Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Dylan_Tnga]

^^ Nice grammar. Care to share the logic behind your brilliant insights

Um... wavedashing isn't realistic... but for the exact same reasons neither are double just, most up Bs, and a number of other things.

Arguing something shouldn't be in a video game because it isn't realistically possible, much less one that goes out of it's way to avoid realism, is silly...

Win times infinity plus infinity... and beyond.

 

[mrbrightside]

It'll be there. As will the entire roster from SSB64. Nintendo isn't going to remove WD just because they didn't intentionally implement the concept. It worked marvels for competitive play yet wasn't needed to still enjoy one's self in casual (that is unless casual is competitive for you)

Like my man Ricky Bobby says,

"If you're not first, you're last."

 

[Kirby knight]

I don't care if WD'ing is in or not. I really don't care about WD'ing because I never really got the chance to learn it before my GC broke. Once I get my Wii I most likely try and learn it for SSBM and SSBB if it's still implemented.

 

[MKDSPoKE]

Pardon me for being nooby, but what is wavedashing?

 

[Truegamer#1]

Pardon me for being nooby, but what is wavedashing?

look it up on youtube,
tons of videos on what it is & how to do it...

 

[Takeshi245]

look it up on youtube,
tons of videos on what it is & how to do it...

There's that, and there is a sticky thread in Melee Discussion about wavedashing and other advanced techniques as well.

 

[Johnknight1]

Um... wavedashing isn't realistic... but for the exact same reasons neither are double just, most up Bs, and a number of other things.

Arguing something shouldn't be in a video game because it isn't realistically possible, much less one that goes out of it's way to avoid realism, is silly...

Thank you! I swear anyone who says "zomg wavedashing is unrealistic, it makes melee unreal" obviously forgot the whole method of fighting is unrealistic. If anyone brings that up again, I'll just quote this, and say "pwned!"

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

"Wavedashing isn't realistic!"

ROFLCOPTER

Okay, I'll back down and admit, if they make it official (and make Link better at it) I won't complain in the absolute least.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

"Wavedashing isn't realistic!"

ROFLCOPTER

Okay, I'll back down and admit, if they make it official (and make Link better at it) I won't complain in the absolute least.

And if we can still do it, it's official.

Links traction exists for a reason.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

What I mean by official is that Nintendo actually accepts and says it's a real concept.

And what nessicarly IS the purpose for Link's traction? I never quite figured that out.

 

[MookieRah]

I feel this post of mine went vastly unread, seeing how this discussion cropped up afterwards, so lemme post it again.

It doesn't matter what you call the wavedash. A glitch, an exploit, an anomaly of the physics enigine, or what have you. It is what it is, and it's not a problem by any means, nor does it impose on anyone :-P. Unnatural? LOL, of course. Fun? Yar! Fun stuff in a game with a turtle dragon that fights with a middle-aged plumber doesn't have to be natural XD.

Wavedash wasn't intended, I don't know what you would call it, but it really doesn't matter. It's just a term, and you are arguing over something that is pointless. The thing that matters is that it is a fun and interesting addition to an already crazy, fun, and innovative franchise. I'm hoping that Nintendo has realized that wavedashing is also a very interesting thing, and that they would either leave it alone or incorporate it into brawl officially and making it easier to perform.

Whether or not they do it is up to Nintendo's discretion, and the only really good points on the anti-wavedashing side have come from Jumanji as well as Aleon in another thread altogether. That said, it would be a shame for it to be removed, because if they did they would simply remove it for the sake of removing it.

 

[Johnknight1]

I feel this post of mine went vastly unread, seeing how this discussion cropped up afterwards, so lemme post it again.

Wavedash wasn't intended, I don't know what you would call it, but it really doesn't matter. It's just a term, and you are arguing over something that is pointless. The thing that matters is that it is a fun and interesting addition to an already crazy, fun, and innovative franchise. I'm hoping that Nintendo has realized that wavedashing is also a very interesting thing, and that they would either leave it alone or incorporate it into brawl officially and making it easier to perform.

