Apex 2012 | CHECK OP FOR EVENT BRACKETS/POOLS | EVO 2012 QUALIFIER!

[hunger!]

4-man pools = just for getting the tournament done faster. No other justification, really. Seeding would be worse for subsequent pools since you only have two tiers to work with instead of three (6-person top 3 getting out vs 4-person top 2 getting out).

Basically four person pools is pointless, you might as well run a double elimination bracket. All four person pools is is faking the idea and purpose of even running pools, the idea of which was to give the player, in particular not the best players, a chance to play a lot of people in real tournament matches.

I'll never forget my pools at Melee FCD, where it was 8 person pools top 4 advance into 8 person pools top 4 advance, etc. It was awesome, I played so many different people, some from other countries, and many way better than me. I only got through to the second round, but I felt I easily got my money worth of matches.

Looking over the schedule for Apex 2012 I see some things that are worrying. Tournament match time for Brawl, for example, will be what? 3PM - 3AM? 12 hours to whittle 300 people to top 8. If the argument is there will be plenty of friendly stations, then why not just make the pools larger and take longer to complete the tournament so lower to mid level players get more matches, especially with better opponents since typically those better opponents will not be playing friendlies anyways (they will still be in the tournament!)

Don't get me wrong, first and foremost the tournament needs to be completed. But don't tell people there will be plenty of friendly setups all weekend long & that you need to run four-person pools in order to finish on time, since they are contradicting statements.

Ideally tournaments should be run in order to give the most tournament match time to as many people as possible, since right off the bat from the first round of pools no matter how you run it you will likely be eliminating half of your entrants (e.g. the majority of your paying customers). If this indeed is the goal or at least a higher priority then simply completing the tournament as fast as possible (e.g. a single elimination bracket) then it is simply a matter of looking at the number of setups available and the number of hours available. The goal is to maximize the average match count (average = # of total matches played/# of entrants).

If it is truly about creating the best experience possible for as many as possible at the event, then maximizing tournament playing time should be important. The stream monsters won't be effected at all if there is four-person or six-person pools, so that isn't even a factor here.

Also Melee finals an entire day after Melee finishes?

AZ layin' down some mofuggin' logic.

 

[DRDN]

Merkui APEX isn't the tourney for all the lower level players to have fun entering the bracket its to find who's the best in the world. The lower level players are supposed to have fun with the friendlies setups all the other games hanging out with the community... this has been said several times apex is the best of the best and that doesn't go well with the people hoping to do good with limited ability

 

[Grey Belnades]

We've been wanting this to happen since the first Genesis but those twins never travel so it hasn't been a possibility
I would even singles MM them just for the sake of some hype.

To add to the hilarity, it would be the New Mexico Twins vs the Mexico Twins. I mean come on what are the odds right?

Aw man, this NEEDS to happen!

 

[The_SMILE]

Whats up with the pricing? I can spectate for $10's, but for venue fee if I go I a smash tourney is $40 then $15 for the tourney? Is this right?

 

[AlphaZealot]

Merkui APEX isn't the tourney for all the lower level players to have fun entering the bracket its to find who's the best in the world. The lower level players are supposed to have fun with the friendlies setups all the other games hanging out with the community... this has been said several times apex is the best of the best and that doesn't go well with the people hoping to do good with limited ability

You can find the best of the best and give people lots of matches. The concepts are not mutually exclusive. Doing both finds the best players but also ensures your 'pot fillers' get their money's worth, and since 95% of people entering are not going to win money and 50% will not make it past round 1 of pools, I think it is likely an important concept. Further, with larger pools there will be more accuracy in rankings (or at least, more positions ranked out). Instead of 1/4th of the tournament field being tied for last, 1/6th of the tournament field will be tied for last. Speaking of which, in a double elimination setup, 1/4th of the tournament field is tied for last.

My biggest regret as the Tournament Director of MLG was not being able to run pools and only having a double elimination bracket. The thing is: I was hard capped at 20 setups. If I had 32-40 setups that would have changed things completely.

