Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Palpi]

Top level of metagame snake wins over top level ike 60 matches of 100? More than that imo.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I don't think match up ratios are meant to be interpreted as win/lose ratios.

 

[stealthwarrior17]

I don't think match up ratios are meant to be interpreted as win/lose ratios.

I agree, they just represent the matchup in tactics and specs between the characters, such as range of attacks versus the other character. I doubt anyone would play 100 matches and even if they did, I can play right now and win when the odds were against me. There are also factors such as stage choice.

 

[YagamiLight]

I like to look at match-up ratios as effort requirements. The higher up the ratio is in your favor the less effort you need to put in to win the match. If the ratio is against you that means the opponent needs to put much less effort into the match than you do. You need to be thinking and outsmarting all the time in a 35-65 match, such as Olimar or King Dedede.

It makes sense if you think about it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ya Palpi, MUs in Brawl don't work that way. Never have, never will.

 

[Palpi]

Then what do they mean? Why use numbers? I never thought they didn't mean that. I remember Kage was talking about something in the Genesis thread or apex thread and he said that it isn't 60-40 games, its 60-40 sets. (It was about MK mu's, so probably in the MK ban thread.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's like how Light said: a variance in effort needed to win.

Brawl has too many factors and variables to be able to accurately say "So and so should win 40 sets out of 100". You factor in differences in stage selections through out areas, personal stage preference, variables within those stages, differences in playing styles, all on top of the actual character data...it's not happening.

 

[Palpi]

I still think it should be 65-35 (atleast) regardless of how I interpret it though. D3 beats snake 60-40, ( even though atomsk VERY rarely beats ally, but I suppose ally is on another level ) and d3 is obviously better at the match up due to his gimping powers and chain grab.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nope.

4-6. I think the only person on the Snake board that said the MU was worse for Ike was lol Gheb, who said either 3-7 or 2-8. I can't remember which one.

 

[Palpi]

Fine, maybe in theorycraft land it is 6-4. But that is way too generous of a number.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, in reality it's 4-6. I can say that for sure from the few times I've played this MU.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I like to look at match-up ratios as effort requirements. The higher up the ratio is in your favor the less effort you need to put in to win the match. If the ratio is against you that means the opponent needs to put much less effort into the match than you do. You need to be thinking and outsmarting all the time in a 35-65 match, such as Olimar or King Dedede.

It makes sense if you think about it.

Exactly except its 80-20 and 70-30

if you look at match up ratios this way it makes perfect sense that olimar is ike's worst match in both theory and practice simply because it takes a lot less effort to win even if they **** ike less than mk does.

I do agree that 60-40 is to low though snake out does us in everything.

 

[Melomaniacal]

few times I've played this MU.

Credibility minus one.

 

[Nysyarc]

Match-up ratios are silly because everyone disagrees on the exact numbers and they're not really even that important. Just because a match-up is 90-10 against you doesn't mean you can't win and just because it's 10-90 in your favor doesn't mean it'll be a cakewalk. They're raw interpretations of the characters' tools, and there are so many other factors in a real match that the ratios are almost completely trivial.

In other news, I've disappeared for a few days. I know you guys missed me. Time to go critique a video now.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Olimar is not 2-8 A_B.

Anything worse then 3-7 is flat out unwinnable in tournaments.

Ikes have beaten Olimars in tournaments. And like I've mentioned earlier, the Olimar board is starting to think it's like, 4-6.

 

[Palpi]

niddo, personal match up experience means little to nothing coming from you, since you are no where near the top level of play. It is not 60-40. Ike's have not beaten snakes at the same level of their play in tournament. San is a top ike and he beats jesiah who is not a top snake. Kirk is a top ike and he beats akashi who is not a top snake(akashi may go even with kirk).

Most wins with ike over snake have been against snakes worse than them in skill, therefore the match up shouldn't be influenced by that.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Olimar is not 2-8 A_B.

Anything worse then 3-7 is flat out unwinnable in tournaments.

Ikes have beaten Olimars in tournaments. And like I've mentioned earlier, the Olimar board is starting to think it's like, 4-6.

well then they are ******** and have you even played an olimar? I don't recall any being in SA.

 

[Xyro77]

Since im am the best ike this century, i say that olimar vs ike HAS to be 70-30. I truly dont see a way a top level ike crushing a top level olimar. its not gonna happen.




Xyro: the ike slayer

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't have experience winning. I have experience being slaughtered, and I am good at analyzing things. Being slaughtered means I can see exactly what they can use to beat Ike's X move. I honestly think people who win all of the time are the worse people to listen to for MU discussions. Sometimes, they can frankly "break" MUs as it is, which in turn messes up how they see the MU. Me being unable to win basically any MU means I can analyze things with a bit less bias. Instead of "I can never beat this guy, it must be X ratio", I can go "Well, this works against that, and that worked when he did this...it's probably around Y ratio". Besides, I do have Morningstar in my city, and he's like the second best Snake in Texas. I'm not clueless to what Snake can do. It's 4-6. Fact. End of discussion.