Whether or not they do it is up to Nintendo's discretion, and the only really good points on the anti-wavedashing side have come from Jumanji as well as Aleon in another thread altogether. That said, it would be a shame for it to be removed, because if they did they would simply remove it for the sake of removing it.

You deserve a cookie! Exellent points! I'll just copy and paste this, along with <3's post(s) to prove my points easily! YAE laziness!

 

[Wyvern]

Links traction exists for a reason.

And exactly what reason, if you don't mind my asking, is that?

Are you proposing that the developers gave Link high traction explicitly to hinder his wavedashing ability, thus insuring that he was balanced against poor underprivileged characters like Fox and Falco? Because if you are, you're delusional. For a lot of reasons.

Even if the developers were aware of the wavedash (and it's entirely possible that they were), there's no conceivable way that they forsaw its potential in combat and balanced the characters around it.

 

[chiyo-chan' dad]

Mmmm.....Wavedashing in Brawl?

I hope it is in Brawl, i've been trying to Wavedash for a long time, and now I can, so i'm just hoping it will be back.

Wavedashing ftw.

 

[<π]

You deserve a cookie! Exellent points! I'll just copy and paste this, along with <3's post(s) to prove my points easily! YAE laziness!

I'm actually Pro removal of wave-dashing. I think it would help to cement Brawl as not Melee in the competitive circuits mind, and force us to approach the game differently. A healthy change to the smash competitive environment. But that said there aren't any solid reasons to remove it, like MookieRah said it hasn't made the game unplayable in the least, and if moderated better every character could get a big boost out of it.

just wanted to make my side clear since you were quoting me in your defense.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm actually Pro removal of wave-dashing. I think it would help to cement Brawl as not Melee in the competitive circuits mind, and force us to approach the game differently. A healthy change to the smash competitive environment.

That seems like a change for the sake of change though. Brawl won't be melee by any means, but why take away a good thing for a *very* slightly different feel? I don't understand how Brawl needs to be defended from being it's own, when there are so many different things we can tell that are different from the videos. Brawl simply won't be another Melee with enhanced graphics, but that doesn't mean that wavedashing should be taken out.

It comes down again that people give so much power to "wavedashing." In all honestly it's HIGHLY overrated, as it doesn't directly affect matches as much as a lot of other techniques (l-canceling, and DI, official things btw, come to mind here) out there. If they took wavedashing out of the game, but left all the other stuff it wouldn't force us to approach the game differently at all.

I for one don't see them removing any of the official high end stuff and that will make Brawl more like melee than wavedashing ever could.

 

[Adi]

MookieRah is correct, wavedashing did nothing to harm any member of the smash community while enhancing the meta-game of Smash greatly. Removing it would be change for the sake of change.

 

[<π]

I guess that exactly what I'm saying... just change for the sake of change, but thinking back the transition from the original to brawl had tons of that, grabs were toned down a redediculus level, Z-canceling changed a great deal as well when it became L-canceling, in fact just about every character had their move sets changed almost completely in affect. And it wasn't because the game was broken, even with all of these features the game was eailiy playable, and fun at higher levels of play, still competitive. I think the big change was made in a kind of for the sake of it manner, but did L-canceling really need to be introduced the way it was? Did air dodges have to be put in melee to make items link and samus less of a threat? No.

Kind of another tangent here, but you were right, when you start to get into high level play it isn't wavedashing that pushes people above that "pro" bar but the accuracy and reaction time in L-canceling, DI, tech chasing, following DI, etc.
But I ask you this, if the wavedash is as overrated as it is, why would it's removal be so dreaded by so many of the communities serious competitive players? Wavedashing may not be one of the most important features in the game but it has become such a fundamental building block for most competitive players, myself included, that a lot of us just flat out fear the brawl existing without it. I'd just like to see how people would adapt to the game if that feature doesn't exist. And I guess that all it comes down to for me.

 

[Adi]

I guess that exactly what I'm saying... just change for the sake of change, but thinking back the transition from the original to brawl had tons of that, grabs were toned down a redediculus level, Z-canceling changed a great deal as well when it became L-canceling, in fact just about every character had their move sets changed almost completely in affect. And it wasn't because the game was broken, even with all of these features the game was eailiy playable, and fun at higher levels of play, still competitive. I think the big change was made in a kind of for the sake of it manner, but did L-canceling really need to be introduced the way it was? Did air dodges have to be put in melee to make items link and samus less of a threat? No.

