Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Mr. Doom]

^ Mr. Doom, get it right.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Your name is doom, and you'll like it!

 

[Mr. Doom]

^^ Mr. Doom, get it right.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Your name is doom, and you'll like it!

Spoiler

c-c-c-combo breaker?

 

[numba1cheese]

Your name is doom, and you'll like it!

Spoiler

c-c-c-combo breaker?

Last time I checked, MR. Doom is a better Ike player than you. Show some respect.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Last time I checked, MR. Doom is a better Ike player than you. Show some respect.

NEVAH!

I've been on the board longer. >_> <_<

 

[YagamiLight]

Post Count + Join Date > Skill

Being a good player is overrated.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Post Count + Join Date > Skill

Being a good player is overrated.

He has the right idea.

 

[Mr. Doom]

lol you guys are ridiculous at times.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

lol you guys are ridiculous at times.

:D

It's fun to be ridiculous!

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, we're crazy. On another crazy side note consider the following image, Japan's matchup chart:

Specifically, look at #21, that's Ike. Japan has a few opinions which I share but a few where I really have to question what we are doing wrong or what they are doing right and vice versa.

For example, Ike loses to Falco 4.5-5.5 according to that list. That's a bit radical considering the "best" number from a credible player that I've heard is 4-6.

Ike then has an advantage of 5.5 on #13. Guess who that is? Olimar.

tl;dr I agree with a lot of it but some of it is pretty hazy. At least they don't have Samus beating Ike by whatever silly numbers are being thrown around SWF

Discuss?????

 

[Mr. Doom]

I'm assuming it's 4-6 MK's favor, right?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Indeed.

The biggest advantage I see on that chart is 7. O_o

 

[gsninja]

#4 has a 7.5-2.5 advantage. Oh snap!

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm assuming it's 4-6 MK's favor, right?

Yeah.

Indeed.

The biggest advantage I see on that chart is 7. O_o

I see Dedede v DK as 7.5.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I missed one.

Sue me.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

i'll sue you for missing FS.

I got 9th out of how ever many there where, almost got to play for 7th but fogo made a come back and then got a lucky kill on me over the top with the last hit of DDD's uair at 75%. I'll get him at the el paso tournament coming up though.

I only used ike once in tournament against razer, probably could have won my first match with him if i had stopped to think for a second and spiked his recovery oh well.

I did **** brett in ike dittos though

 

[-RedX-]

That Japan tier list looks...wow.
I wish Ike was actually even with almost the whole cast ;[

 

[YagamiLight]

That Japan tier list looks...wow.
I wish Ike was actually even with almost the whole cast ;[

You have to wonder what they're doing right (in the case of Olimar and Falco) or wrong (why is Ike almost even with Ganondorf and Captain Falcon?), don't you?

I agree on a lot of points, as I said, but some of them seem rather questionable, don't they?

 

[gsninja]

Oh, for sure. Ike being, on average, even with the entire friggin' cast would be a blessing, but as far as the current metagame goes, it surely doesn't look that way with us. I wanna know what the Japanese are doing and thinking lmao.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Arturo, going even isn't ******, lol.

 

[Mr. Doom]

One word: Jab.

 

[benaji261!]

If Japan sees Ike that way, then what are we doing wrong? -_-

Also how's Samus fair against Ike, I know her having projectiles would make her at the advantage, but I'm curious about it.

 

[numba1cheese]

If Japan sees Ike that way, then what are we doing wrong? -_-

Also how's Samus fair against Ike, I know her having projectiles would make her at the advantage, but I'm curious about it.

Samus can space like mad with Z-air while camping with projectiles. Samus can also gimp you hard I believe. With her tethering options, don't even bother trying to aether spike, spike, or grab edge. Also, I figure since she can tether, she can stall on the edge to some degree.

And as far as your japan statement...I believe they are more aggro and fancy in terms of playstyle while Americans are more defensive and "reading". Only way to determine who's right is to have a Japan meets US tournament sadly. Though I am confident US would win.

 

[Slaps]

Samus can space like mad with Z-air while camping with projectiles. Samus can also gimp you hard I believe. With her tethering options, don't even bother trying to aether spike, spike, or grab edge. Also, I figure since she can tether, she can stall on the edge to some degree.

And as far as your japan statement...I believe they are more aggro and fancy in terms of playstyle while Americans are more defensive and "reading". Only way to determine who's right is to have a Japan meets US tournament sadly. Though I am confident US would win.

Well I'm sure they probably determine the tier list based off the players they have rather than the facts about the characters. So if they have a really good Ike and that Ike ***** other characters they probably would consider him a higher tier thus causing Ike to end up on mid tier instead of low.