 

[Merkuri]

Merkui APEX isn't the tourney for all the lower level players to have fun entering the bracket its to find who's the best in the world. The lower level players are supposed to have fun with the friendlies setups all the other games hanging out with the community... this has been said several times apex is the best of the best and that doesn't go well with the people hoping to do good with limited ability

No, the point I am making isn't for lower level players to enter the bracket, the point I am making is for level players to get a worthwhile amount of games in, which is impossible with a 4 man pool. Looking back, I can't think of an international tourney that had less than 6 man pools. There is no reason for an international tourney to have pools smaller than 6 people, efforts should be made so that 6 is the minimum.

 

[AlphaZealot]

To go a bit further: I would not suggets doing 8 person pools, the time hinderance is significant. Some pools will likely have 7 people in order to even things out as it is, if indeed 6 person pools are the chosen method.

 

[Anth0ny]

some of you guys think too much

apex is going to be hype as ****. top 8 sunday will be INSANITY.

if there's one thing I'm NOT worried about, it's how many games I'm going to get in over the weekend. there's going to be friendly stations set up for all three days, it's really not going to be a problem. don't worry about games, the experience is going to be out of this world.

 

[GDX]

Lol looks like fatal had a ****ty morning

 

[DRDN]

The TO is supposed to make sure the tournament goes well the number of games you play will be on you. Which is why there are so many friendly set ups 3 days atleast a dozen friendly setups each day and hundreds of people there to play the game...if you feel you didn't get your moneys worth in games that means you didn't try

 

[Merkuri]

some of you guys think too much

apex is going to be hype as ****. top 8 sunday will be INSANITY.

if there's one thing I'm NOT worried about, it's how many games I'm going to get in over the weekend. there's going to be friendly stations set up for all three days, it's really not going to be a problem. don't worry about games, the experience is going to be out of this world.

Well I'm poor so I have to worry about how my money is being spent.

The TO is supposed to make sure the tournament goes well the number of games you play will be on you. Which is why there are so many friendly set ups 3 days atleast a dozen friendly setups each day and hundreds of people there to play the game...if you feel you didn't get your moneys worth in games that means you didn't try

The point people are trying to make is that they are paying for a tournament and not a smashfest. Tourney matches >>>>> friendlies. Which is why we're concerned about how many tournament matches we'll be able to get in and not how many friendlies.

 

[M@v]

The only problem I have with these 4 person pools besides the whole time debate(Im staying out of that one its kind of ugly right now), is that if you lose just one set, you may very well have already eliminated yourself from the tournament. With a 4 person pool, there is a very high possibility you could wind up with a three way 2-1 set tie. Call me crazy, but it would be ****ing BULL**** if someone doesn't make it out of a pool because they only lose ONE set.

Example: Player 1 is the predicted top seed. Player 2 is the predicted 2nd seed. Player 3 is from an obscure region and not much is known, so he's assumed 3rd seed. Player 4 is a middle/not good player. Player 4 gets 0-3d. Player 3 turns out to be a really good player, and actually beats the number one player. The number two player manages to beat him though, but loses to the top player. They are all now 2-1 set count, and someone is being eliminated from the tournament even though only 1 set was lost. EVEN IN BRACKET YOU CAN LOSE 1 SET AND STILL BE IN THE TOURNAMENT! But this pool setup could be potentially even harder than a bracket on players. There are a couple other instances where a 3 way tie could develop, but this is the most likely one.

There are so many pools, I guarantee you there will be at least one instance of this if 4 person pools are done. I really don't want to see good players get ****ed over just because they dropped ONE set in their first pool.

 

[Juggleguy]

The 4-player pools are disappointing, especially for a national, but with so many other events at the tourney like Street Fighter and Pokemon, it looks like Smash had to make some sacrifices in terms of running time. All we can hope for right now is an extremely careful and meticulous seeding effort by the TOs, particularly for first round pools.