Yup you're completely right. I really hope the tweak all the movesets and physics around. However the difference is that you're suggesting to completely remove a technique, which I find ridiculous. Brawl should add to Melee, not remove.

 

[MookieRah]

But I ask you this, if the wavedash is as overrated as it is, why would it's removal be so dreaded by so many of the communities serious competitive players? Wavedashing may not be one of the most important features in the game but it has become such a fundamental building block for most competitive players, myself included, that a lot of us just flat out fear the brawl existing without it. I'd just like to see how people would adapt to the game if that feature doesn't exist. And I guess that all it comes down to for me.

Because it's fun and unique, which is what this franchise is all about, that and there isn't a really good reason to get rid of it.

As far as the changes from SSB to Melee, well SSB was very unpolished and many new ideas were introduced so it's understandable that Melee was vastly different. Melee is a lot more refined and there are only a handful of things that I can think of to improve on it.

And exactly what reason, if you don't mind my asking, is that?

Are you proposing that the developers gave Link high traction explicitly to hinder his wavedashing ability, thus insuring that he was balanced against poor underprivileged characters like Fox and Falco? Because if you are, you're delusional. For a lot of reasons.

The developers gave Link, Bowser, and etc lots of traction so they wouldn't be knocked far when hit or when they shielded. This isn't a bad thing in a lot of cases, but it also leads to a poor wavedash. Wavedashing was unintended, but traction DEFINITELY was intended to be there.

 

[Wyvern]

The developers gave Link, Bowser, and etc lots of traction so they wouldn't be knocked far when hit or when they shielded. This isn't a bad thing in a lot of cases, but it also leads to a poor wavedash. Wavedashing was unintended, but traction DEFINITELY was intended to be there.

I'm aware of that, but that wasn't the topic at hand when the comment popped up.

Traction and wavedashing might be closely related to one another in the game's physics, but in terms of game balance, they have almost nothing to do with one another. How much of an effect does traction on its own have on a character's performance? Not a whole lot, as far as I can see. How much does a character benefit from being able to enhance their moveset and general combat performance with wavedashing? A lot. To that end, who does and doesn't benefit from wavedashing is completely arbitrary in terms of character balance. Characters don't benefit from wavedashing because they need that benefit to compete with other characters. Characters benefit from wavedashing because, by sheer coincidence, a completely unrelated stat just so happens to fall into a certain range.

Even if wavedashing returns in Brawl, things cannot stay like that. Very few wavedash supporters seem to acknowledge this, and it's frustrating for those of us who happen to enjoy the playstyles of characters like Link and Ganondorf and Bowser who weren't fortunate enough to be one of the lucky few to land on the top tiers. It's always "Oh, the Sheik vs. Falco game is made much more interesting thanks to wavedashing, and to hell with the rest of you". Everyone--on both sides of the argument--needs to start looking at the big picture instead of worrying about JUST the competitive scene or JUST the casual scene or JUST their one favorite character. No matter what decision is made about wavedashing, it will affect everyone.

 

[greenblob]

Unless it's something like VF or SC in which the team is very competitive-minded, game balance in the designing process won't matter because numerous other things will be discovered and offset it--wavedashing alone cannot be responsible for all of the imbalances.

What if WD didn't exist in Melee?
Well, let's take a look at a real case--the lack of normal DI in SSB 64. The lack of normal DI and wall-teching allows for insane zero-to-death combos. You can't escape these, so what do people do? They learn how to smash DI. Also, there's no edge-teching, so they learn ledge-DI (basically smash wall DI). A similar thing would've happened with Melee--not much would've changed (aside from Luigi and waveshining) because people would master pivoting instead (which is much harder).

 

[_Phloat_]

Without Wavedashing, the tiers would look almost the same, you do know?

Sure, it helps fox, but he is broken for many other reasons..

