Advanced Techniques in Brawl

[Emokirby4]

"In the 15 second Brawl video released for E3... Right after the first scene with Wario, is Bowser not wavedashing into Fox's final smash?"

I actually answered the first time you asked this, but here it is again in case you missed it:

I actually said that earlier, but I tested it out in Melee. Here's what I found (for those of you who are like me and know nothing of how Bowser works [or doesn't work as the case may be]) :
1) Bowser can hardly Wave dash at all ( though this could change from one installment to the next)
and
2) His dash itself looks similar to a wave dash, which is what I think this is in the new video.

and yes that is the cracker launcher.

 

[Syril]

When you main Fox, WD is definitely NOT a trivial thing to do. It's incredibly difficult to consistently get the split-second timing correct. Stop being elitist.

I disagree with this...

Wavedashing is such a trivial little input, anyone can do it.

My roomate started playing smash about a month ago. He was wavedashing within the first week. As fox. It's a jump and an airdodge. I don't see why people get so worked up over something so easy.

Clearly, people are in disagreement about whether wavedashing is easy to do. It's just a fact that some people naturally have more dexterity in their fingers that others and are able to master the input at different rates. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making the input easier. Shouldn't any game try to make it's controls as accessible as possible?

 

[slikvik]

Clearly, people are in disagreement about whether wavedashing is easy to do. It's just a fact that some people naturally have more dexterity in their fingers that others and are able to master the input at different rates. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making the input easier. Shouldn't any game try to make it's controls as accessible as possible?

no, all it takes is practice

 

[MrBitter]

"In the 15 second Brawl video released for E3... Right after the first scene with Wario, is Bowser not wavedashing into Fox's final smash?"

I actually answered the first time you asked this, but here it is again in case you missed it:

ty for the input Emo... Sorry I missed it the first time.

 

[psicicle]

Clearly, people are in disagreement about whether wavedashing is easy to do. It's just a fact that some people naturally have more dexterity in their fingers that others and are able to master the input at different rates. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the idea of making the input easier. Shouldn't any game try to make it's controls as accessible as possible?

There are people who are 6-9 years old who can wavedash. I saw a decent (for his age) guy in this age range. I'm sure that most people here are above that age and have more control over their fingers than kids that are 6-9 years old. These may be exceptions, but either way I think a full grown adult will have more dexterity than a kid who has lots of growing left to do.

 

[MrBitter]

There are people who are 6-9 years old who can wavedash. I saw a decent (for his age) guy in this age range. I'm sure that most people here are above that age and have more control over their fingers than kids that are 6-9 years old. These may be exceptions, but either way I think a full grown adult will have more dexterity than a kid who has lots of growing left to do.

To elaborate a little further...

The whole "my fingers aren't dextruous enough" argument just doesn't cut it, in my opinion. Can you jump and shoot at the same time while playing Halo?

That's wavedashing.

Jump. Trigger. That's all. The people who can't do it just plain haven't put forth the effort to learn, and honest to God, it takes 10 minutes.

 

[maxpower1227]

Can you jump and shoot at the same time while playing Halo?

That's wavedashing.

Uh, yeah,... because if you don't get the timing between jump/shoot JUST RIGHT nothing comes out of your gun.

I learned to WD with Fox, but it was very difficult. I could only do it semi-consistently in a calm environment, not on command in a real battle situation. It just didn't seem worth the effort to become proficient at it when I could be having FUN with the game.

And my fingers are somewhat nimble. I'm currently ranked in the top 60 (out of 600,000) in Guitar Hero 2 on XBL

 

[PIMPSLAP]

LOL i wavedash smooth and natural but thats just fom lots of practice i also swd alot wit samus soo... wave dashing will be good to have back and if not i will see alot of accidentall air dodging... lol

 

[MrBitter]

Uh, yeah,... because if you don't get the timing between jump/shoot JUST RIGHT nothing comes out of your gun.