As for Samus, if you can accurately predict when a samus will tether grab you can spike him just by doing a walkoff Dair since the tether swings him down below the ledge and you can spike him mid swing with the dair, even if you fail and he tries to tether edge guard you, you can still land on the stage with aether. Unless you waited too long to do the Dair and cant land on the stage. If you want to see walkoff Dair on Samus' Tether than i will try and put a match i played in which i did it. If you want an example that is.

 

[YagamiLight]

Samus seriously can't kill Ike, though. And it's not like her projectile game is good enough to keep Ike away for any serious amount of time. (hint: press L/R before an attack hits you to powershield). Her gimp game on Ike isn't strong either. Her main advantage (living forever) is pretty much negated by the fact that this is Ike.

Anyway I don't know I'd rather have bored / brett comment on it since they play with Xyro a lot.

As for the tier list it's mainly based off of results in matches and the opinions of the best players, IIRC.

 

[gsninja]

And as far as your japan statement...I believe they are more aggro and fancy in terms of playstyle while Americans are more defensive and "reading". Only way to determine who's right is to have a Japan meets US tournament sadly. Though I am confident US would win.

The US would most likely win, indeed. The way the US players Brawl is that they'll do anything to win (Within the rules of course), which involves tactics that slow matches down such as camping, planking, any form of excessive defense, etc. The Japanese, on the other hand, play more to entertain the crowd than the Americans do, hence the flashy and much more aggressive playstyles. This is most likely why the top players in the US would almost definitely have some sort of advantage against Japan's top players. Examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEm-rQHRtvQ&fmt=18 - '08 match between Japanese players Zentore and Nyosuke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4N_F2QaPU&fmt=18 - '09 match between American players Razer and DMG

Now, I don't mean to show these vids as a display of the difference of skill, but of the display of the different styles and the paces of the matches. The Japanese match was much more aggressive and a display for the audience, while Razer and DMG, two of the most well-known American players in the Brawl community, played a lot more defensively and, in the case of DMG, air camped the **** out of the match.

So yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make lol. I think Japanese players are just a lot more fun to watch in Brawl because their matches are so much more fast-paced.

 

[Xyro77]

Samus seriously can't kill Ike, though. And it's not like her projectile game is good enough to keep Ike away for any serious amount of time. (hint: press L/R before an attack hits you to powershield). Her gimp game on Ike isn't strong either. Her main advantage (living forever) is pretty much negated by the fact that this is Ike.

Anyway I don't know I'd rather have bored / brett comment on it since they play with Xyro a lot.

As for the tier list it's mainly based off of results in matches and the opinions of the best players, IIRC.

Im here to tell you that samus beats Ike. Im willing to bet that bret/bored/inui/lee/doom and anyother ike main ive molested would say the same thing.


1. IKE cannot stop samus ledge play. Inui and Bored both tried it and got 2 and 3 stocked. Samus has SO MANY options from the ledge and ikes is reduced to d tilt or running off and trying to spike/bair samus(both of which put ike in a spike-able or re-tether gimp position).

2. If samus just wanted to be a homo, she could pick BF or sv or any given stage with platforms and run the clock. She is MUCH quicker than ike on the ground and air. She even has stall techs(bombs) to help prevent ikes classic "bait the air airdodge and usmash."

3. Now we get to the MAIN dish. Projectiles. Unlike falco/snake, samus uses projectiles to not only damage the foe but set up for traps and other combos. Zair to grab, zair to charge shot(26% i might add), lock-on missle to grab, super missle to uair to up+b.....the list goes on. Most of these are frame traps and you would literally have to be ON a platform or way above samus in the air to avoid.

4. Other than ikes nair to jab. Samus can shield grab(if you spaced your attack) Or up+b out of shield(if you spacing was poor).

5. Gimping. Other than meta and maybe rob, samus is one of the best gimpers of all time. ANY and ALL projectiles can stop ikes UP+B or his OVER B. We can even run WAY off the stage and zair u then come back to the stage safe.