 

[Divinokage]

SF and MvC doesn't even look like it's gonna be that huge, there should be plenty of time to do everything no?

 

[Hylian]

Well, wobbling was banned because a few people complained last apex, if we complain enough we won't have 4 person pools!

:/.

 

[da K.I.D.]

They really aren't going to change their minds though :/ What it comes down to is people would rather have 4 person pools than no pools at all even though it makes no sense. I personally would rather have a bracket lol.

this is my thoughts exactly.

This....so much.

After reading this thread I see a strong sentiment of players telling others to quit complaining about the pool size, and just get better so you won't drown in the pool. That is upsetting and it is really an insulting and out right stupid statement to make. Some people are just bad at the game, and it's basically telling them that if you're bad at the game you shouldn't expect to enjoy the tournament.

I dont understand this logic.
If youre bad, youre not going to last very long in the tournament regardless so I dont get what youre saying here.

The enjoyment comes more from seeing ppl that youve met before and meeting new ppl from all over the country/world and being able to play your favorite players, and seeing the titans clash in person. i dont think all the ppl that know they are bad are really that focused on how many matches they get to play. I know I wasnt back when I was just another rrandom pot filler (inb4ustillareherpadurr)

Everyone is paying the same entry fee, so there is no reason why lower level players to be shunned. The community does not want 4 man pools, is it so much to ask that I get a decent amount of in my initial pool in the case that I don't make it out?

The problem here is that people are split on what they want. even in this thread you and a couple other people have said that they want 7 and 8 man pools, while people like me and hylian would just prefer to have a straight bracket no matter how many people are here.

I think some major FGC tournaments it is actually done this way, but I don't think it's something that has ever been done at a smash tournament and I think it will break the rythim of the tourney. On the other hand though I don't see how logistically it makes sense given scope of the tourney. It'll be confusing running both melee and brawl on the same day. It may work, it may not. Experimenting isn't always a bad idea, we'll see what happens I guess.

The bolded portion is something that starting to really get on my nerves personally.

Its like if somebody ever tries to do something outside of whats already been done, people start crying and cutting themselves. Just because something is the way Genesis/Pound did things doesnt mean it was perfect. Cause last I checked, Genesis and Pound both had money stealing fiascos surrounding them. Not trying to stir up bad feelings or resentment but 'this is how that other tournament did it' isnt valid to me because those tournaments werent perfect either.


i used to complain about menial stuff like that, but as i started to learn more about the inner working of big productions like this, i realised its just not possible to do everything to please everyone, and just because the ppl in charge are doing things outside the norm, doesnt mean they arent doing everything they can for everyone involed. still some ppl are gonna get shafted and just going to have to deal with whatever they get. thats unavoidable

Now I realise why people say one should start and run a successful regional/local series before they try to do a national. It takes a lot of community trust and support to make it work and even though this is his 3rd Apex, Alex still doesnt have the trust that I thought he would have earned by now.

some of you guys think too much

apex is going to be hype as ****. top 8 sunday will be INSANITY.

if there's one thing I'm NOT worried about, it's how many games I'm going to get in over the weekend. there's going to be friendly stations set up for all three days, it's really not going to be a problem. don't worry about games, the experience is going to be out of this world.

The TO is supposed to make sure the tournament goes well the number of games you play will be on you. Which is why there are so many friendly set ups 3 days atleast a dozen friendly setups each day and hundreds of people there to play the game...if you feel you didn't get your moneys worth in games that means you didn't try

basically these 2 hit it right on the head.

