illinialex24
Smash Hero
Oh wow thanks. I really haven't been using jab or F-tilt very often, for some reason I looked over it (lol, Jigglypuff...).
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Ask a Qusestion. Get an Answer.
- Thread starter Darxmarth23
- Start date
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Yes! You should poke people a lot with jab and ftilt. Falco is the pokey bird. He likes to poke people with his 5 feathered pokey fingers on each arm and his leather boot of poking justice.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Not really. Dtilt has a bit less range, similar start up lag and similar cool down lag that Ftilt has. Only major difference is Dtilt sends them up and at low percents can lead into spikes or grabs and ftilt sends them flying horizontal pretty much.
Ftilt just gets them out of your face and is a lot less punishable to shieldgrabbing if you space at the edge of the attack.
So for the most part Dtilt just isn't as useful when compared to the uses ftilt has. Most of the time you would only want to use dtilt when mixing it up.
Jp4u suggested that since jab canceling is down by couching, in theory dtilt would be the fastest follow up from jab canceling as you have to crouch to cancel the jab.
Ftilt just gets them out of your face and is a lot less punishable to shieldgrabbing if you space at the edge of the attack.
So for the most part Dtilt just isn't as useful when compared to the uses ftilt has. Most of the time you would only want to use dtilt when mixing it up.
Jp4u suggested that since jab canceling is down by couching, in theory dtilt would be the fastest follow up from jab canceling as you have to crouch to cancel the jab.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
That actually sounds pretty nice. And does D-tilt combo to grabs at low percentages cause I thought I read that before... So if you are near the edge, you could go: Jab - Crouch Cancel - D-tilt- Chain-grab - Spike
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Single Jab > grab is easier to accomplish than jab cancling > dtilt > grab. Plus since dtilt > anything is not guranteed combo at low percents the person could escape.
You could do like you said but dtilt adds like 9 damage plus whatever damage the jabs and lasers you might have used before hand would. Thus when you go to CG you wouldn't get as many dthrows in and therefore not as much distance to get to the edge. Either way I suppose you still get damage and spiking leads to the tech chase.
You could do like you said but dtilt adds like 9 damage plus whatever damage the jabs and lasers you might have used before hand would. Thus when you go to CG you wouldn't get as many dthrows in and therefore not as much distance to get to the edge. Either way I suppose you still get damage and spiking leads to the tech chase.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Ok cool, I thought I heard it actually did combo so I was making sure. So yeah, I'd rather just go for the grab.
§witch
Smash Lord
Dtilt is bad, and situational at best. Jab>grab would be far more effective in that situation.
Runawayfire
Smash Lord
Has anyone ever actually checked the frame advantages of jab canceling vs not pressing down?
§witch
Smash Lord
I seem to remember it being said that crouch canceling is only worth it for jabx2. I'm not sure how reliable that is though.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
I thought the Star Fox Characters couldn't Jab Cancel......
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
And that's where the debate begins. No one actually seems to know for sure (prove backed up with frame data) that jab canceling even exists for Falco.
BleachigoZX
Smash Master
Link pl0x.
J4pu
Smash Champion
If we can't jump out, how could we possibly jump shine out?
stand next to a pikcahu and use IFHS (lmao I used the name) it won't hit him.
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
lol. IFHS. I still remember that dumb thread.
fragbait
Smash Master
Since no one read my post and there was absolutely no help (Q and A thread blah blah I don't know how to read)
Best way to get around Pit mirror gimp?
Best way to get around Pit mirror gimp?
Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Stop being predictable with your phantasm. You can stall it, extend it, or if you're brave....firebird to the stage or ledge. I assume he's done it enough you so you should kinda know the timing now, right?
GwJ
Smash Hero
Use variety. If you mix up phantasm and firefox, and location, it'll be harder to get gimped. Plus, if you really think you'll get gimped by it, recover high. Also, if you recovery straight up or down (Yes, recovering straight down) you can't be gimped by it.
Recoil
Smash Journeyman
Any advice on the Falco vs Olimar match up? >_<
You can simply refer to it as jump shine or jump shining (shine + jump, etc.)
Emperor Time, the hate is unnecessary. J4pu, I will concede that I only tested in close proximity with Snake, and it did hit him using it on the ground, but that's not the point here. I'm assuming the hitbox of the shine attack comes out on the frame the jump is initiated, unless testing proves otherwise. Therefore, the hitbox of shine will knock Pikachu out of the regrab at higher percentages.
If the shine cannot hit doing this, than it must have something to do with Pikachu's height, as I was able to hit Snake using it up close. As such, you will probably not be able to hit Metaknight with it either. If this has been tested and proven otherwise, I will concede that it's not a viable tactic.
