to be applied for out of footstools, but perhaps there are some ideas on how to get a footstool to be applied offstage. Of course you then have to wonder would they even be worth doing as CG to spike to edgehog is still the pretty easy to do and extremely effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p3OacvYxV0

That's Marth appearing to cancel his footstool jump height with a SideB.

Anyway, as far as application goes, there's always the mixup/mindgame blah blah blah, but nobody every really takes that seriously enough. However, if your opponent learned how to DI towards the stage and tech CG > Spike, CG > Footstool > ? > Profit might be more effective. Footstool would be so **** if we could find a way to reliably follow up after it.

CG > Footstool offstage > Bair stage spike would be too good.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p3OacvYxV0

That's Marth appearing to cancel his footstool jump height with a SideB.

Anyway, as far as application goes, there's always the mixup/mindgame blah blah blah, but nobody every really takes that seriously enough. However, if your opponent learned how to DI towards the stage and tech CG > Spike, CG > Footstool > ? > Profit might be more effective. Footstool would be so **** if we could find a way to reliably follow up after it.

CG > Footstool offstage > Bair stage spike would be too good.

I agree with that last combo, that would be too good.

I think if I remeber SideB does some weird stuff with momentum. Just like how a fox gets extra height if he does a rising FH Fair or 2nd jump Fair. Snake goes farther if you do Fair when jumping up and AIing in a direction.

If I recall correctly, the teching thing can already be mindgamed. Since the teching is hard as it requires DI and SDI (maybe double stick)I think into the tech itself. So with that most people react as soon as they expect the Dair to come. If you just SH you can trick them into SDIing into a fair without actually connecting the Dair and most would Fair to there doom (on certain characters). How many people actually are able to tech the CG to Spike all the time anyway, plus how many can react quickly enough to know "oh, they will or won't be dairing me now". Pretty much it's done on muscle memory.

But yeah, if we could get a footstool as a mix up that would be great for abusing the ability to tech. I actually need to learn to tech the underside of the stage. Too many times I lost a match and could have lived if I just followed up with the DI into the tech.

If I just didn't lose wii previliges for the day I'd go and test out some new ideas I had.

 

[J4pu]

Firebird and phantasm stop momentum
FS > Dair works only on ROB when facing the same way (I forget who brought this up but it was only like 2 weeks ago)

 

[Shaya]

Hi, is it okay to make a topic asking videos to be critiqued? Or is there a centralised way?

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Hi, is it okay to make a topic asking videos to be critiqued? Or is there a centralised way?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219085

Not a lot of people use it, but you can always start. I'm sure everybody would appreciate it.

 

[Edrid]

What control scheme should I be using? I have default on now, but, for example, should I be B-sticking or C-sticking? Should I have Tap Jump ON or OFF? And is X or Z better for grabbing? (If X is, what should Z be set to?

Another question, if you ARE C-sticking, do you use it instead of analog + A, not at all, or for smashes and quick aerials (or something else)?

Thank you!

 

[SuSa]

Falco... I'd C-stick.... <_< B-sticking serves little purpose for Falco...

I turn TJ Off, its all preference. I played Melee and that was FORCED TJ On.... so a lot of people prefer it. It also makes OoS things easier to do. In fact, I may be switching back to TJ On but that ONE con of "you second jump before up-B" pisses me off about TJ On.

I have X AND Z set to grab.

I C-stick everything that I don't want to charge. I also only use analog stick for dair, as C-stick makes you auto-FF it.

 

[J4pu]

w/e works best for you
just keep in mind the AT's that require some difficult timing:
Gatling combo
Boost pivot grab
JC Usmash OoS
IAP

If you don't know what any of those are you can look in the stickies.

 

[pure_awesome]

I have C-Stick set to attack so that I can easily do non-fastfalled Dairs. It's all preference.

 

[Denzi]

I turn TJ Off, its all preference. I played Melee and that was FORCED TJ On.... so a lot of people prefer it. It also makes OoS things easier to do. In fact, I may be switching back to TJ On but that ONE con of "you second jump before up-B" pisses me off about TJ On.

Yeah, C-stick is the way to go. I leave TJ on for the OoS stuff (and because I'm used to it), but for a while I didn't. If you leave it off, you just have to make sure that you can JC Usmash with the jump button. Also, not using your midair jump before up B is just as easy as not losing it before an A-sticked Uair. Again, it really all comes down to what you're comfortable with.

@ other control changes:
I know that a lot of Falcos change other buttons to special for IAPs, and that the only way you're guaranteed the full Boost smash distance is if you change a shoulder button/Z to attack.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

@ other control changes:
I know that a lot of Falcos change other buttons to special for IAPs, and that the only way you're guaranteed the full Boost smash distance is if you change a shoulder button/Z to attack.

I have L set to attack and it's the only way I can really do a boost smash =/. But at least I get it consistently now.

I use C-stick for just about everything except tilts.

 

[clowsui]

IAPs are retardedly easy sliding from Y-B

 

[Hyo]

IAP isn't hard to do in the first place.

 

[J4pu]

well I use X for jump and a well done IAP is somewhat difficult for me to do using B, so I have R set to special.
you know you aren't supposed to leave the ground when you IAP right?
maybe i just have slow fingers.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

maybe i just have slow fingers.

We must test to tell if you have slow fingers. Type the sentence "I have slow fingers!" as many times as you possibly can in a minute. If you achieve that 15 times in a minute you have fingers as fast as me.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

We must test to tell if you have slow fingers. Type the sentence "I have slow fingers!" as many times as you possibly can in a minute. If you achieve that 15 times in a minute you have fingers as fast as me.

I did it 17 times whats the next challenge good sir.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Your next challenge is to quit living in a tree.