 

[tekkie]

KirbyKing27

xXLazOrrzXx

SuperSonicSpeedster29

1337Donkeypunch1337

and last but not least

Eggbawmber22

so disappointed when none of these people were actually on the players list lol

if you feel you didn't get your moneys worth in games that means you didn't try

i'd like to note that relying on the tournament venue for friendlies is an awful idea in my opinion/experience. at genesis2 the amount of time i spent playing at the venue versus at the hotel was staggering. when you have 100 people trying to play on 2 setups it turns into 76 people sitting around bored.

i was going to ask whether there's a higher shortage of TVs or Wiis because i wouldn't want to check my Wii in and have it unused for a weekend instead of playing friendlies elsewhere. also the setup/raffle ticket doesn't specify whether a "setup" for a raffle ticket includes a TV. i'm not bringing a TV on a plane

but i know that not being a super pro top level player means the TO's interests and my own are different: they want the tournament to go smoothly, whereas i want to play smash 24/7 for three days straight. i know i'm going to personally get a lot more mileage out of this tournament if i keep my wii set up where i'm staying for the tournament

TL;DR, i'm probably not making top 8 so i'm keeping my wii with me so once silly-*** pools are done i can actually play smash for the remaining day and a half lol

 

[Isatis]

On another note, we are 4 people away from breaking Axis's record of 303 people (the biggest Brawl tournament of all time), and only 4 days until registration ends.

 

[t3h Icy]

The only problem I have with these 4 person pools besides the whole time debate(Im staying out of that one its kind of ugly right now), is that if you lose just one set, you may very well have already eliminated yourself from the tournament. With a 4 person pool, there is a very high possibility you could wind up with a three way 2-1 set tie. Call me crazy, but it would be ****ing BULL**** if someone doesn't make it out of a pool because they only lose ONE set.

Example: Player 1 is the predicted top seed. Player 2 is the predicted 2nd seed. Player 3 is from an obscure region and not much is known, so he's assumed 3rd seed. Player 4 is a middle/not good player. Player 4 gets 0-3d. Player 3 turns out to be a really good player, and actually beats the number one player. The number two player manages to beat him though, but loses to the top player. They are all now 2-1 set count, and someone is being eliminated from the tournament even though only 1 set was lost. EVEN IN BRACKET YOU CAN LOSE 1 SET AND STILL BE IN THE TOURNAMENT! But this pool setup could be potentially even harder than a bracket on players. There are a couple other instances where a 3 way tie could develop, but this is the most likely one.

There are so many pools, I guarantee you there will be at least one instance of this if 4 person pools are done. I really don't want to see good players get ****ed over just because they dropped ONE set in their first pool.

A lot of this. Let's make a real example of it.

Let's assume Taj is capable of beating Mango again. Also in the pool is Hax and Meleemaster87. Meleemaster87 gets 0-2'd by everyone.

Taj beats Mango 2-0, Mango beats Hax 2-1, Hax beats Taj 2-0

Mango gets eliminated.

Or an even worse example is Mango beats Hax 2-0, and with a perfect tie, this leads to redos, which requires more time, which is exactly what 4-man Pools are designed to take care of. Not to mention that 3-way ties will be the most common, and they can't be split across two setups (like a 4-way tie could be).

Even the best players in the world may get eliminated in Pools with just the right combination and a very small difference between 2nd and 3rd, and I think that could ruin the top 8 showdown for Sunday, only because of Pools. I'm all for upsets and excitement, but anyone less than perfect may get eliminated early and finish 65th.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that sounds pretty scary.. =/

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmmm...i think i still prefer the 4 man pools to a straight bracket though lol. but then again, i've never been in a 300 man bracket, so i don't even know what that would look like.

me looking for real matches is why i plan to save some money and get a lot of meaningful MM's in.

 

[da K.I.D.]

me looking for real matches is why i plan to save some money and get a lot of meaningful MM's in.

this.

also in the example icy put up, im pretty sure hax taj and mango would be put in the same round one pool.

I was under the assumption that everyone was upset about 1st round pools being 4 people and didnt have as much of an issue if 2nd round were.

if im wrong, excuse me.