Without wavedash, he can still grab out of the shine, or just jump away, so it is still almost impossible to punish.

Like he said, if you couldn't wavedash, DDing and Pivoting would rule the day.

 

[AlphaZealot]

The whole character balance in regards to wavedashing is a pointless issue because we don't know if the developers wanted the game to be balanced in the first place. Obviously they made some attempt, but they also created characters like Pichu who hurts itself and is very easy to kill.

Also, focusing on how the high tier characters benifit from wavedashing totally ignores the other characters who benifit, specifically: Almost every character in the game, with Luigi, Mario, and Doctor Mario having some of the best wavedashes.

It would be nice though, if in the new game they made a stride to balance everything.

 

[Pr0g]

Without Wavedashing, the tiers would look almost the same, you do know?

Sure, it helps fox, but he is broken for many other reasons..

Without wavedash, he can still grab out of the shine, or just jump away, so it is still almost impossible to punish.

Like he said, if you couldn't wavedash, DDing and Pivoting would rule the day.

You call Fox broken because he can jump cancel his shine? That's.. really remarkable. That's like saying Samus is broke because she has jump canceled missles or falco broken for having SHL.

If Fox is broken for ANY reason, it's for his up smash. But I wouldn't even call him broken for that.

 

[Wyvern]

Yeah, some low tier characters benefit from wavedashing a lot and rose the tiers somewhat because of it. Some low tier characters have good wavedashes but didn't really get any better, like Mewtwo. Some low tier characters don't get decent wavedashes at all, like Bowser. Some high tier characters have powerful wavedash-related combos, like Fox. Some high tier characters don't get much benefit from wavedashing but do okay anyway, like Peach (I think). That's what makes it so completely arbitrary.

I know that wavedashing is far from being the number one balance issue in Melee, but I also think it's significant enough that it can't just be ignored again like it was this time around. If left unchecked, it's pretty much a random element, and intentionally ignoring a random element would hurt the balance in Brawl somewhat. I know it's impossible for a game like Brawl to be perfectly balanced, and that people will always be finding new ways to manipulate the game, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't even try. There may be new techniques that go undetected, but they do know about wavedashing now, and they have to make a decision about how they're going to control it. Maybe that'll mean making its effects more even across multiple characters, maybe it'll mean making it less important all-around, maybe it'll mean something else. I don't know. But something is going to change.

 

[maxpower1227]

The whole character balance in regards to wavedashing is a pointless issue because we don't know if the developers wanted the game to be balanced in the first place.

>_o

Obviously they made some attempt, but they also created characters like Pichu who hurts itself and is very easy to kill.

Pichu is also a small target, decently quick, and has several powerful attacks that DON'T do damage to Pichu's self.

Really, I can't speak for the top few percent of Smash players, but for the vast majority who don't use advanced techs, Pichu is perfectly playable. I believe in the tourney scene there was even a team that played as Bowser and Pichu.

 

[Adi]

Pichu is also a small target, decently quick, and has several powerful attacks that DON'T do damage to Pichu's self.

Really, I can't speak for the top few percent of Smash players, but for the vast majority who don't use advanced techs, Pichu is perfectly playable. I believe in the tourney scene there was even a team that played as Bowser and Pichu.

Yeah, playing as a low tier character never makes any matchup an impossibility if you're skilled enough to make up for it. That doesn't change the fact that the imbalance doesn't exist.

 

[MookieRah]

Pichu sucks in casual play. He is just not good. You can't really argue that he is balanced in low level play because he is obviously not. Compared to the low level play characters that dominate (sheik, roy, link, etc) he just gets *****.

 

[Syril]

Even Pichu's trophy calls him a handicap.

 

[sleeeeep]

BOOH wavedashing! haha i hate wavedashing i refuse to perfect it. I can do it i just refuse to perfect my fighting skills to wavedashing! IMO its not very fun and it kinda riuns the SB expierence. And when i say Kinda i mean like 2%... I love melee regardless of wavedashing. I go to tournys and if i loose to a Wavedasher i dont get pissed and say to hell with you i quit Melee forever.