I learned to WD with Fox, but it was very difficult. I could only do it semi-consistently in a calm environment, not on command in a real battle situation. It just didn't seem worth the effort to become proficient at it when I could be having FUN with the game.

And my fingers are somewhat nimble. I'm currently ranked in the top 60 (out of 600,000) in Guitar Hero 2 on XBL

You are correct... If your wavedash timing is off, you will end up doing something stupid, or nothing at all.

But the button input is still the same. Jump with your thumb, trigger with one of your other fingers. That's simplicity in its finest form.

If one doesn't wish to put the time into becoming consistent with their wavedashing, then fine, more power to them.

People take the time to master sniping in Halo. I'm not very good at it, and good snipers own me... I don't think sniping should be removed from the game, though.

Guitar Hero 2 can be another example.

Learning all the crazy 5 button combos just doesn't appeal to me. I will never be one of the top 60 on the XBL leader boards... I will never be one of the top 300,000 on the leader boards. I don't care to get that good at Guitar Hero.

I do care about being good at Smash, though. So what do I do? I practice... Every day. The result? I can nail every wavedash, just like some Halo players nail every headshot.

I can SHFFL every d-air, and combo the hell out of my opponents, just like some Guitar Hero players finishing Jordan on Expert.

Every popular video game in the world has casual players and hard core players. Big dog FPS players go own in tournaments, and piss off people in Pubs. Big dog raiders in WoW get all the phat lewtz, and are unstoppable in PvP. Big dog Guitar Hero players string together combos 900 inputs long, and outscore my noob *** exponentially. Tell me... Why then do big dog Smashers catch so much flack for being able to mash two buttons faster than you?

 

[MookieRah]

I expect SOME skill from players, but honestly, I believe SSBB should be one of the few games that should allow casual players to potentially get on the same playing field as the pros.

I hate to poke at Ogre's old post, cause he has received enough criticism for it and has stepped down some of what he is said, but I really want to address this for all the casual players out there. This is important, because this would destroy any sort of competitive play.

If a game allowed for the casual player to stand a chance against a veteran pro then it would be a very shallow game. In the realm of fighting games, pros are on a completely different level than your casual player because of all the time and dedication to analyzing the game, learning techniques, learning to use them, learning to observe his opponent, learning how to position yourself for the best results, learning to actively trick your opponent, and so on. When all these things (and more) come to fruition, a pro is made. If someone who spent all that time discovering the game still had a hard time against a casual player, than that means that the game is shallow to the point that skill is not a big enough factor.

To have a deep and enriched game community, the game should have plenty of substance to draw from. The more hidden things (sometimes intentionally, sometimes not intentionally put into the game) the more options a player has at his disposal to get around existing strategies. The more counter-strategies and strategies you have the more deep it becomes. In the case of melee where you have a lot of ways to limit the lag, increase maneuverability, as well as all sorts of offensive and defensive techniques/strategies, you can really see why this game is extremely deep and allows for a lot of potential.

In Smash, L-cancelling is just an extra button press that you're forced to work into your play style for the sake of staying competitive. It's really like creating an artificial skill gap.

This is just the game rewarding you for good timing, and it really isn't that hard to learn, even easier than wavedashing for the most part. I would rather it be in than not, because it allows for mistakes to occur that slow down you or your opponent, this is good because smash is all about punishing your opponents mistakes.

It just didn't seem worth the effort to become proficient at it when I could be having FUN with the game.

If that is your stand point, then that is ok. Nobody is forcing you to play competitively or to play melee at all. If you are bitter that because of that you won't be good enough to play it competitively, realize that while you thought it wasn't worth the time other people did put in the effort. Competitive play requires a lot of time learning techniques, and if it isn't worth it for you that just means you aren't really cut out for competitive play. Don't be upset at the people who enjoy the game as well as learning all it's nuances just because you don't.