 

[z00ted]

PLEASE DO NoT DO 4 MAN POOLS

 

[Toronto Joe]

6 man top 3 like you did last apex, just seed it properly this time perhaps?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well for brawl, theres too many people for it anyway. you guys will be looking at mostly 5 man pools with top 2 at this rate. if not mostly 5 man with some 6 man lol.

also, i don't see the big difference between 4 with top 2 or 6 with top 3. you're either in the top half of the community or you're not. if it's simply a matter of games played, i'm with whoever said something along the lines of that reaaaalllyyy soon into a pool you understand who's going to get out and who isn't. by the end, some games just plain don't matter. they end up being an annoying part of the experience, and cause things to lag behind.

that being said, still mad blunted_object phantasm'd right through my game 1 winning uair even though i had no chance out of the pool lol. graaaah salt.

 

[hungrybox]

There's nothing wrong with 6 man pools

 

[GDX]

Pools take too long as is for only having 6-7 people. The size of events possible is hindered by continuing to have 6-7 man round robin pools all the time due to time constraints.

 

[Anth0ny]

I kinda wish it was just FGC style... each pool is a mini bracket, and two people qualify: one in winners, the other in losers. mad efficient.

Sometimes I think the smash community comes off as a little spoiled. "baww bigger pools I want more games for the money I pay!"

Solutions:

1. Get better. See 2.
2. Play friendlies/money matches.

 

[mikeray4]

Hi, I have Razer practice.
I don't lose to Snakes.

Also Nicole sucks.

Hi, I don't use a wii mote
I don't lose to Fruits

Also I agree with that last statement.




BUT SERIOUSLY, IF WE IN THE SAME POOL WITH ALLY AND CONEY. LOOKS LIKE ALLY AND CONEY WONT BE GETTING INTO THE BRACKET LMAOCNVRHDXBGYRESDBYTG7\5RYH5TR9ENCDSZ

 

[CT Chia]

Chibo, are we to assume you are going to be one of the people in charge of making pools then? Including pool sizes/# of people advancing? And that you will be doing your due diligence to look into the PRs of every state attending, factoring in the strength of the state as a whole and whatnot?

If the answer to all these questions is yes, then I'll drop my comments until pools are released.

Yes, this is correct. I will also be contacting a bunch of heads of various areas to get their input on their players if some PRs are out of date, or players coming from their area we aren't familiar with, etc.

I'm going to start doing some rough calculations tonight.

 

[mikeray4]

Yes, this is correct. I will also be contacting a bunch of heads of various areas to get their input on their players if some PRs are out of date, or players coming from their area we aren't familiar with, etc.

I'm going to start doing some rough calculations tonight.

New England's PR has already been decide for next season, bizkit is waiting till January 1st to release them. If you want more information so your rough calculations are a little more precise just ask him for our PRs, idk HE MIGHT give them to u, or not.

btw I wanted to say "rough ejaculations" cause that sounds hilarious.

 

[Roller]

6 man top 3 like you did last apex, just seed it properly this time perhaps?

^^^^^

Yes, this is correct. I will also be contacting a bunch of heads of various areas to get their input on their players if some PRs are out of date, or players coming from their area we aren't familiar with, etc.

I'm going to start doing some rough calculations tonight.

Cool beans. All I'mma say is Michigan's PR was just updated and can be located in the PR compendium thread,

and it sounds like a lot of people here would love 6 person top 3 move on pools, since it looks like there will be 6 man pools anyway (for Brawl)

Good luck in figuring all this **** out. No doubt it will be difficult.

 

[M@v]

Yes it will be, and that's another reason I don't like 4 person pools. You mis-seed one person and can screw the entire pool over. Odds of screwups are high too due to all the different and obscure regions.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hmm...i must say, i think 2 rounds of 6 man top 3 is better than 6 man top 2 -> 4 man top 2.

it just depends on whether we can REALLY get it all done in one day. 2 rounds of that and then like...8 rounds of the bracket? idk.

 

[Merkuri]

this is my thoughts exactly.

I dont understand this logic.
If youre bad, youre not going to last very long in the tournament regardless so I dont get what youre saying here.

I am saying I'd rather a minimum of 5 games that 3. 3 games is a very miniscule amount of games to play considering the effort, money and sacrifices people make to attend this tourney. Furthermore the minimum for international tournies have always been 6 man pools in the past, so i don't see the need to take that away from the community now.

