Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[YagamiLight]

Yaga, im quite hurt. We worked REALLY hard on this list and its by far the MOST accurate. Please explain what YOU(and only yaga) think should have been different. I really hate seeing people(the GOOD players) disagree with most of the list. Please include the word "xyro" in your post so i can name search and respond to you. I really do want to understand why YOU dislike this list. Please note that this post does not carry any malice.

Sure thing, xyro.

I have absolutely no malice towards you so when I say I don't think the list has logic please do not take it as a personal insult. With that said, several characters made jumps or drops (or stayed the same) that I consider somewhat illogical.

I'm pretty fond of the way S/A and to some extent B tier turned out. I think the BBR did a solid job on high and top tier. It's when you get down to mid and especially low that I think it could have used a bit more logic and insight.

I'll only comment on the stuff I feel particularly strongly about and would like to hear the reasoning behind.

1. 
   How did Pit move to the top of mid tier, past all these other characters, when very little has changed (and, to the best of my knowledge, he was repped less).
   
   Under the BBR ruleset, Donkey Kong is infinited by King Dedede. I don't think a character that can literally never win a speicific match should be that high. I'd like to hear the reasoning for it.
   
   I am not sure (at all) why Pokemon Trainer went up +3 since Reflex has not been to many tourneys lately (apparently) and there have been virtually no changes in his metagame.
   
   Ness is a character that I think is pretty good (I think I've seen posts by you saying the same thing) so I don't think that him being in mid tier is "wrong" or anything. I do question why he is NOW mid tier as apposed to the last few lists. It really seems to me like some last minute tourney placings are the main reason for the jump up.
   
   I'm not sure how Bowser managed to retain his mid tier spot when his placings have been much poorer than even some low tiers, but whatever.
   
   Lucas has had virtually no players repping him, he was 3rd worst in rankings. He has several horrible match-ups and I reaaaally cannot think of any reason for him to go up +1.
   
   Ike I am hesitant to comment on at the risk of seeming biased but I figure if Ike users don't say anything, nobody will. Quite frankly, I think you grouped him with the wrong crowd. Ike has had consistent actual tourney representation as well as proved that he can more than handle low tier tournaments. I would say that he is much more along the likes of Ness / Bowser than stuff like Captain Falcon / Jigglypuff.
   
   On that note, how did Captain Falcon go that high? It was Ally, wasn't it? I'm sure you can acknowledge that Captain Falcon isn't better than Samus.
   
   Zelda was doing well enough in tourney rankings but I think that Zelda / Sheik should be made into one character for the sake of the tier list, so I won't comment too much here.
   
   Link has been getting very solid placings lately and I think almost everyone was expecting him to move up. So what happened here?

That's all, really. Once again, I do not think poorly of you (in fact I think you are quite legit!) or the BBR but this tier list is just confusing.

 

[Kimchi]

San and Dr. Grandpa just lost to Pyronic_Star and Boss.

 

[numba1cheese]

I'm sure these tier placings have SOME logic in them. We might be missing something, or are failing to see a point of view. In any case, I always knew Ness had potential, and it's about time he escaped the LT section. I've come across one too many Ness mains that absolutely dominate to let me think they are low tier.

Can't say much about anyone else.

 

[Palpi]

San and Dr. Grandpa just lost to Pyronic_Star and Boss.

PS and boss is a pretty **** good team. nt san =]

 

[bladeboys]

Happy birthday Niddo !

still lurking

 

[Chuee]

Lucas has had virtually no players repping him, he was 3rd worst in rankings. He has several horrible match-ups and I reaaaally cannot think of any reason for him to go up +1.

He actually has a few good players repping him.
PF and Tyr do pretty good.
PF beat Ally's falcon and Boss' mario in a low tier event.
Tyr beat Lain once.
He has a few bad matchups but nothing that bad.
Snake is 70-30, DK is 65-35 or 70-30, and Marth is 60-40 or 65-35.
Compared to Ike's, I'd say Lucas has better.

 

[Palpi]

I think Lucas is under repp'ed as well and from playing chuee and pinkfresh 1000 times, i think he is as good or better than ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If he's repped as much as you seem to think Chuee, why does he have the third worse results? If all of your reps basically never place in a tournament...that screams "this character is freaking terrible". Either that, or his results are never recorded.