As far as the competitive community being elitist: We are and we aren't. A lot of the things we discuss about the metagame and a lot of the stuff that we try to debate are hard to understand to it's fullest without having an understanding that comes from actually using it and having it used against you. When we argue back, constantly, over the same points that had no logic or truth behind it, it tends to get you a bit flustered. Some members (I put myself in this category) have turned to being pretty sarcastic in our responses and slap people dumb with our logic. Keep in mind, we tend to only do this to people who post nonsense and tend to be "elitist" themselves.

Honestly, most people who have claimed us to be elitists were elitists themselves. The concept that a lot of casual players simply want to take things out so they could beat pros, or that the good players actually "fear" the casual players from beating us is ridiculous. Unless Brawl sucks, I'm going to **** casual players. You know why? I regularly beat 3 casual players vs my CF all the time. It's fun, and it honestly becomes somewhat even with 3 opponents. I'm not afraid of casual players in the least, that is the last of my concern.

 

[Jumanji]

The argument that it is difficult is
1) exagerated. It isn't difficult to learn to wavedash, it is just difficult to fit it into your game after not using it for so long. Many of the times when you SHOULD be wavedashing you have already for a different way to react, or you have to think first before wavedashing and it slows your reaction speed to the point of being a bad thing.
2) irrelevant. There are alot of of hard things in smash. Have you tried shine spiking a moving firefox, how about an illusion? Have you tried Pillaring, or finding the pivot frame in the DD? Have you tried SHFFLing or doing an effect DJC? All of these are technical skills that are harder than wavedashing, very much so it most cases. And the truth is using any of them effectively is much harder than learning the technical ability involved in doing them. Get over it, have fun with how you play the game, or be willing to work to improve. If you do not think games should be work that is just fine, but it means you won't play them at a competitive level, it is the same way with sports and the same way with life, get over it.
Edit: Your right Pimpslab, but jeez I could write pages listing all the techniques that are harder than wavedashing.
In regards to the 1) topic: If you want to pick wavedashing up play Luigi. He is virtually useless with out wavedashing and it will force you to learn it. Will probaby take you a week, maybe two, and it will be fun, he is a fun charecter.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

mastering up b dr mario canceling and swd to the catagory as well my friend...

 

[maxpower1227]

Guitar Hero 2 can be another example.

Learning all the crazy 5 button combos just doesn't appeal to me. I will never be one of the top 60 on the XBL leader boards... I will never be one of the top 300,000 on the leader boards. I don't care to get that good at Guitar Hero.

I do care about being good at Smash, though. So what do I do? I practice... Every day. The result? I can nail every wavedash, just like some Halo players nail every headshot.

What's funny though, is that I've played Smash LITERALLY 100x as much as Guitar Hero 2.

And it's difficulty isn't really the reason that I want it out. I want it out because it's an exploit of the game's physics and isn't natural - i.e., it's something that would seem stupid if it actually had a dedicated button and had been in the instruction book from day 1 (really, you can't deny that). I was just responding to people scoffing and saying that it's so easy a 5 year old could do it.

 

[Takeshi245]

What's funny though, is that I've played Smash LITERALLY 100x as much as Guitar Hero 2.

And it's difficulty isn't really the reason that I want it out. I want it out because it's an exploit of the game's physics and isn't natural - i.e., it's something that would seem stupid if it actually had a dedicated button and had been in the instruction book from day 1 (really, you can't deny that). I was just responding to people scoffing and saying that it's so easy a 5 year old could do it.

No one's forcing you to wavedash. Besides, as I said before, wavedashing was intended in the game by the developers so that if you air-dodge, you slide on the ground. Most of us aren't suggesting to remove what fun you have with casual play, so why do it to us? Besides, I believe it's already too late for your request anyway since wavedashing is probably implemented in Brawl since it's just a revamping of the Melee engine. Anyway, there are other important techniques besides wavedashing. If you can't wavedash and/or don't like wavedashing, don't use it and stop with saying that wavedashing shouldn't be in the game to ruin it for other players. Just stick with playing your friends, alright?