But i really do hope Wavedashing is taken out of Brawl. I think it would make the fights alot more interesting, but again this is all my opinion. And i know alot of people probboly think oooh i just suck and cant learn wave dashing so thats why i hate it. But that is untrue i just refuse to. It isnt how the game is meant to be played.

One thing i cant understand is how many people there are who seem to doubt Brawl. They act like its goig to riun the the name of smash and that they all will stick to melee??? When Melee came out i remember playing it and i didnt really like it. The characters felt to heavy and move a bit to wierd for my taste. But i continued playing and 3 hours into playing it i fell in love all over again. Now going back to the 64 version is wierd. And i have complete faith that Brawl will be just as good if not better then melee. It will just take some getting used to.

When melee came out i liked going threw the new characters and finding maybe someone new to call my main. I don't think it would be that fun if the ne game came out and the characters were the same and u stuck with ur main and maybe messed around with the new characters a bit. In melee we had to relearn to fight compared to the 64 game. And i hope its the same for brawl. Relearn the fighting system! and again fporgive my bad grammer and all that crap.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

BOOH wavedashing! haha i hate wavedashing i refuse to perfect it. I can do it i just refuse to perfect my fighting skills to wavedashing! IMO its not very fun and it kinda riuns the SB expierence. And when i say Kinda i mean like 2%... I love melee regardless of wavedashing. I go to tournys and if i loose to a Wavedasher i dont get pissed and say to hell with you i quit Melee forever.

Uh oh! we got a wavedasher here! LMFAO that term cracks me up everytime ''wavedasher''

But i really do hope Wavedashing is taken out of Brawl. I think it would make the fights alot more interesting, but again this is all my opinion. And i know alot of people probboly think oooh i just suck and cant learn wave dashing so thats why i hate it. But that is untrue i just refuse to. It isnt how the game is meant to be played.

Well you're right about personal opinion because pretty much most of the players that can win in this game, and for thousands of reasons other than the ability to wavedash would disagree with you about how the game was ''meant'' to be played.

 

[maxpower1227]

Well you're right about personal opinion because pretty much most of the players that can win in this game, and for thousands of reasons other than the ability to wavedash would disagree with you about how the game was ''meant'' to be played.

Here's why I and others say what we do about how the game was "meant" to be played.

In just about any other fighting game (Mortal Kombat, KI, VF, Tekken, SF, whatever), to do a special move, you have to press a certain combination of buttons with proper timing - and many of those involved rotations in an era of d-pad gaming (unless you played at an arcade). They were by no means impossible to master, but definitely were not trivial by any means and required a good deal of concentration on what buttons you were pressing.

When Smash Bros came out, the control style was radically different than anything seen before. Now to do a special move, you just have to press a button. This greatly simplified the button mechanics and made the game strategy solely about knwoing how and when to use your moves. You still needed quick thinking and reflexes, but your ability to perform precise movements with your fingers was no longer an issue. This seems like a clearly intentional attempt to change the focus of fighting games and make them more about mental ability than manual dexterity.

So with that in mind, what would the tournament players say to Nintendo if they decided to make all of the aadvanced techniques easy to pull off? If they were all made public knowledge and easy to perform, the game would still have a large amount of strategy - as you all say, the skill lies in knowing when to use the moves, not in merely being able to perform them. If that's true, then there should be no problem in making them all easy to perform.

 

[Hydde]

I insist, the problem is not the wavedash, the problem is that there are just too many crapy characters in comparison with the top tiers

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Here's why I and others say what we do about how the game was "meant" to be played.

In just about any other fighting game (Mortal Kombat, KI, VF, Tekken, SF, whatever), to do a special move, you have to press a certain combination of buttons with proper timing - and many of those involved rotations in an era of d-pad gaming (unless you played at an arcade). They were by no means impossible to master, but definitely were not trivial by any means and required a good deal of concentration on what buttons you were pressing.

True, advanced SF takes a -lot- of skill because its precicise timing (when to do the super attack) and a complicated input.