And based on that short list you posted, Ike and Lucas have about the same number of 3-7/35-65 disadvantages. MK and Falco are 3-7, D3 is 3-7/35-65, Olimar is apparently 35-65.

 

[YagamiLight]

Falco isn't 3-7, Niddo. This ain't 2008. Powershield and Bthrow to Dash attack more.

Anyway even if Lucas did have better match-ups (I don't think so, but whatever) being 3rd worst in rankings means a lot, especially if the tier list places you as the best character in low tier. If Lucas was really that good, I'd expect slightly better results from him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Falco isn't 3-7, Niddo. This ain't 2008. Powershield and Bthrow to Dash attack more.

;_;

Well it isn't 4-6. >_> And I still think Falco is more difficult than D3 who is kinda borderline in that range of 3-7/35-65.

 

[YagamiLight]

Meta Knight
Olimar / King Dedede
Falco

That's probably how the list goes. From when I asked a while back everyone said MK was Ike's worst match-up at 70-30 and I'm inclined to agree.

The Olimar boards list Ike at 6-4 but here I'm deferring to san's opinion that it's 65-35. King Dedede boards list it as 65-35 and from my experience playing them, this is also true.

Falco has just gotten a lot less threatening over time. Powershielding, teching the chainspike, getting him easily off the stage (Bthrow to Dash Attack, grab release to Fair) have all served to heavily improve the match-up. The Falco boards list it as 6-4, I've seen good Falco users cite it as 6-4 and even if it wasn't 6-4 I see virtually nobody placing it as 7-3. Take that for what you will.

 

[Palpi]

Falco can jab ike before the DA in bthrow->da right kimchi?

 

[YagamiLight]

Falco can jab ike before the DA in bthrow->da right kimchi?

If Falco's Jab is F2 (I think it is) then Falco and Ike will hit each other if Ike Bthrows at 0%, actually.

Fun fact.

 

[numba1cheese]

Xyro. I was wondering what the SBR took into consideration for this tier list. Maybe you can give a percentage list perhaps? Like 30% tourny results, 40% match ups, 30% judgment? Something like that.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Viridian City Results? I'd like to know how San did.

 

[Teh Brettster]

San got a decent seed out of pools. 2nd or 3rd, maybe. I know that much, because Kimchi has kept up with it and told me.
Don't know anything else.
Beat M2K in Ike dittos, but I don't know what type of match it was.

 

[theeboredone]

Most of us here could beat M2K in Ike Dittos. Overrated.

My college had a money tournament today. I went hoping I could win despite my bad thumb and all. Didn't expect Hylian to be there. Got 2nd, made a 18 dollar profit. Gonna put that into WHOBO. Hylian won a 38 dollar profit...dammit.

 

[Teh Brettster]

I'm hoping to win money at next Phase's LT teams and put it towards WHOBO.
Then again, my (unconfirmed) carpool for WHOBO is planning on just sleeping overnight in the car and packing crap tons of deodorant and the likes.

 

[Kimchi]

Proud of san atm. He beat Boss.

 

[YagamiLight]

Proud of san atm. He beat Boss.

Yeah, 2-0 apparently. Didn't see the match but that's good stuff.

san is amazing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

san beat boss 2-0 i know that...

EDIT nninjad

 

[Kimchi]

San got 2-0ed by Ally.

 

[theeboredone]

San got 2-0ed by Ally.

Wow, that downright sucks. How did he fare? Is he in losers now? This tourny is still going on? o_o.

 

[benaji261!]

While that tourney was going on I drove to Albany, GA and got 4th/16 going all Ike. Lost to Kismet and Reflex, the top 2 in GA. Kismet uses Falco and Reflex uses PT. They're freakin good. :/

GO SAN REP DAT IKE

EDIT: Lost to Kismet, never played Reflex in brackets. I took one game off his(Kismet) Falco in the tourney match. Pretty intense for me personally. O_o

 

[-RedX-]

I really expected the tourney to finish 3 hours ago lol
Dayum, good shiz Ben.