Ike loses vs samus 65-35 or maybe even more imo. Yagami(or any other ike i have not molested yet), If you plan on going to a massive event in april, i challenge you to go to WORLD HOBO 2( http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257495 ) in Houston tx. 140+ is expected with players like ally/m2k/dojo already confirmed. Bored and pretty much all the tx Ikes will be there as well as Inui and Lee Martin. This will prob be the largest meetings of ike in the usa and i want all of you to realize samus DECIMATES ike.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The US would most likely win, indeed. The way the US players Brawl is that they'll do anything to win (Within the rules of course), which involves tactics that slow matches down such as camping, planking, any form of excessive defense, etc. The Japanese, on the other hand, play more to entertain the crowd than the Americans do, hence the flashy and much more aggressive playstyles. This is most likely why the top players in the US would almost definitely have some sort of advantage against Japan's top players. Examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEm-rQHRtvQ&fmt=18 - '08 match between Japanese players Zentore and Nyosuke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4N_F2QaPU&fmt=18 - '09 match between American players Razer and DMG

Now, I don't mean to show these vids as a display of the difference of skill, but of the display of the different styles and the paces of the matches. The Japanese match was much more aggressive and a display for the audience, while Razer and DMG, two of the most well-known American players in the Brawl community, played a lot more defensively and, in the case of DMG, air camped the **** out of the match.

So yeah, that's the point I'm trying to make lol. I think Japanese players are just a lot more fun to watch in Brawl because their matches are so much more fast-paced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOkFLXwPzM0

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You can't shield grab a properly spaced Fair. Too much start up on your grab when you add in the shield drop frames. 17+8 or w/e shield drop is + a couple frames for travel time of the grab takes longer then 22 frames. Nor can you shield grab Uair according to the Ike frame data topic. So we can safely use Jab, Grab, Fair, Nair, and Uair and never worry about being shield grabbed. That's more then enough, and we haven't even added in the times we can hit your shield and push you off of a platform so you can't shield grab us. Or hit you from below a platform, so you can't shield grab then.

If you're bombing to avoid Usmash baiting, we're being predictable. If the Ike Uairs instead, you'd get smacked in the face. That's like saying if you miss a grab because we saw it coming, we can smack you with Utilt.

Samus is not a harder match-up then someone like Lucario. And Inui is a terrible Ike to base any of your opinion of the MU on. His Ike is very basic and doesn't think outside of a very small box. 6-4 is the advantage Samus has. Nothing more.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Xyro, I think it's about 6-4, (though I really hate assigning numbers to match-ups).

Don't count Inui in your list of "Ikes" you've "decimated." Not sure how much he's improved, but he was CLUELESS last I saw you play him. I mean, he fell for your tether edge-stealing about 5 stocks in a row without changing anything.

Anyway. Bored and I have both played you, we've both lost to you, and we've both performed better against you as well. He has played you more than I have, though, but with my experience, I'd say it's about a 6-4. Does Samus's shield grab come out fast enough to punish a spaced Nair? Something's telling me it isn't. Projectiles are annoying, but if we learn to deal with them, we can minimize how much they hurt us in a game. Your gimping is pretty high class, though, I'll admit. If we avoid your traps, we avoid the gimp, but say we get hit by Zair out there... survival chances just got slim. UpB OoS is undoubtedly there, but it's not really safe until (insert% here). I distinctly remember you using your upB on the ground against me and it led to an early lost stock.

When all things are added up, it's pretty easy to say it's in Samus's favor. But. I don't think it goes past 6-4. Definitely not past 65-35.

 

[Mr. Doom]

Xyro, the last time I played you was during OH SNAP. That was...six months ago. Granted, you did beat me, but molested is going a little too far. Perhaps I should play you again, sometime soon. By the way, it's Mr. Doom, and get it right.

 

[gsninja]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOkFLXwPzM0

Well, ok, so not ALL Japanese matches are fast-paced and aggressive haha. :x

 

[Xyro77]

You can't shield grab a properly spaced Fair. Too much start up on your grab when you add in the shield drop frames. 17+8 or w/e shield drop is + a couple frames for travel time of the grab takes longer then 22 frames. Nor can you shield grab Uair according to the Ike frame data topic. So we can safely use Jab, Grab, Fair, Nair, and Uair and never worry about being shield grabbed. That's more then enough, and we haven't even added in the times we can hit your shield and push you off of a platform so you can't shield grab us. Or hit you from below a platform, so you can't shield grab then.

If you're bombing to avoid Usmash baiting, we're being predictable. If the Ike Uairs instead, you'd get smacked in the face. That's like saying if you miss a grab because we saw it coming, we can smack you with Utilt.

Samus is not a harder match-up then someone like Lucario. And Inui is a terrible Ike to base any of your opinion of the MU on. His Ike is very basic and doesn't think outside of a very small box. 6-4 is the advantage Samus has. Nothing more.

1. Untill you play a good samus your comments hold no water. I say this because its evident that you dont know about samus shield grab. Its also evident that the frame data you provided only adds up if conditions are PERFECT on both sides. That NEVER happens.