The enjoyment comes more from seeing ppl that youve met before and meeting new ppl from all over the country/world and being able to play your favorite players, and seeing the titans clash in person. i dont think all the ppl that know they are bad are really that focused on how many matches they get to play. I know I wasnt back when I was just another rrandom pot filler (inb4ustillareherpadurr)

I'm pretty sure that we can both agree that it's not your place(or anyone's) to define where another person's enjoyment for entering a tournament comes from. Yes, I do enjoy meeting new people at the tourney, but what I enjoy just as much, if not more, is actually playing in the tournament. A lot of people share my sentiment so please don't try to tell us where the fun and enjoyment for the tournament comes from, that's your purgative and not all of us share it. A whole bunch of us are concerned with how many matches we will play and just because you weren't/aren't doesn't change that.

The problem here is that people are split on what they want. even in this thread you and a couple other people have said that they want 7 and 8 man pools, while people like me and hylian would just prefer to have a straight bracket no matter how many people are here.

I haven't read anyone saying they want 8 man pools, and Hylian would prefer(correct me I'm wrong Hylian) 6 man pool over a straight brackets, it's just that he'd also prefer straight brackets over 4 man pools. I'm pretty sure that no one except for the Apex staff would have a problem with 6 man pools. It's quite clear that people are against having 4 man pools.

The bolded portion is something that starting to really get on my nerves personally.

Its like if somebody ever tries to do something outside of whats already been done, people start crying and cutting themselves. Just because something is the way Genesis/Pound did things doesnt mean it was perfect. Cause last I checked, Genesis and Pound both had money stealing fiascos surrounding them. Not trying to stir up bad feelings or resentment but 'this is how that other tournament did it' isnt valid to me because those tournaments werent perfect either.


.

What!? Having money issues have nothing to do with how the format of the tourney was run, they had money issues because people were greedy ****s/made bad business decisions. That doesn't in any way, shape of form affect how efficiently the tournament ran or the experience the attendees had at the tourney. Mind you in both cases the money issue were post tournament problems(after the brackets had been played out).

Also the concept of if it's ain't broke don't fix it has a lot of value with me. If we know something works why are you going to make such huge experiments which may(as people are suggesting) turn out to be a be a big failure? But I don't really have a problem with melee having a break between Friday and Sunday, top players should be consistent enough to keep a good game regardless.

 

[Mprime]

6 man top 3 like you did last apex, just seed it properly this time perhaps?

^^^^^^

 

[t3h Icy]

With the size of the tournament too, there will be 4 people in each 2nd Round Pool to make a 64-man bracket, meaning 2nd Round Pools will have 128 people. With all of the talent coming for this, there will be some death pools, only because the number of talented players is more than half the number of players in Pools.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

thing is, those other tournaments did not even attempt to do anything on the scale of whittling to the top 16 in one day. iirc, there might have been round 1 and 2 pools in one day, and then maybe round 3 pools and bracket on another day? to take care of so much in one day, not to mention doing all the seeding to make the next round of pools and make the bracket itself, takes a lot of time.

the later we make things happen, the later the "real" matches occur. as much as i want a larger pool, and as much as i want a ton of matches, I also don't want to see losers bracket sets happen at 1:30 in the morning just so we can make it to the point of the bracket we want to be in. and as much as the community is notorious for having pools, we're just as notorious for not getting them done in a reasonable fashion, timewise.

 

[Linguini]

6 man pools with top 3 making it out makes more sense imo. not all these people are bringing these issues up by mere coincidence.

AZ pretty much put all my thoughts onto paper though. If you are set on 4 person pools then you might as well do the FGC style bracket elim that anthony brought up.

 

[Grey Belnades]

On another note, we are 4 people away from breaking Axis's record of 303 people (the biggest Brawl tournament of all time), and only 4 days until registration ends.

Woo, come on lazy people. Get registering.