 

[benaji261!]

Thanks Red. This was my first OOS tourney... well second... that I've been to. I came to this one by myself and drove 4-5 hours to it. I had fun and Kismet was a real cool guy who talked with me about matchups and how he was when he went to Genesis and played Ally.

 

[theeboredone]

Well I know Reflex is a monster, and I've heard good things from Kismet. Good **** Ben. Nice going. Hope someone housed you for driving all the way down.

 

[benaji261!]

Yes Reflex is a monster. I only played one game before everything closed and he just up and 3 stocked me with Squirtle. -_- That's the only game we could play. And yea I'm in my friend's dorm at his college. Bout to hit the sack and head for home in the morning. Thanks also Bored. I HOPE I can go to a tourney there in Texas sometime before I leave. I'm trying to do some crazy **** before I leave tbqh. Driving here by myself, imo, was one of my first 'crazy' exploits. XD
Yahoo maps directions FTW

btw results thread if anyone cared to see:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267048

 

[Teh Brettster]

I've always wanted to go to that region for a tourney, Benjai. Well, I've always wanted to go to a tourney where either of the guys that beat you is NOT there, lol. Good job repping Ike.

I'm eager to hear more about San, too.

But I must sleep. Gotta get up early to play a piece for the dedication of a new piano at a church.

 

[theeboredone]

If this tourny is still going on, a lot of blame has to go on the hosts for starting so late or not managing the tournament properly.

 

[benaji261!]

I've always wanted to go to that region for a tourney, Benjai. Well, I've always wanted to go to a tourney where either of the guys that beat you is NOT there, lol. Good job repping Ike.

I'm eager to hear more about San, too.

But I must sleep. Gotta get up early to play a piece for the dedication of a new piano at a church.

If I'd known about them in the first place I might would've wished the same. XD But no I'm glad they came. I got to see and talk to some pro players that WEREN'T d-bags, like one or two I found in Gainesville(near Tallahassee), who care about themselves and not talk to you about MUs or care about the game community. Thanks Brett and GL on your piece in the morning.

 

[Palpi]

The venue is pretty small. There is maybe 15 set ups for 110+ people. I know VC5 ended at 9, but it was only 85 people and they didnt do pools. Pools probably slowed it down.

 

[theeboredone]

The venue is pretty small. There is maybe 15 set ups for 110+ people. I know VC5 ended at 9, but it was only 85 people and they didnt do pools. Pools probably slowed it down.

Wow, what you said is just spelling disaster. It's stupid for tournies to run this late, because fatigue becomes crucial in the latter stages of the tourny. Some are better at handling it, while others not so much. I know, like any competitive event, fatigue will always be a factor, but in this case, a lot can be reduced by careful planning from the hosts.

Ben, I personally want to play Reflex. The 2 PT mains in TX (Zigsta and Magik) are probably scrubs compared to Reflex. It would be a nice challenge.

 

[PhantomX]

Shouldn't Ike do really well against Luigi due to how strong his moves are/how much he outranges him and Luigi's ****ty air speed?

 

[Teh Brettster]

^Yes.
Zone/space/annoy.

Spoiler

I swear to God I'm actually going to sleep this time.

 

[benaji261!]

If I played him more I could definitely tell you more about how he is all around, but from what I saw his best is Squirtle. His Charizard and Ivysaur are great yea, but I'm sure Squritle is his pick of the crop. He does this utilt thing with Squirtle where he is juggling and at the same time MOVING with the utilt. He doesn't stay in one spot. It's really weird and I kept getting juggled and uair'd like crazy. But like I said I didn't play his other chars so I couldn't tell you anymore about them. I don't know about those PT mains you mentioned though Bored.

 

[-RedX-]

Ike v Luigi is listed as 6:4 Ike, I kinda agree since Ike can hit Luigi's shield and just watch the sliding.

 

[theeboredone]

Px, that was pretty random of you to say. Did something come up or what?

 

[Palpi]

That is why I told Kimchi boss should've went Mario. Luigi has trouble punishing him.

 

[theeboredone]

Oh ok...Boss mains Luigi. Well yea...it's tough for Luigi to counter Ike.