2. I didnt just name Inui. I named several ikes and it worked on ALL of them. Ill name them again: Lee/Inui/Burrito/Bored/Bretster/Slaps/Mr. Doom/Doom/Hylian and probably more.

3. No theory crafting plz.

Xyro, I think it's about 6-4, (though I really hate assigning numbers to match-ups).

Don't count Inui in your list of "Ikes" you've "decimated." Not sure how much he's improved, but he was CLUELESS last I saw you play him. I mean, he fell for your tether edge-stealing about 5 stocks in a row without changing anything.

Anyway. Bored and I have both played you, we've both lost to you, and we've both performed better against you as well. He has played you more than I have, though, but with my experience, I'd say it's about a 6-4. Does Samus's shield grab come out fast enough to punish a spaced Nair? Something's telling me it isn't. Projectiles are annoying, but if we learn to deal with them, we can minimize how much they hurt us in a game. Your gimping is pretty high class, though, I'll admit. If we avoid your traps, we avoid the gimp, but say we get hit by Zair out there... survival chances just got slim. UpB OoS is undoubtedly there, but it's not really safe until (insert% here). I distinctly remember you using your upB on the ground against me and it led to an early lost stock.

When all things are added up, it's pretty easy to say it's in Samus's favor. But. I don't think it goes past 6-4. Definitely not past 65-35.

65-35. Bored is the absolute best ike i have ever played and i still think this.

Xyro, the last time I played you was during OH SNAP. That was...six months ago. Granted, you did beat me, but molested is going a little too far. Perhaps I should play you again, sometime soon. By the way, it's Mr. Doom, and get it right.

I was talking about the Doom on the EC but i forgot i beat you too. Yes we need a rematch

 

[benaji261!]

I'd wanna play you too Xyro. I need a car.

 

[Slaps]

Anyway. Bored and I have both played you, we've both lost to you, and we've both performed better against you as well.

WTF?!?!?! Where am I in this??? So now you are excluding me?!?!?!

2. I didnt just name Inui. I named several ikes and it worked on ALL of them. Ill name them again: Lee/Inui/Burrito/Bored/Bretster/Slaps/Mr. Doom/Doom/Hylian and probably more.

Thank you! Lol get ready to get ***** at World Hobo 2.

By the way i believe that all the ikes should share a hotel room for World Hobo 2, we are going to have a lot. I believe these are the Ikes going: Me, Brett, Bored, YagamiLight, TwilightCloud, Mr. Doom?, Niddo(?), and Arturo(does he count?). That is gonna be one manly sleepover.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Untill you play a good samus your comments hold no water. I say this because its evident that you dont know about samus shield grab. Its also evident that the frame data you provided only adds up if conditions are PERFECT on both sides. That NEVER happens.

You said always punish with a shield grab. I proved that this is not possible. Your words, not mine. Sure, Ike could be a tad slow, but Samus could be as well. Works both ways.

And theorycrafting is what I excel at: My reaction time is too slow to rely on experience, so my of my experience is getting beaten even if I take them to Pirate Ship nine times out of ten. However, analyzing frame data, videos, or watching players in person allow me to figure things out, and very often arrive at the same conclusions as people who play well. If I happen to get to play against people and test out my own theories in smaller scales (like can X be used to combat Y move) that's just icing on the cake. I do well enough that my MU analyzation has been used as the main one for a character in our newest (if very slow moving, we have like 6 up.) MU topic. I generally speaking know what I'm talking about.

Frankly, I can't remember seeing a single Ike agree that it's 65-35 Samus's A, even the ones you've beaten. Samus is not as hard as what Olimar is most likely going to be next time we discuss him, nor is she nearly as hard as D3, who hovers between 3-7 and 35-65. Heck, a good number of the Ikes around here doubt that it's 6-4 and are leaning more towards 55-45.

The only person I've seen say 65-35 is you. Maybe Inui does, but nobody takes him seriously, nor should they.

BTW: I won't be at WHOBO2 Slaps. >_>

 

[Mr. Doom]

I can't go to WHOBO 2 being that it is during the Easter weekend.

 

[Slaps]

I can't go to WHOBO 2 being that it is during the Easter weekend.

Ahahahaha christians. Makes me glad I am a Jew sometimes lol.

You tell him Niddo! I have nothing to say in this YET, i am neutral FOR NOW. Slaps will rant later when I am not on internet channel......

 

[numba1cheese]

Well, we can talk about this and that, who is better at what, but in the end, it depends on how the match is played out. In tournies, people tend to be more campy, gay, and what not...so I definitely see Samus getting super annoying while fighting Ike. I'm not gonna give a number per say, because I have 0 experience against the character, but it doesn't sound very welcoming.