 

[MrBitter]

What's funny though, is that I've played Smash LITERALLY 100x as much as Guitar Hero 2.

And it's difficulty isn't really the reason that I want it out. I want it out because it's an exploit of the game's physics and isn't natural - i.e., it's something that would seem stupid if it actually had a dedicated button and had been in the instruction book from day 1 (really, you can't deny that). I was just responding to people scoffing and saying that it's so easy a 5 year old could do it.

The thing about unintentional physics malfunctions (this is a general statement, so please don't pick it apart) is that most great games have them, and they are what add so much depth.

Some old school FPS junkies may be familiar with bunny hopping... An exploit of old first person shooter game engines. Bunny hopping was never intentional, but it added depth to the game. It would sometimes cause uproar in the various game communities, but it was eventually embraced, and became a staple element of games like Team Fortress Classic.

The skiing in Tribes wasn't originally intentional, but it became one of the games greatest draws.

Fighters too, have instances of game physics being manipulated to add depth to the game. Sould Calibur 2 had a fairly significant competitive following back in its time. A common term in the SC2 community was "Just Frame".

Just Frames occured when a characters attack animation would alter how the game saw that characters stance.

For example, some characters, when performing a jumping forward attack, would register as having their backs turned to the other player for one frame.

A button input on that one frame would cause an instant "Just Frame Attack".

This was obviously a glitch, but it added a whole new level of mixups and mind games that gave SC2 a whole new layer of depth.

Some people complained about it... But again, after a little while the community embraced it as being just another trick that the expert player could add to his arsenal.

StarCraft, probably the most successful RTS in the world, has several small glitches that are openly accepted on the pro gaming circuits. Drones, or worker units, can be glitched through mineral lines to be used as scouts, or to build forward bases. Units can be stacked to spread out the rate at which they take damage, and to concentrate their firepower. These are all glitches, unintentional in the games initial design, but staple to the pro player who has already mastered everything else.

Ultimately it's the community that decides what glitches are an aren't acceptable in competitive play. The game designers will never catch everything. And sometimes, they will catch things, but end up leaving them in place due to either time, or the fact that it adds an interesting mechanic.

Try to embrace gamings little quirks. If you play competitively, they allow you to keep up with the rest of the top gamers.

If you don't, then don't worry about it.

 

[MookieRah]

Actually the whole story about the game developers discovering wavedash before Melee's release is not true. I wish I had the thread that talked about that, as it was posted around a year ago, but I don't. Just trust me in the fact that I've been pretty darn active since 2004 and I'm not pulling this out of my *** :-P. That and I have no reason to lie about it cause I'm on the pro-wavedash/pro-advanced techniques side of the debate.

 

[Jumanji]

Jeez, I am glad you said that Mookie Rah, cause I was about to post the little story. And just to clarify, are you saying that they did not know about it at all, or that they knew about it and put it in on purpose.

 

[Aryman]

StarCraft, probably the most successful RTS in the world, has several small glitches that are openly accepted on the pro gaming circuits. Drones, or worker units, can be glitched through mineral lines to be used as scouts, or to build forward bases. Units can be stacked to spread out the rate at which they take damage, and to concentrate their firepower. These are all glitches, unintentional in the games initial design, but staple to the pro player who has already mastered everything else.

Sigh... I tol,d myself I wouldn't get back into this thread but this post made me do a double take.

Concentrating fire and stacking troops a glitch? How are those a glitch?

 

[Takeshi245]

Actually the whole story about the game developers discovering wavedash before Melee's release is not true. I wish I had the thread that talked about that, as it was posted around a year ago, but I don't. Just trust me in the fact that I've been pretty darn active since 2004 and I'm not pulling this out of my *** :-P. That and I have no reason to lie about it cause I'm on the pro-wavedash/pro-advanced techniques side of the debate.