EDIT: And well, the reason I made it an acronym in the first place is because simply saying you shine and you jump is not very specific. Do I have to get into this again lol? Performing a shine at a short-hop distance gives you landing lag. Performing a shine and a full jump gives you landing lag. Performing a shine and a jump instantaneously, gives you room to airdodge, use an aerial etc. before you hit the ground.
gunterrsmash01
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,533
wait till your under the stage, then fire bird.
Shine isnt a very good attack (only good for defense occsaionaly) , why are people trying to find uses for it?
fragbait
Smash Master
Ok, so what about when you are on your way up, and you aren't lined up with the ledge for a phantasm? Everyone seems to forget that. And Firebirding is the thing that gets you gimped in the first place? If someone hadn't locked my last thread, I covered that in there. If it's still floating look at that.
J4pu
Smash Champion
yea, snake is 3-4 times taller than Pikachu.
/obvious
@doadrin, if you are ever forced to use firebird against any character it's basically a stock, the mirror is just a fancier way to gimp it, A simple edge-hog from anybody else will achieve the same effect.
the only way to avoid it is by not getting put in a position where you have to use firebird.
Please tell me...why anything is discovered in the later days of a fighting game's metagame? Because people fooled around with things that were not immediately obvious. How did people know Wolf could break out Pikachu's chaingrab at higher percents? Because people fooled around with the game, trying everything they could.
We all know the whole story about Melee and wavedashing (or maybe we don't). Even Jigglypuff is putting up a fight with the best characters in the country (in Melee). Was this immediately obvious (how potentially broken Jigglypuff is in the right hands)? Probably not.
Everything that is discovered from here on out in Brawl's metagame will be things, tactics, strategies, techs, and combos that were not immediately obvious, or were outright dismissed as being useless at fight glance. Or things people just never tried or attempted to do in certain situations. EVERYTHING.
Thinking outside the box.
J4pu
Smash Champion
gimp, GIMP, GIMP
yea, okay, nobody disagrees with that, it's the people coming in here with things that don't work that gets annoying.
if you want to create a game-changing tactic or w/e then figure one out, don't come in here with failed ideas and try to show them off like they are game-changing.
It's helpful to have a decent understanding of competitive smash to understand whether or not your tactic is useful.
logic and tournament experience, mainly the latter are how you would know.
Honestly, Brawl (or Melee or Brawl +) doesn't mean that much to me. It's just entertainment to me. Watching the top players on Youtube in my spare time.
So again, J4pu, maybe everyone dismissed it (shining and jumping at the same time) as something where there is always a better alternative. I was just trying to give hints as to where, it could have some use. It's not game changing. Never said it was. Never was trying to mark my name on some tech like an elitist douche.
I was just trying to contribute in some meaningful way, which seems more than most people do around here. Spam and flame other people. How helpful.
So again, J4pu, maybe everyone dismissed it (shining and jumping at the same time) as something where there is always a better alternative. I was just trying to give hints as to where, it could have some use. It's not game changing. Never said it was. Never was trying to mark my name on some tech like an elitist douche.
I was just trying to contribute in some meaningful way, which seems more than most people do around here. Spam and flame other people. How helpful.
fragbait
Smash Master
Thank you.
And I said in my thread that I did experiment with the shine, and it seems legitimately useful against a shield gimp.
I asked for advice against the gimp, btw. Not everyone is so amazing at Falco that they never get into the position that they don't have that opportunity.
So, instead of "Don't let it happen" how about some actual advice?
ftl
Smash Journeyman
I was going to suggest looking in the matchup thread, but then I searched for it and the advice is ancient, it's there from like may... dunno if it still applies. If you want to check it out it's at http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4497957&highlight=olimar+week#post4497957 , it seems pretty accurate still but there've been changes to the metagame since then.
Camp with shl/shdl if you can, but don't be too surprised if Olimar manages to find a way to outcamp you, especially on the less flat stages, pikmin throw is pretty good and can deal more damage than lazors. So don't be afraid to get up in his face with dairs and jabs if you have to. Beware his grab range.
Check out some of the videos in the video thread. I lost to an Oli two weeks back, then I looked at the videos and tried to copy them and played less campy based on the advice from that and then beat him this past week. So maybe that'll help you too.
[edit] Good lord, another thread which turns into an IFHS discussion? Srsly... :-/ [/edit]
J4pu
Smash Champion
woah, woah, let me get this straight, you are in a position where you have to use firebird (below the stage without a second jump left) and you want to use the reflector (extremely laggy) to attack somebody coming out with a shield?
bahahahahahahaha
have fun falling to your death while you wait for the reflector to return.