When Smash Bros came out, the control style was radically different than anything seen before. Now to do a special move, you just have to press a button. This greatly simplified the button mechanics and made the game strategy solely about knwoing how and when to use your moves. You still needed quick thinking and reflexes, but your ability to perform precise movements with your fingers was no longer an issue. This seems like a clearly intentional attempt to change the focus of fighting games and make them more about mental ability than manual dexterity.

A very good point, actually. I feel the same way about smashbrothers, and the people you're arguing with here actually agree with you. The better player in smashbros is always the one with better reflexes and quick thinking, regardless of what techniques he uses at any given moment... was it the right technique to use?

Wavedashing isn't always a good thing as you might know. WD spamming will get you big time killed and it serves no purpose at all. And no, wavedashing does not equate to mindgames.. It's just a spacing tool in my eyes, a quick way to space a move that you know will hit and had the quick thinking and reflexes required to see the opening in which to wavedash to the correct place and perform the move. I also throw in WDing randomly with dashdancing to make my movement a little more confusing, ''pulsewalking'' they call it.

So with that in mind, what would the tournament players say to Nintendo if they decided to make all of the aadvanced techniques easy to pull off? If they were all made public knowledge and easy to perform, the game would still have a large amount of strategy - as you all say, the skill lies in knowing when to use the moves, not in merely being able to perform them. If that's true, then there should be no problem in making them all easy to perform.

I wouldn't have a problem as long as they still existed. I just wouldnt want a wavedash button if it interfered with the jump button somehow.

I say that I wouldnt mind a sh button or a wd button on the condition that the veteren players can still SH and WD the way we got used to doing it.

To me, wavedashing is hideously easy, requiring 3 inputs... no single technique in this game aside from a few frivioulous things like moving while SHDLing with fox, is very hard to master. It's using them and knowing when to use what, at what percentage damage what works, counterpicks, counterpick stages, and various game control strategies that's the hard part, and there will never be a button for that!

 

[Adi]

So with that in mind, what would the tournament players say to Nintendo if they decided to make all of the aadvanced techniques easy to pull off? If they were all made public knowledge and easy to perform, the game would still have a large amount of strategy - as you all say, the skill lies in knowing when to use the moves, not in merely being able to perform them. If that's true, then there should be no problem in making them all easy to perform.

I suppose it would be alright but I can't see any benefit in lessening the skill gradient between the good and the bad.

 

[_Phloat_]

This Thread is huge, why do people like controversy so much?

No matter how many people say that it is a glitch, it was in melee, and there is no way around that, it was used in tournaments..

If it is in brawl, you cannot learn to fight without it, unless you like starting at a disadvantage!

You may mention aniki, but I am sure that if he wavedashed he could cream me, it would not hurt him, it is just the way he plays..

Time will tell, just calm down with the flaming.

 

[maxpower1227]

I suppose it would be alright but I can't see any benefit in lessening the skill gradient between the good and the bad.

Like I said, the skill is still present. It would just be derived from knowing when to use a move, not having the manual dexterity/muscle memory needed to perform it. That would make the techs more fitting into the game's philosophy, like I explained in my last post.

That's the way I see it anyway.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Like I said, the skill is still present. It would just be derived from knowing when to use a move, not having the manual dexterity/muscle memory needed to perform it. That would make the techs more fitting into the game's philosophy, like I explained in my last post.

That's the way I see it anyway.

Id have no problem with your method being implicated so long (as I mentioned before) that I could still perform the techniques the way I learnt em in melee.

So then I'd have a bunch of newbs to beat on who would wd and shorthop uselessly because they had buttons for it.

Face it max, if someone can't handle the manual dexterity to learn shffling or wding, even if they were made easier to do, they probably would still lose to someone like Chudat or Azen no matter what.

 

[Kirby knight]

I can't really say much on this since I never learned/had the opportunity to Wavedash so I'm just going to say some things based on what I have observed.

Even though Wavedashing can be somewhat easy to learn it seems very hard to incorporate into a strategic battling style, in order to do so it's going to take alot of work in order to make use of it effectively.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone can deny that Wavedashing looks extremely glitchy with the characters that use it. If Wavedashing in in Brawl perhaps it could be reformated (appereance wise) so it doesn't appear like the person WD'ing is cheating by those who are not familar with it.