Why is it called Land Fall Special if they didn't know about it before Melee's release?

 

[dizzy]

Actually the whole story about the game developers discovering wavedash before Melee's release is not true. I wish I had the thread that talked about that, as it was posted around a year ago, but I don't. Just trust me in the fact that I've been pretty darn active since 2004 and I'm not pulling this out of my *** :-P. That and I have no reason to lie about it cause I'm on the pro-wavedash/pro-advanced techniques side of the debate.

Here: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=53863&highlight=landfallspecial

I'm pretty sure that's the one you're talking about.

Why is it called Land Fall Special if they didn't know about it before Melee's release?

That link provided earlier in this post explains it pretty well, but here's the gist of it:

Landfallspecial is the animation used when you land at any point during or after an air dodge. Landfallspecial is also used for any special move that puts you into to "flashing black" aerial freefall stance, which includes most third jumps as well as moves like Din's Fire. Basically, if you're fifty feet in the air and you air dodge and allow yourself to freefall, you'll get landfallspecial when you hit the ground. You'll also get landfallspecial after landing from Falcon's Up B.

What this means is that while landfallspecial is involved in wavedashing, it wasn't designed exclusively for wavedashing, so landfallspecial cannot be used to prove that wavedashing was an intentionally programmed maneuver. Actually, the fact that wavedashing is only one of the side effects of landfallspecial supports the idea that wavedashing was just a developer oversight.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

And good luck playing melee while the rest of us have fun playing with Sonic, Metaknight and the tons of other new characters, online even. Just cause you're too childish to just get over yourself.

FTW.


Lol i love jerry springer threads

 

[MrBitter]

Sigh... I tol,d myself I wouldn't get back into this thread but this post made me do a double take.

Concentrating fire and stacking troops a glitch? How are those a glitch?

Concentrating fire isn't really a glitch. Stacking 7+ mutalisks by grouping them with an overlord so that they move as a single unit is.

When done correctly, the games AI is unable to focus down the mutas one at a time, but bounces between each of them as it takes damage.

Originally intended? Hard to say for sure, but I would think not.

By concentrating fire I was making a reference to the same stack of units attacking as a single unit, rather than attacking one at a time.

 

[MookieRah]

@Dizzy: Great detective work, that is just the thread I was talking about!

@Takeshi: That is just speculation. Read the thread and it will all make sense.

@Jumanji: I was basically saying that we have no evidence that they know based on any Melee debug screen. That said, there isn't any evidence that they don't know for that matter, but it's best to assume that they didn't in these circumstances.

 

[Takeshi245]

@Dizzy: Great detective work, that is just the thread I was talking about!

@Takeshi: That is just speculation. Read the thread and it will all make sense.

@Jumanji: I was basically saying that we have no evidence that they know based on any Melee debug screen. That said, there isn't any evidence that they don't know for that matter, but it's best to assume that they didn't in these circumstances.

Thanks for clearing that all up, everyone. Well, wavedashing can't be too bad considering that they didn't get rid of it in the PAL version, right?

 

[dizzy]

Thanks for clearing that all up, everyone. Well, wavedashing can't be too bad considering that they didn't get rid of it in the PAL version, right?

Well, the PAL version was released just four months after the US version. I'm pretty sure wavedashing wasn't really in use until a few years into the game.

 

[Takeshi245]

Well, the PAL version was released just four months after the US version. I'm pretty sure wavedashing wasn't really in use until a few years into the game.

Oh. So wavedashing was a glitch all along, then? Oh, well. Whether or not it is, I'm still going to use it anyway and like I said, I'm sure Brawl's going to have it, too.

 

[6Duriel9]

Hey Hey Hey! Um. I dont think that I am the first to notice. But wavedash? The videos haven't even shown a shield. the person only roles. No Shield. If shieldings out. Wavedash is more than out. It's history.