Ike has a lot of tools to deal with Snake. Seeing as we have rediscussed the MU, and thats what it came out to: it is what it is Palpi. Besides, you dropped Ike because you couldn't handle it, you ain't exactly the best source for MU opinions either.

IcyLight believes Ike vs Olimar is 4-6, and he's in the PRs for his area. He's not exactly a bad Olimar. From what I understand, while Olimar can keep Ike away well, once Ike lands that jab and gets Olimar into the air, things go south quickly. 35-65 is probably correct, but it gives you an idea of how some see the MU.

 

[Palpi]

That is fine if that is what it came out to. But what it came to is wrong.

Nevermind, I suppose once I come to the realization that your opinion is fact, I will see the light of the true match up of 6-4.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No, what it came out to is correct. If it wasn't correct, it would have been pointed out, or proven in the topics.

If it wasn't proven to be worse: it ain't worse.

 

[Nysyarc]

You guys realize that you could be debating this forever and neither one of you would likely ever give ground? Lol, everyone has their own opinion on MU ratios, which is one of the reasons why I hate them, because everyone thinks their ratio is the correct one. Well if yours is correct why do a lot of other people say different? Even if the majority are on one side... why is there another side at all?

It's all so pointless. I work out match-ups between players rather than characters.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Niddo, I love your style of debate.

"Here's a shafty reason why I am right. Now that I've explained my reasoning, you are wrong. Fact. Discussion over. I win."

toopro

 

[Palpi]

Isn't that the best tactic for debatE?!?!!?

melo gets +1 points for using shafty in a sentence.

*gazes into the stars* a feat i couldn't pull off for 17 years

 

[Mr. Doom]

LOL, I see high school greenhorn debaters try that stunt every single time I judge rounds. I find it very amusing.

 

[Melomaniacal]

*gazes into the stars* a feat i couldn't pull off for 17 years

I lol'd. A lot.

 

[Somebody Else]

Shafty is a great word to use in a sentence. Have a Point (with a capital P).

Anyways, for those who don't look at the videos thread, anyone here who can record my Ike video for critique?

http://www.mediafire.com/?enzm5zj5ei5

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Niddo, I love your style of debate.

"Here's a shafty reason why I am right. Now that I've explained my reasoning, you are wrong. Fact. Discussion over. I win."

toopro

Works for most SBR members, I don't see why it can't work here.

And seriously: If you thought it was worse, you should have brought it up during the rediscussion. This isn't a MU topic. And frankly, if the majority of both boards, with all sorts of various levels in skill, believe that number is correct: it's probably correct for the current metagame.

 

[Palpi]

I read Kimchi's post on the thing. For one, you thought dacit would be useful? lulz

All of those videos in the thread (war room, snake write up) bare no significance.

*open of science text book* Snake beats ike 65-35.

There you have it gentlemen.

 

[Somebody Else]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBG7ocA2rwY

Check the pivot grab techchasing in the first 15 seconds; O_O How do you do that?!

 

[Palpi]

....Your opponent has to be predictable, and you have to read him and pivot...then grab...

 

[Somebody Else]

Err, that was kinda rhetorical. I guess they must play together a bit, I wouldn't be able to predict something like that lol.

Note to self, use more pivot grabs

 

[Mr. Doom]

I don't know if you guys play Duelist Pro.

Spoiler

alone.

If you do, I have something for you to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC0cu4CNHEg

 

[Somebody Else]

493%, not bad

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You misread my DACIT comment. It's to eliminate one of Snake's options, not to be actually used. Snake takes a risk in leaving an uncooked grenade on the ground for what ever reason. It's one more thing he can't use against Ike.

Videos never mean much in MUs, why did you bring them up?

Again: you had your chance. Until we rediscuss the MU: Ike vs Snake is officially 4:6, from the opinion of both boards.

 

[Palpi]

I am not trying to get it changed, but just because it says that in a thread, doesn't mean it is correct.

edit; w/e - it doesn't even matter considering I don't use snake or ike lawl.

If I feel I am right, than that is good enough for me

I will leave this discussion with 1 comment.

The MU is getting skewed because great ikes are playing good snakes and sharing their knowledge as if they are on the same skill level or near the same level in skill, which is false and it is giving people a false perception of the match up.

DONE!!!!! (WIPE ME, MELO!!)

 

[theeboredone]

Snake match up is 100-0 in his favor. Snake just f-tilts all day and wins.

 

[Palpi]

Snake match up is 100-0 in his favor. Snake just f-tilts all day and wins.

qft.

anyway....... .. . . . ... . . ...

how bout them cowboys.

 

[theeboredone]

qft.

anyway....... .. . . . ... . . ...

how bout them cowboys.

I watched that game, and man, I honestly thought Cowboys were gonna choke like usual in the 4th. It took a big cushion, an angry Romo, and Demarcus playing to turn the tides at the end.

 

[Palpi]

to bad the eagles are winning the division =/