/simple logic
Don't let it happen is the best advice anybody can give you for Falco, save your second jump, don't get caught below the stage without it.
fragbait
Smash Master
Are you even really reading the scenario? I said that, if you know the gimp is coming, through actual testing, the Shine is plausible. I asked what to do if it is inevitable.
Also, it's kinda annoying that people have already written off what could be one of Falco's most useful attacks as useless just because a few elitist people say it is. I'm not afraid to try new things, because MKs and Snakes (more MK than Snake) are. I presented a scenario, and it seems to be ignored.
But, whatever.
But, yeah, I will try to save 2jump more, thanks for that tidbit.
Also, it's kinda annoying that people have already written off what could be one of Falco's most useful attacks as useless just because a few elitist people say it is. I'm not afraid to try new things, because MKs and Snakes (more MK than Snake) are. I presented a scenario, and it seems to be ignored.
But, whatever.
But, yeah, I will try to save 2jump more, thanks for that tidbit.
J4pu
Smash Champion
ok so what you are trying to convey is that Pit jumps out and holds shield in front of your trajectory and kind of just falls with you until you are below stage height.
and what you are proposing is using the reflector while he is holding out the shield and falling with you, so that once you get below stage height he won't have it out?
Is that correct?
If so, why not stop falling and start using firebird before you get below stage height, if he is falling with the shield, then he will fall past you while the firebird warms up and you can go straight for the stage.
If you use reflector while he falling with you, by the time it comes back to you, what stops Pit from putting the shield back out again? Pit has plenty of jumps.
If you are saying that he doesn't hold it out and fall with you, he just jumps out and waits for you to use firebird then pulls out the shield, then just use phantasm before you get below stage height, he won't be able to pull it out fast enough to stop you.
The biggest problem I see against Pit is his arrows eating your second jump, for that you just gotta try to be tricky with your timing/placement of your second jump.
Try thinking of all scenarios and all your opponent's options before coming up with a plan, shine has too little knockback and hitstun combined with too much afterlag to be useful in most situations.
and what you are proposing is using the reflector while he is holding out the shield and falling with you, so that once you get below stage height he won't have it out?
Is that correct?
If so, why not stop falling and start using firebird before you get below stage height, if he is falling with the shield, then he will fall past you while the firebird warms up and you can go straight for the stage.
If you use reflector while he falling with you, by the time it comes back to you, what stops Pit from putting the shield back out again? Pit has plenty of jumps.
If you are saying that he doesn't hold it out and fall with you, he just jumps out and waits for you to use firebird then pulls out the shield, then just use phantasm before you get below stage height, he won't be able to pull it out fast enough to stop you.
The biggest problem I see against Pit is his arrows eating your second jump, for that you just gotta try to be tricky with your timing/placement of your second jump.
Try thinking of all scenarios and all your opponent's options before coming up with a plan, shine has too little knockback and hitstun combined with too much afterlag to be useful in most situations.
rinoH
Smash Lord
can you footstool falco's side b to make him go lower?
J4pu
Smash Champion
if any attack is in use for any character, specials included, the character can not be pushed down by a footstool.
(sometimes) you can still footstool them and get an extra jump for yourself, but it won't push them down.
(sometimes) you can still footstool them and get an extra jump for yourself, but it won't push them down.
GwJ
Smash Hero
For those who don't get what he's saying, here's an example. After Sonic uses his Spring and is falling, he can get an extra jump off of ROB even when he's using his Up B, but ROB doesn't get pushed down.
Hawks go Caw
Smash Ace
Japu, I'm pretty sure he's getting gimped when using phantasm. At least I hope so. If he's talking about getting gimped from the shield mirror or whatever from under the stage then it's pretty hopeless as it is. How does that even happen?
Anyway, Doadrin, you came for advice. We gave it. If its not what you wanted to hear then whatever.
Anyway, Doadrin, you came for advice. We gave it. If its not what you wanted to hear then whatever.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
- Messages
- 991
Shine isnt even Fox's best option...we hope they continue to think that though :x
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
if i happen to grab an olimar at 0%, what are the best options to carry out?
ftl
Smash Journeyman
CG. You can CG olimar to, I think, 30% or so? Something like that. It's not something worth going for usually, since Oli isn't easy to grab for Falco and since you can only CG him a couple of times, but if you happen to grab him at 0%, just do CG->dair or CG->gatling.
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
i heard that you could chain grab a couple of times then dair, ff, and regrab to get more percent. is this automatic?
J4pu
Smash Champion
no, but it is hard to escape
an even better option is CG> Dair> FF behind them> turn around Jab> regrab.
an even better option is CG> Dair> FF behind them> turn around Jab> regrab.