 

[Takeshi245]

Hey Hey Hey! Um. I dont think that I am the first to notice. But wavedash? The videos haven't even shown a shield. the person only roles. No Shield. If shieldings out. Wavedash is more than out. It's history.

Shielding has to be in. How else will you defend against attacks? Besides, they still have jumping and air-dodging, which is needed for wavedashing. There's that, and this is just a revamped game engine of Melee.

 

[MookieRah]

It doesn't matter what you call the wavedash. A glitch, an exploit, an anomaly of the physics enigine, or what have you. It is what it is, and it's not a problem by any means, nor does it impose on anyone :-P. Unnatural? LOL, of course. Fun? Yar! Fun stuff in a game with a turtle dragon that fights with a middle-aged plumber doesn't have to be natural XD.

 

[AlcyoNite]

I'm starting to wonder if they changed the physics so that players don't lose all of their forward momentum when they land on the ground.

I highly doubt that. I think it would be too unwieldy.

 

[Hydde]

im sure that they detected the wave dash in the testing of melee....... but they didnt know for sure that it could be used the way we use it now. IMO they just said "hey look the character dashes after lading.. nice, well lets go on."

And im very sure of it.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I quit this thread, no matter how devoid of swearwords my post is, or how humerous / logical the points I make are, it ALWAYS ends up with me getting infractions.

The ignorant people in this thread just aren't worth it. Mookie, you're friggin' epic. Keep it up, ill just read your posts rather than making my own.

 

[GreenKirby]

Woohoo! Time To Par-tay!

 

[<π]

A lot of people want to get rid of wave-dashing and other various techniques in order to bring the game to a place that allows the casual gamer to be even with the compeditve player.
Frist of all removing these techniques wouldn't accomplish that goal, and second casual gamers don't want to play compeditively so why bring it up.

Time, effort and experince always come forth regard less. if you give myself and a U.S. marine the same hand gun... well yeah, unless my close my eyes and pray shot hits I'm probablly not going to win. And teh same goes for that will to reach that level. I think the will to get better and want to gain that edge is another thing that devides the casual gamer and the compeditive one.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Copy pasted from the ''Melee's biggest fault'' thread.

Many people have this opinion wherin the wavedash was ''non intentional'' or it wasn't meant to be in the game.

I would ask you to consider for a moment, the Formalist school of thought when it came to critisizing a work of art, which I would classify SSBM under, videogames to me are an artform.

Aesthetically speaking, formalism is the concept that everything necessary in a work of art is contained within it. The context for the work, including the reason for its creation, the historical background, and the life of the artist, is not considered to be significant.

In laymans terms, this means that once something is created, the intentions of its creators do not matter, and the object itself lives sepperate from its creator and even from the world in which it exists.

I use this philosophy when looking at the wavedash. Perhaps it was not intended, but it is in the game. And once a game is released, the intentions of the developers do not matter as the game exists as a sepperate entity from it's creators altogether.

 

[Pr0g]

Obrian would be proud, if I should say so myself.

 

[Nintendofreak]

The biggest problem with all the wavedashing theroys is that the new games try to fix all those glitches and cheats so it's more fair and even, so this means wavedashing may be in melee all alone.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Obrian would be proud, if I should say so myself.

He'd wicked give me a beer for that post.

BTW : This is my buddy prog. He mains samus and he's in ma crew

just a heads up

edit : how is airdodging into the ground cheating?

 

[Pr0g]

The biggest problem with all the wavedashing theroys is that the new games try to fix all those glitches and cheats so it's more fair and even, so this means wavedashing may be in melee all alone.

Like.. I just started posting here, and I've already seen a half dozen posts which prove that wavedashing was not a glitch.

 

[Nintendofreak]

Like.. I just started posting here, and I've already seen a half dozen posts which prove that wavedashing was not a glitch.

This is true, there is a way to make a wave dash without a big glitch, but It dosen't mean that it dosen't defy the game's physics. So they may want to fix it so that wavedashing is a real regular part of the game.